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Who should the Raptors target as their SF next season?: Raps eye AI/Gay (36)

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  • #31
    thead wrote: View Post
    I might be the only person that thinks Kleiza will be REALLY good this year. Everyone seems to ignore the fact that he just got back from microfracture surgery. Kleiza could average 17pts 7rebs in starters minutes.
    Maybe not the only person -- clearly BC thinks he's good enough to warrant 4.6 mil a year. I, personally, can't STAND Kleiza as a player. I think he could play the absolute best ball of his career and still be an ineffective NBA 3.

    I suppose if I'm going to make grand sweeping claims I should provide some reasons:
    1) He can't post up. I've always found this kind of funny/ironic since that's part of what he was lauded for when he was signed. I still don't understand why Casey calls him one of our best low post options (maybe it's because he's being contrasted with Bargs?). Almost every time Kleiza gets the ball in the post, he uses a few dribbles to back his man down (usually, without success) picks the ball up, gives one terrible shoulder fake, and then pivots RIGHT INTO THE HELP DEFENSE for a lazy hook shot that gets swatted 90% of the time, and misses the other 10%.

    2) He is slow as molasses. It's brutal to watch, because the fact is, he's as slow in the open court as in the half court. That is, he's not just straight line slow, he has NO first step. A defender like Allen or Battier could give him a 2s head start and still take a charge. It's actually too bad that he's not a good post player, because I think part of the reason he's as slow as he is is his size. Unfortunately, this size doesn't make him an effective 4 (it's horizontal, not vertical size if you know what I mean) and it certainly doesn't make him an effective 3, as far as speed and quickness go.

    3) Which brings us to his defense. As a slow 3 or an undersized 4, the odds are stacked against him to begin with. Unfortunately, he doesn't make up for it with great length, great motor, or great instinct. Anyways, there's only so many ways you can describe a bad defender, they come a dime a dozen, and Kleiza is one of them.

    If you're still not convinced, here are his career averages:
    MPG FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG PPG

    20.1 .441 .337 .759 3.6 .8 .4 .2 8.8

    And for the record, most people get worse after microfracture surgery -- not better.

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    • #32
      btw, sorry if that came across as a rant. It wasn't meant to be. I just really, really don't think Kleiza is the solution (1st second or 3rd string) at the 3.

      Comment


      • #33
        Some thoughts on dangling the pick to acquire a SF. My apologies if it comes across as a ramble but I hope the drift is understood.

        I dont want to give up the 8th pick (needed for Gay deal) unless it were to move up in the draft (MKG or TRob...difference making players). To be fair, Iam also of the opinion that while Gay is a good player I think the Grizz overpaid him. His contract reminds me of the Atlanta Johnson deal which is of course even more onerous. It would also be a bit hypocritical since I was of similar opinion regarding Bosh. Actually I think Gay is better value than Bosh!

        Our immediate window to get respectable actually extends all the way to the next trade deadline not just this July...and I feel with cap space retention we should have better opportunities when others are capped. Of course I want to have a competitive team but I also want a sustainable one over the long haul. The free agent class for SFs is pitifully meagre this year and will drive up the asking price both for FAs and trades for a player like Gay. I would rather attack upgrading the guards or acquire the SF in the draft. I am also on for a "package" signing of Nash & Grant Hill (if they will). They are good friends and might relish the idea of continuing to play together. While such a signing will eat up the cap space it will also come free in similar time. I mention this only as an option to giving up the pick.This gives the team more time (over the next year) to explore trade acquisition of younger talent for those positions rather than rushing into inflexible positioning vis the cap. These of course should be at best 2-3 yr deals. Hill will be 40!! but seems to follow the Nash method of conditioning. Kirilenko is another possibility. Such players also offer the veteran/star deficit on the team. One other point not discussed that I have seen is incorporating at least 2 rooks into the mix (JV & the 8th). If JV turns out what most hope he will and we have a Lillard with a Nash...all of them could change the dynamic on the team where JJ, Kleiza and even DD could be unlocked into better players. We need to play that out (to the next trade deadline at least) before trading them. We might already have those pieces we seek. Of course, I am being orthodox that having a very good PG and C and the team as a whole improves....even with marginal talent which can be tinkered with.

        I want to be optimistic that going forward we shall not be picking in the lottery for a while so I want the best possible value for it here (which also translates into a controllable asset for the next few years). If we stay at 8 I am leaning towards Lillard unless one of the usual suspects happen to fall. I understand Portland is considering him at 6 but they as well have many needs.

