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Marc Gasol suprised at how Raptors fans view Jose Calderon

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  • #16
    You could argue either way whether or not he's a top ten PG. If he's inside the top ten it's on the boarder but I don't see why that even should matter. Most people who are in favor of him being traded feel he doesn't fit where the team is heading and not that they feel isn't good PG. I'm on the fence. I can see good scenario where he stays and I can see good scenarios where he goes. I'm not expecting much out of this team right now in terms of wins and losses so i could care less if the offense derails for the rest of the season if they get some good assets in return for the guy. On the flip side he's been in Toronto a long time, has always been positive and produces so, you know, I wouldn't be broken up by him staying.

    And whoever said his contract is bad, come on. Two seasons at $10M/yr is not bad. Based on rumors the phones are ringing off the hook for him. A bad contract is one you can't easily move. Calderon seems to be in high demand. His contract is easy to move and it's not like they're in cap trouble. Money should only come into this if he's not in Colangelo's game plan and the contract is blocking the Raptors from signing or acquiring someone who is in Colangelo's game plan.

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    • #17
      WRONG. Jose is the best playmaker ever. He is better playmaker than CP3 or Rose (playmaker i mean, not the player). And Jose will own next six years at least, leading Raptors to rings in a 3-5 years from now.
      The biggest mistake Raptors can do is trade Jose out now.

      "Jose will be injured this summer", so we should trade him right now to get the best value of his play.
      "it is bullshit i don't want to comment.. he will lead Raptors to rings in 3-5 years i'm sure."
      Nash is Canadian dream.
      P.S.i see rings 4 years from now, and Jose is included.

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      • #18
        irgigi wrote: View Post
        WRONG. Jose is the best playmaker ever. He is better playmaker than CP3 or Rose (playmaker i mean, not the player). And Jose will own next six years at least, leading Raptors to rings in a 3-5 years from now.
        The biggest mistake Raptors can do is trade Jose out now.

        "Jose will be injured this summer", so we should trade him right now to get the best value of his play.
        "it is bullshit i don't want to comment.. he will lead Raptors to rings in 3-5 years i'm sure."
        Nash is Canadian dream.
        P.S.i see rings 4 years from now, and Jose is included.

        Jose's injury history says there is more to the idea than bullshit.

        Nash being Canadian certainly is a bonus but he also has a history of making players around him better - and even though he is going to be 54 next season, he is still producing at an all-star level. There is nobody better in the NBA at running the pick and roll than Nash - including Jose.

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        • #19
          It is rather simple. Trade him if the deal values Jose correctly, do not trade him if it is anything less then that. We just gotta trust BC to make the right choice. He has been doing a pretty good job with the team and setting up the future so I do not think I am worried. He has a plan and if a deal moving Jose out were to ever happen, I feel it would fit with that plan.

          This whole debate on whether he should be traded or not is based off of 2 risks. The first, keeping him. He may not play well, he is older, his contract is not the best,etc. The second, trading him. Changing personel, losing a veteran, losing someone to run the offense, etc.

          I understand the argument for why he should be traded, but unless the deal is absolutely perfect, I think it would be a risk worth taking keeping Jose simply because when there is more talent on this team (which is hopefully next year) having a guy like Calderon makes the team far better. A PG like Jose with actual scorers to pass to? He will make our team better in the next 2-3 years. He is a strong veteran presence with a core of young guys. He is only 30, it is not like his career stops at 32. Sure production goes down, but it is not like he forgets how to play. To me at least, the positives outweigh the negatives.

          RECAP: Jose is not "untouchable" but should only be traded if the deal values Jose properly.

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          • #20
            I am one who thinks up many trade scenarios for Jose, but it is born out of the rumours and looking for value (a pick or such to get us a replacement). My absolute preference is to trade Barbosa and other assets to net such a replacement while keeping Jose.

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            • #21
              Trading Jose will turn this team to mediocre. You can never ever find easy PG who runs a team.. Jose is the one, out of three.. Do you really think Lawson is better than Jose ?

