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Can the new look LAKERS beat the HEAT?

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  • #16
    I've been too busy the last couple of days so I'm just getting caught up on b-ball related stuff... I actually found out about the trade from the "Should we be on the phone to Denver thread" I guess that's what I get for reading the newer threads first instead of going over the older ones i've missed!

    My initial reaction? WTF!!! I guess there was lots of talk of Howard going to the Lakers, but still, WTF!?!?!?!?

    I'm glad for Nash, because who doesn't want him to hoist a trophy? Also, if you keep in mind that last season was a compressed schedule him sitting out games shouldn't really be a red flag. Even though his is getting up in age, and is where most nba players are in or starting to show decline, I don't think it is fair to say he is in decline. From what I've seen and read, my understanding is that there isn't any evidence to suggest he is in decline. However, I would say that he is very probably going to start showing signs of decline in the next few years, possibly even this year, I just don't think you can say he is already in decline.

    EDIT I am also NOT a fan of the Lakers organization, kind of why I also don't like the Yankees, but I don't dislike Kobe as a player so much anymore, and actually like Nash, Blake, Metta World Peace (that's right, I went there!) and Gasol. I used to like Howard, so I feel like I should be able to cheer for the Lakers, but since I can't quite managing to type it must mean that deep down inside it's just not going to happen.

    I'm also glad that there is more competition from the Heat, although I don't think we should underestimate the Thunder at all. Both in the Western Conference Finals, and in the NBA Finals, I watched every game of the finals, and my opinion is that there were three reasons why Miami won, and only one of them has anything to do with talent.

    1) Heat played harder, Bosh (whether you like him or not, and I'm in the middle) hit the deck THE MOST out of either team to scramble for loose balls.

    2) I do think that OKC got some bad calls, but more importantly, they didn't have the mental toughness to play through bad calls, or key turnovers.

    3) Durant couldn't guard Lebron w/out fouling whereas Lebron could guard Durant w/out fouling. If your best player is SF and you can't make up against the other teams best player who plays your position you are going to be trouble.

    I don't think either guy is capable of stopping the other guy (they are both to good on offense), I also don't think Durant needs to stop Lebron on offense, since he's going to more than make up for the points. But he does need to be able to guard him w/out fouling, because once you switch Durant off, Lebron chances are you are going to have to double, and once you do that Lebron is going to get other shooters involved and it's very difficult to make Miami take bad shots.

    This is a huge tangent and I don't think the third point will apply to Lakers vs. Heat match ups (although it should be interesting to see a Kobe vs. Wade match up). But I don't think Talent is the most important factor in winning an NBA title. I think that being mentally toughness, and the ability to stay in that zone where you are making good decisions and playing your heart out is what wins championships.

    For me I think that all three of OKC, Lakers, and Miami, have the talent to win an NBA title. If I was going to lay odds on what team is going to be the most focused, and play their best basketball in the finals, I'm going with the Heat, followed by the Lakers, followed by OKC. However, if OKC grows up just a little bit more and if (which is a moderately sized if) Durant can figure out how to guard Lebron without fouling him (again not stop him from scoring, just guard), then the rest of the Thunder can guard the rest of the Heat in single coverage, and I think OKC out scores Miami, anyway in order to do that they have to get past the lakers.

    Anyway, this is all just a huge post that amounts to this. I have no idea who to bet on in a seven game series. In the Western Conference Finals or the NBA Finals, thankfully, it's too close to call! Next few years in the NBA post season is going to be crazy awesome. Although the Heat are the defending Champs, have the best basketball player in the world, and they have a better roster this year than they did last year. So I'm not cheering for the Heat, but if I was forced to set the odds, I would say the Heat have a higher probability of winning than anyone else.

    So did I finally just answer the topic of the post? Then I should quit while i'm ahead!


    EDIT: Although this post kinda talks about Lakers vs. Heat, all the stuff I said about OKC doesn't belong, and as much as i'd like to hear other people's opinions about my thoughts on the finals this is not the thread for it. Which is why I started a new one!