        I am of course advocating a slower approach to talent acquisition which is of course not wholly popular on the forum. I just dont want rush and buy high while possibly extending the timeline to "respectability" out 1-2 yrs. rather than immediately. Sorry for the buzzkill.

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        • #34
          themasao wrote: View Post
          btw, sorry if that came across as a rant. It wasn't meant to be. I just really, really don't think Kleiza is the solution (1st second or 3rd string) at the 3.
          Kleiza should remain 3 string bench scrub. Only good he can do at this point is Translate for JV lol.
          Seriously though, we shouldn't trade Derozan because we do not know his real value yet. I've had my money on him since day one. Although I don't think hes untouchable if the right deal comes along. I'm also very pleased with James Johnson's Development so far. Hes getting a chance in Toronto and hes putting it to good use for example Working on his shot, ability to facilitate and play good defense. If I was BC, id offer Rudy a 5 year 80 million dollar contract. If that doesn't work out, I'd consider some of the RFA Matt mentioned specifically Mayo, Rush, Delfino (it would be amazing to see him back). Finally Id look to add talent from the draft especially with the 8th pick drafting a Jeremy Lamb or Harrison Barnes if hes available. On the other hand if i was BC I'd be willing to trade the pick in order to add a proven veteran that fits the mold.
          We all make mistakes... Tanking is not the answer.. This squad can ball! Let it roll!!

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          • #35
            themasao wrote: View Post
            Almost every time Kleiza gets the ball in the post, he uses a few dribbles to back his man down (usually, without success) picks the ball up, gives one terrible shoulder fake, and then pivots RIGHT INTO THE HELP DEFENSE for a lazy hook shot that gets swatted 90% of the time, and misses the other 10%.
            I wholeheartedly agree, although you made a shameful omission, Themasao: you forgot about all the travelling calls! Allow me to readjust your figures: 40% get swatted away, 50% he gets called for not DRAGGING his pivot foot so much as MOVING IT TO ANOTHER COUNTRY, 5% of the time he misses the shot and...and let's give the guy some love, here...5% of the time he makes the shot.

            Comment


            • #36
              Raps Shopping pick. Eyeing gay/iggy and nash

              Just read this article. Seems to say what a lot of people here are hoping will actually happen.

              http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...ck-for-forward

              The Toronto Raptors know exactly what they want out of the 2012 NBA draft:

              An established, athletic wing man.

              And that's why the Raptors have already made it known to rival teams that their lottery pick on June 28 -- No. 8 overall -- is available to a trade partner that can provide the elite small forward they seek, according to sources close to the situation.

              With a slew of league execs having converged on Chicago this week for the NBA's annual pre-draft camp, sources told ESPN.com that the Raptors have at least two known trade targets: Memphis swingman Rudy Gay and Philadelphia's Andre Iguodala.

              The Raptors, sources said, are prepared to part with their lottery pick in this month's draft at least partly because they have a lottery pick on the way. Lithuanian star Jonas Valanciunas, selected No. 5 overall by Toronto in the 2011 draft, is poised to join the Raptors next season after the young 7-footer quickly established himself as one of the most exciting big men in Europe.

              Yet it remains to be seen whether Toronto can manufacture the other assets needed to go with the No. 8 to tempt Memphis or Philly or any other team that surfaces with a top swingman available. Veteran point guard Jose Calderon (who possesses an expiring contract in 2012-13) and young big man Ed Davis are among the players that the Raptors would conceivably be willing to put into a trade package.

              As ESPN.com reported Sunday, Toronto also plans to be a determined suitor in free agency for Phoenix Suns point guard Steve Nash, hoping to bring Canada's former Olympic basketball captain and newly installed general manager of the senior national team back to home soil.

              But if the Raptors decide, in the end, not to make a draft-night deal and keep the pick, they're expected to focus on the top guards that could be available at No. 8. Sources say that Toronto is intrigued by Syracuse's Dion Waiters, UConn's Jeremy Lamb and Weber State's Damian Lillard.

              Comment


              • #37
                CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                Could we make the trade for Gay, deal away/amnesty Amir (package him & #25 to dump him?), and then try and sign Batum too??? If Amir is dumped, the Raps would have about $10M in cap space to go after Batum... I want THIS lineup!