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              • #22
                Red and White wrote: View Post
                RECAP: Jose is not "untouchable" but should only be traded if the deal values Jose properly.
                Completely agree

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                • #23
                  Maleko wrote: View Post
                  I am one who thinks up many trade scenarios for Jose, but it is born out of the rumours and looking for value (a pick or such to get us a replacement). My absolute preference is to trade Barbosa and other assets to net such a replacement while keeping Jose.
                  i so want barbosa gone. years ago i thought he was great playing for brazil in the olympics. now that he is a raptor and i see him all the time he is a horrible chucker. i feel that someone who averages 10-15 points off the bench is more valuable if you can write them down for 12 a night instead of 20 one day and 6 the next. get a pick or a player for him and i am happy.
                  Last edited by Miekenstien; Sun Mar 4, 2012, 10:33 AM.

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                  • #24
                    irgigi wrote: View Post
                    Trading Jose will turn this team to mediocre. You can never ever find easy PG who runs a team.. Jose is the one, out of three.. Do you really think Lawson is better than Jose ?
                    this team is and has been mediocre with jose for years.

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                    • #25
                      Something that gets missed a lot in the trade Jose camp is who's going to replace him? Nobody on the current roster is capable of running this team, the draft has no PG that can come in and make an impact as a rookie ( at least that's how it looks, you never know with rookies) and their aren't many great options available in free agency (Nash and Williams aren't coming) that leaves the likes of Felton, Hinrich, Kidd, Miller, Billups, Nelson, Augustin none of whom I think are all that much of an upgrade if at all. Any trade will not bring back a great option because why would they trade for a PG if they already have a good one there? I think Jose being a Raptor next season is something that is just going to happen and I think it will be the best non move B.C could make. We have a young C coming over who excels in a pick and roll offense, Jose's forte. He is averaging 9+ assists a game with mediocre talent, imagine if he had better players to work with? Yes he has been injured in the past, but nobody can predict injuries so that argument seems silly to me, unless you own a crystal ball. I think the only realistic conclusion is that we better get ready for more Jose.

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                      • #26
                        WestsideRidah wrote: View Post
                        Something that gets missed a lot in the trade Jose camp is who's going to replace him? Nobody on the current roster is capable of running this team, the draft has no PG that can come in and make an impact as a rookie ( at least that's how it looks, you never know with rookies) and their aren't many great options available in free agency (Nash and Williams aren't coming) that leaves the likes of Felton, Hinrich, Kidd, Miller, Billups, Nelson, Augustin none of whom I think are all that much of an upgrade if at all. Any trade will not bring back a great option because why would they trade for a PG if they already have a good one there? I think Jose being a Raptor next season is something that is just going to happen and I think it will be the best non move B.C could make. We have a young C coming over who excels in a pick and roll offense, Jose's forte. He is averaging 9+ assists a game with mediocre talent, imagine if he had better players to work with? Yes he has been injured in the past, but nobody can predict injuries so that argument seems silly to me, unless you own a crystal ball. I think the only realistic conclusion is that we better get ready for more Jose.

                        Do you own a crystal ball that tells you Nash isn't or wouldn't come to Toronto? Money and legacy (in that order) combined with familiar people and arguably the best trainer in the world are pretty good arguments.


                        As for the silly argument of injury history after nearly 4 months of rest following this past summer, here is his injury history so far this year in the most gruelling schedule possible:

                        Nothing.

                        After 2010 World Championships, sore foot and ankle issues started early in the year and persisted throughout 2010-11:

                        2011/04/13 Missed the last 4 games of the regular season (strained left hamstring).
                        2011/04/08 Strained left hamstring, day-to-day.
                        2011/04/06 Missed 3 games (strained left hamstring).
                        2011/04/02 Strained left hamstring, day-to-day.
                        2011/01/26 Missed 1 game (ankle injury).
                        2011/01/24 Ankle injury, day-to-day.
                        2011/01/05 Missed 1 game (sprained right ankle).
                        2011/01/04 Sprained right ankle, day-to-day.
                        2010/12/31 Missed 1 game (ankle injury).
                        2010/12/28 Ankle injury, day-to-day.
                        2010/12/17 Missed 4 games (sore left foot).
                        2010/12/10 Sore left foot, day-to-day.
                        2009 European Championships, hamstring and hip issues that never went away in 2009-2010 and TJ Ford was long gone:

                        2010/03/05 Missed 1 game (lacerated elbow).
                        2010/03/01 Lacerated elbow, day-to-day.
                        2010/02/07 Missed 1 game (sprained right ankle).
                        2010/02/03 Sprained right ankle, day-to-day.
                        2010/01/06 Missed 10 games (hip injury).
                        2009/12/13 Hip injury, sidelined indefinitely.
                        2009/12/11 Missed 2 games (hip injury).
                        2009/12/08 Hip injury, day-to-day.
                        2008 Olypmics, hamstring early and often in the 2008-2009 which happened to be the first year without TJ:

                        2009/02/18 Missed 1 game (hamstring).
                        2009/02/11 Hamstring, day-to-day.
                        2009/02/06 Missed 1 game (hamstring).
                        2009/02/04 Hamstring, day-to-day.
                        2009/01/23 Missed 6 games (hamstring).
                        2009/01/12 Hamstring, day-to-day.
                        2009/01/11 Missed 4 games (hamstring).
                        2009/01/04 Hamstring, day-to-day.2008/11/19 Missed 2 games (hamstring).
                        2008/11/16 Hamstring, day-to-day.
                        Source

                        2007-2008 no injuries after Eurobasket at 26 years of age, in a contract year, with TJ Ford playing significant minutes until he was Horford-ed.




                        So Jose has a history of overuse injuries. We're not talking freak accidents, we're talking pulled muscles in feet, hamstring, groin, and hip areas - all classic examples of overuse, lack of rest. Also, notice the dates on many of these injuries - November, December, January. This season after resting following international competition for 4 months, he is healthy.

                        This summer will be the 2012 Olympics and he is playing after a gruelling 66 games in around 130 days. I wonder what will happen come November and December of 2012 - my money is on hamstring.


                        I believe a wise man once said, "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it." Yeah, what he said.
                        Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sun Mar 4, 2012, 12:09 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Doesn't having " the best trainer in the world" in the organization, as well as having zero injuries "In the most grueling schedule possible" run extremely counter to your argument? While your list of injuries is impressive and well researched, it doesn't change the fact that unless you can tell the future you cannot say when and where injuries will occur. It's sports things happen it's not like we are talking about Greg Oden here.

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                          • #28
                            Giving big $$$ to a 38 year old free agent would be absurd. Draft Kabongo, I say!

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                            • #29
                              stretch wrote: View Post
                              Giving big $$$ to a 38 year old free agent would be absurd. Draft Kabongo, I say!
                              +1
                              Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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                              • #30
                                WestsideRidah wrote: View Post
                                Doesn't having " the best trainer in the world" in the organization, as well as having zero injuries "In the most grueling schedule possible" run extremely counter to your argument? While your list of injuries is impressive and well researched, it doesn't change the fact that unless you can tell the future you cannot say when and where injuries will occur. It's sports things happen it's not like we are talking about Greg Oden here.
                                Absolutely not. The point of the argument is he had 4 months off prior to this gruelling schedule. He'll be lucky to have 6 weeks off after the Olympics and the start of training camp for the 2012-13 season. Lack of rest and lack of off season strength and flexibility training is not going to help a 30+ year old train for the rigours of an 82-game NBA season - plus hopefully playoffs soon.

                                The list of injuries is certainly impressive and definitely worth strong consideration to trading him at the first good deal possible. For future reference for you or anyone else, if you go to player profile on TSN.ca you get all the injury history for every player.

                                This topic has been discussed in many places throughout these forums. I have said elsewhere that if Jose was healthy, I would absolutely be thrilled to keep him. The problem is history doesn't support this. No, I don't have a crystal ball but if going with probabilities, I would say it is a high probability he is injured throughout next season with an overuse injury(ies) as it has happened 3 of 4 years when the NBA season has started on time and he had played international competition the prior off season. Combine those odds with his increasing age, then I think there is very just cause for my concerns.

                                You are correct on Greg Oden. Jose does not have one leg shorter than the other or missing cartilage in his knees. However, Jose does have a history of injuries at the start of an NBA season when he played international competition the prior off season. Two different players with two different injury histories.

                                But this is all my opinion, if you disagree, so be it. I certainly disagree the odds of injury are the same with Jose as any other NBA player based on his history, age, and continuation of international competition in to his 30's.

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