    HERE
    Last edited by ezz_bee; Sat Aug 11, 2012, 02:59 PM.
    "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

    "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    • #17
      Miekenstien wrote: View Post
      going to be awesome. i don't think miami can win with those 5, not arguing your opinion thats just the first 5v5 ive seen in this thread. i think lewis will be a weak link leaving bosh and bron in the paint with howard. lewis has to come off the bench and play against reserves. i think that howard is too big and strong for any of miami' players. bosh would have to be the 4 and they would need a really big body in the paint. i just scanned the whole miami roster (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/roster/_...mia/miami-heat) they better hope pittman can do it. one thing that howard has over bynum by leaps and bounds is athleticism and mobility, we won't be seeing the l.a. big man hobble down the floor after everyone going both ways anymore. if pau can shoot a good % from 18 feet and l.a. can leave howard alone down low on offense that team is going to be sick. if meta hits 35%+ on corner threes career 34%http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/25/metta-world-peace. (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/roster/_...angeles-lakers)

      miami is really good but this lakers team might be better than them.
      The Lakers could be better talent wise and on paper than the Heat now, but in the past so was the Thunder, and who still won?

      No one knows, but I think we're underrating LeBron's ability to guard ANYONE. I remember watching a couple Heat/Magic games this past season, and Bosh/LeBron majority of the time were guarding Howard, and they really held their ground. The Magic had to rely on their perimeter game to give Howard some slight room.

      Not to mention the fact, they do have big bodies in Anthony & Pittman, even though they aren't grade A defenders, the versatility and the great half-court defense of Miami could really make it excessively hard for LA to get any baskets on the inside. Miami made OKC shoot jump-shot after jump-shot, and let's not lie here, that was OKC's strength... If OKC was making them, it could be a different story, but man oh man, Miami was so fast and smart, as an OKC fan, I was just in awe at how much they were getting pushed out of the paint, time and time again.

      To be honest, I think LA will clearly be fighting for the first spot, but it won't be easy against OKC and SA.
      Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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      • #18
        RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
        No one knows, but I think we're underrating LeBron's ability to guard ANYONE. I remember watching a couple Heat/Magic games this past season, and Bosh/LeBron majority of the time were guarding Howard, and they really held their ground. The Magic had to rely on their perimeter game to give Howard some slight room.
        anyone but not everyone, and he is being played by metta. thats a lot of energy on defense, meta would grab his balls if he had too, vinnie jones style. can't have old man wade guarding kobe on d, pau is starting pf and a legit 7 footer. then the other way both howard and pau are guarding people smaller then them. i think kobe could go both ways with wade.

        to me a series like this would depend on lebron doing even better than he did this year and ray allen/shane battier really really hitting shots.

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        • #19
          Miekenstien wrote: View Post
          ...and ray allen/shane battier really really hitting shots.
          Which is what they do.

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          • #20
            Puffer wrote: View Post
            Which is what they do.
            If not the best in the NBA too..
            Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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            • #21
              i think the lakers are clearly the best team in the league right now. they could easily just have nash run pick and rolls with gasol and howard for 3 1/2 quarters then let kobe finish games and win 60+ games. that's not even hyperbole.
              @sweatpantsjer

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              • #22
                Who do you think wins the most games in the regular season? I'll take the Lakers
                "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

                "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

                "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

                Comment


                • #23
                  ezz_bee wrote: View Post
                  Who do you think wins the most games in the regular season? I'll take the Lakers
                  I would agree, but the original question, was can the Lakers beat the Heat? Yes, but put them in a 7 game series, and you never know what the result will be.
                  Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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                  • #24
                    Apollo wrote: View Post
                    I like the Lakers more. The Heat don't have the power to bang in the pain with those guys.
                    Yep. the Heat beat OKC mainly because the Thunder couldn't punish Miami inside for playing small ball. Normally teams can only go small for short stretches. Ibaka/Perkins was absolutely no scoring threat and OKC had no counter. Gasol/Howard is a completely different story - elite big man offense.

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                    • #25
                      golden wrote: View Post
                      Yep. the Heat beat OKC mainly because the Thunder couldn't punish Miami inside for playing small ball. Normally teams can only go small for short stretches. Ibaka/Perkins was absolutely no scoring threat and OKC had no counter. Gasol/Howard is a completely different story - elite big man offense.
                      Bynum is a better offensive player than Dwight, while Gasol played high post play-making. Dynamics don't change, but there will be a lot of hacking, more so when they had Bynum, cause he could hit free-throws better than Dwight.