                C: Valanciunas
                PF: Bargnani
                SF: Gay, Kleiza
                SG: Batum, Forbes
                PG: Calderon

                In that scenario, the Raps would still have #37 & #56 picks, MLE, Vet exception and Barbosa TPE.
                Wow. Would it be an overstatement to say that this is a #1 or #2 seed team? Maybe even a championship contender? The amount of versatility on this team is unreal.

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                • #38
                  Tesla wrote: View Post
                  Wow. Would it be an overstatement to say that this is a #1 or #2 seed team? ...
                  Yes :-)

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                  • #39
                    Puffer wrote: View Post
                    Yes :-)
                    Thought so..

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                    • #40
                      I love the way ford mentions this in a chat today (+/- stein's quote) and all of a sudden it's a newsworthy story running across the bottom banner of sportsnet. So many sources are carrying the story that it makes it seem so much more plausible even though no new information has been brought to the table. How many days til July 1st again?

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                      • #41
                        LeeZ wrote: View Post
                        I wholeheartedly agree, although you made a shameful omission, Themasao: you forgot about all the travelling calls! Allow me to readjust your figures: 40% get swatted away, 50% he gets called for not DRAGGING his pivot foot so much as MOVING IT TO ANOTHER COUNTRY, 5% of the time he misses the shot and...and let's give the guy some love, here...5% of the time he makes the shot.
                        hahaha, touchay good sir. I like your breakdown much better. I'm actually surprised he doesn't get called for travelling on jumpshots too, he sort of pro hops into his shot. It's hard to describe, but in any other league, it'd be a travel every time.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Jclaw wrote: View Post
                          I love the way ford mentions this in a chat today (+/- stein's quote) and all of a sudden it's a newsworthy story running across the bottom banner of sportsnet. So many sources are carrying the story that it makes it seem so much more plausible even though no new information has been brought to the table. How many days til July 1st again?
                          LMAO! I was thinking the EXACT same thing this morning. This story is picking up a lot of steam based on nothing. We're setting ourselves up for a ginormous letdown.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Honestly I wouldn't be unhappy rolling with JJ next year.

                            However AI, Gay, or Granger are significant upgrades, adding experience and skill. If we can get them by trading the pick and taking on salary rather than giving up too much talent I would be all for it.

                            Moving DD to the 3 and drafting a SG is also something that can be considered if DD can bulk up a bit. Seems like decent SG's can be had in this draft.

                            If given the choice I would go with AI/Gay/Granger scenario.
                            "Defense wins championships."

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
                              Honestly I wouldn't be unhappy rolling with JJ next year.

                              However AI, Gay, or Granger are significant upgrades, adding experience and skill. If we can get them by trading the pick and taking on salary rather than giving up too much talent I would be all for it.

                              Moving DD to the 3 and drafting a SG is also something that can be considered if DD can bulk up a bit. Seems like decent SG's can be had in this draft.

                              If given the choice I would go with AI/Gay/Granger scenario.


                              I actually agree with that. I will be really disappointed if we don't make a big move, but at the same time, having JJ on the team and seeing how he'll improve will be interesting. he has a really unique skill set. If you draft Lamb or Waiters, one of them plus DD and JJ will be competing for the 2 starting spots (assuming we can move DD to 3). It might not be so bad....

                              Of course, Rudy Gay would be a much better alternative

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                planetmars wrote: View Post
                                Yup.. I'm thinking Wilson Chandler would be a guy we could immediately go after with that TPE and/or a guy like Kleiza (who Denver may want to get back). I really think Denver only signed Chandler so they can flip him for additional assets. We just did not have the proper assets last year to make a deal, now we do.
                                Much better option IMO. Trading DD, JJ + to get Gay THEN hoping to plug a hole at SG with TPE? Why? You lost most of your assets and not a lot in terms of SG.
                                I am OK with getting R Gay (and his overpriced contract) as long as it is only 2 of DD, Davis & 8 (Plus Calderon or Kleiza or Amir or JJ).
                                Remember Memphis is desperate (Charlotte deal -2nd for Gay is not all. At least 1 of Thomas or Diop MUST go the other way; Golden state -better deal BUT either of Biedrins or R Jeff has to be included, otherwise salaries do not match; Kings is the even better for Memphis, but do Kings want a $54 mil contract-Gay's? Probably not).
                                If we were desperate for a SF (Gay) -OK, but there are options: Batum, AK47, W Chandler. I am not even sure SF is our most gaping hole (JJ is very solid on D, Kleiza should finally be healthy).

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