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"...the draft is arguably the smallest part of building a successful team."

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  • #16
    Bendit wrote: View Post
    Distinction without a difference as far as I am concerned. All elements mentioned are important. All successful teams who have a legitimate chance to go deep in the playoffs and sustain that capability for a few consecutive years cannot do so without being having a high quality position in all of them. While fully recognizing that having a successful draft is weighted towards the upper portions there are teams who have successfully mined the mid to lower regions of the draft process as well (San Antonio and Chicago are examples)....and is what sustains their continuing success. I disagree that the draft is the lightest/smallest factor to building a successful team.
    Good post.

    San Antonio and Chicago have definitely used the draft to find quality role players in the mid to lower regions of the draft which has helped them continue to compete. However, they have also used the draft to find a star talent to place those quality role players around.

    The draft is extremely important in building a team.

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    • #17
      Matt52 wrote: View Post
      The draft is extremely important in building a team.
      Agreed. But I would add "Important to building and sustaining a team."
      I think Doug Smith is off on this one.

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      • #18
        Lark Benson wrote: View Post
        I've posted my take on this in the past and I'll stand by it: Smith's statement is bullshit. ...
        As I recall, the Raptors came within one basket of going to the NBA finals, and their only particularly successful selection in the draft to that point had been Vince Carter. McGrady was still only averaging 15 and 6 when he left. And that was a draft selection that yielded nothing to Toronto because of the decision not to trade him. I would call that a management mistake. Maybe you want to consider Peterson (selected 11th?) an example of drafting for success.

        The point has been made that you trade picks and young players for better players, so in than sense the draft is important, but acute management and scouting is critical for getting the right picks (best available players) and it takes smarts to put together the right packages to build up your roster with good trades.

        Obviously almost all players get into the league through the draft, but I believe Smith was talking more about drafting position...and examples of teams who have had 3-4 years of excellent drafting position and failed to create strong teams are numerous.

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        • #19
          Puffer wrote: View Post
          As I recall, the Raptors came within one basket of going to the NBA finals, and their only particularly successful selection in the draft to that point had been Vince Carter. McGrady was still only averaging 15 and 6 when he left. And that was a draft selection that yielded nothing to Toronto because of the decision not to trade him. I would call that a management mistake. Maybe you want to consider Peterson (selected 11th?) an example of drafting for success.
          Here's what you forget though: The Raps traded a former 5th overall (Bender) for Antonio Davis. They traded their former 2nd overall (Camby) for Oakley. So their starting 4/5 (arguably the reason they were able to compete so quickly around Vince), was acquired entirely by trading away high draft picks.

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          • #20
            Puffer wrote: View Post
            As I recall, the Raptors came within one basket of going to the NBA finals.
            Hah, I wish. Basket away from the Eastern Conference Finals.
            Mind you, I think they would've beaten the Bucks that year in the Conf. Finals.

            Lark Benson wrote: View Post
            Here's what you forget though: The Raps traded a former 5th overall (Bender) for Antonio Davis. They traded their former 2nd overall (Camby) for Oakley. So their starting 4/5 (arguably the reason they were able to compete so quickly around Vince), was acquired entirely by trading away high draft picks.
            Nice point.

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            • #21
              Lark Benson wrote: View Post
              Here's what you forget though: The Raps traded a former 5th overall (Bender) for Antonio Davis. They traded their former 2nd overall (Camby) for Oakley. So their starting 4/5 (arguably the reason they were able to compete so quickly around Vince), was acquired entirely by trading away high draft picks.
              And how long was that success sustained? In the blink of any eye they were pathetic again.

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              • #22
                Apollo wrote: View Post
                And how long was that success sustained? In the blink of any eye they were pathetic again.
                Nice return.

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                • #23
                  Apollo wrote: View Post
                  And how long was that success sustained? In the blink of any eye they were pathetic again.
                  Well sure, but look at what actually happened. McGrady left, Okaley got traded and VC and A. Davic started having injury issues. They had a taste of success by drafting well, then a combination of bad luck and bad management knocked them back down to earth. Either way, the only real success the franchise has ever tasted was built on the back of the draft.

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                  • #24
                    I think Trades, Drafting, Coaching, Management all play an equal part.

                    If you only have trades, then you have the early days of the Mark Cuban Mavericks. (Or Championship Boston Celtics.)

                    If you only have Drafting, then you're left with the Sacremento Kings. (Or playoff Bound Timberwolves.)

                    If you only have Coaching, you're left with the Flip Saunders Wizards.


                    Thats what makes the NBA fun. Is that ANY combination of the above, can net you ANY combination of success.

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                    • #25
                      Lark Benson wrote: View Post
                      Well sure, but look at what actually happened. McGrady left, Okaley got traded and VC and A. Davic started having injury issues. They had a taste of success by drafting well, then a combination of bad luck and bad management knocked them back down to earth. Either way, the only real success the franchise has ever tasted was built on the back of the draft.
                      Wait a second here, you're missing some key points. When Oak got to Toronto he was 35 years old, well past his prime. He left at age 37 when most players have already retired.

                      Davis got to Toronto at age 31 and similar to Oak, when he left he was at an age where most players are retiring.

                      When Carter was traded the team had already crumbled by Grunwald's choice to try and rope together older veteran pieces developed by other organizations in exchange for highly promising prospects. You failed to mention the reason why Carter was traded. The main reason essentially was his displeasure in the team's performance. It was a lot more complicated than that but one could argue that the other stuff would not have tailspinned out of control had management been stronger and more cohesive by sticking to development, focused on long term growth on a unified front.

                      One could argue had they stuck to continuing to draft well and focusing on committing to a plan and optimizing their strategies to serve that plan they might have eventually built something that could survive a stretch of bad luck.

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                      • #26
                        joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                        I think Trades, Drafting, Coaching, Management all play an equal part.

                        If you only have trades, then you have the early days of the Mark Cuban Mavericks. (Or Championship Boston Celtics.)

                        If you only have Drafting, then you're left with the Sacremento Kings. (Or playoff Bound Timberwolves.)

                        If you only have Coaching, you're left with the Flip Saunders Wizards.


                        Thats what makes the NBA fun. Is that ANY combination of the above, can net you ANY combination of success.
                        We have coaching and Drafting. So i say thats a good combo, i say we become a deep playoff team in a season or 2.

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                        • #27
                          Apollo wrote: View Post
                          One could argue had they stuck to continuing to draft well and focusing on committing to a plan and optimizing their strategies to serve that plan they might have eventually built something that could survive a stretch of bad luck.
                          Fully agree. I was only trying to counter the point that the Raps had success without drafting well, which I disagree with.

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                          • #28
                            ceez wrote: View Post
                            Doug Smith is an idiot.
                            He's a puppet. An idiot of a puppet. That's it.
                            “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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                            • #29
                              Lark Benson wrote: View Post
                              ... Either way, the only real success the franchise has ever tasted was built on the back of the draft.
                              I would say trading away Bender was more management then having a good piece acquired in the draft. Bender was the walking definition of suckage.

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                              • #30
                                "...the draft is arguably the smallest part of building a successful team."
                                in one way, i think the statement is total horseshit, because it is, in fact, total horseshit.

                                and in another way, i think the statement has some truth to it, because you are all arguing about it

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