                      OKC shut down Gasol/Bynum, because they prevented any inside looks. Who knows, Dwight obviously makes them better defensively, but offensively, there will be differences from day 1.
                      Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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                      • #26
                        Remember when the Lakers went out and got Karl Malone and Gary Payton and were supposedly a lock for another Championship?

                        Steve Nash and Dwight Howard are WAY better than that.

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                        • #27
                          joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                          Remember when the Lakers went out and got Karl Malone and Gary Payton and were supposedly a lock for another Championship?

                          Steve Nash and Dwight Howard are WAY better than that.
                          The difference though is that LA team had both Kobe and Shaq in their primes. This LA team has an aging Kobe and a Gasol that has hit his peak. I think that LA team and their dysfunction would beat this LA team, and that LA team lost to Detroit in the finals. A Detroit team that wasn't even the best team in their conference going into the playoffs.

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                          • #28
                            RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
                            Bynum is a better offensive player than Dwight, while Gasol played high post play-making. Dynamics don't change, but there will be a lot of hacking, more so when they had Bynum, cause he could hit free-throws better than Dwight.

                            OKC shut down Gasol/Bynum, because they prevented any inside looks. Who knows, Dwight obviously makes them better defensively, but offensively, there will be differences from day 1.
                            That's an interesting point. Although OKC matches up terribly with Miami, they still match up great even with the new look Lakers. Getting by OKC might be tougher than beating the Heat for LA.

                            Dwight is much better offensively than people give him credit for. He's been averaging about 113 ORTG on 25% USG for the last 5 seasons. That is elite offense, and his USG% will go down. Yes, the free throws are problem down the stretch, but you put the ball in the hands of Kobe and Nash.

                            The biggest problem might be who is actually in control of the team, especially when things go bad. Can Mike Brown really command the respect of those guys? Nash might end up being the defacto offensive coach by the end of the season, like what happened to Terry Porter in Phoenix.

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                            • #29
                              golden wrote: View Post
                              That's an interesting point. Although OKC matches up terribly with Miami, they still match up great even with the new look Lakers. Getting by OKC might be tougher than beating the Heat for LA.

                              Dwight is much better offensively than people give him credit for. He's been averaging about 113 ORTG on 25% USG for the last 5 seasons. That is elite offense, and his USG% will go down. Yes, the free throws are problem down the stretch, but you put the ball in the hands of Kobe and Nash.

                              The biggest problem might be who is actually in control of the team, especially when things go bad. Can Mike Brown really command the respect of those guys? Nash might end up being the defacto offensive coach by the end of the season, like what happened to Terry Porter in Phoenix.
                              Dwight is better than people do give him credit for, but offensively, IMO, Bynum has more of an offensive arsenal, and there's a reason he's even being considered as the second best center in the league. Nevertheless, Bynum and Dwight are NOT easy to guard.

                              OKC seemed to be the better team, better match-ups on paper. Especially because of the big men in the paint. I was proven wrong. Even IF, Dwight and Pau are much better offensive weapons, Miami was able to take away post offense, and forced a very athletic and skilled team to take jump-shot AFTER jump-shot.

                              Miami is an extremely good half-court defensive team, and LeBron is a one man transition defense. I think we are underrating how smart they are defensively. They don't have the big bodies to match with in the paint, but they clog the paint, and force teams to take outside looks. Individually, LeBron James and Dwayne Wade are premier defenders, not to mention LeBron's ability to guard anyone. Did we forget that LeBron is also a big body, 6'8/6'9 260 pounder? The guys is big, athletic, strong. If we are going basically on physical size (being everyone is talking about big bodies in the paint), LeBron should fit in the same mold.

                              Offensively, I don't believe LA has the perimeter ability to guard Rashard and Bosh away from the paint. Battier, Lewis, Chalmers on the perimeter. LeBron and Wade inside, Bosh in the mid-post area. It will create tough ground to cover for ANY team. Peace and Dwight can't do everything.

                              A game between these two teams will be nothing about individual game, more about which team finds a way to guard the other, and Miami has the edge in my opinion. All 5 guys will be able to guard individually, and an extremely smart defensive system.
                              Last edited by ReubenJRD; Wed Aug 15, 2012, 03:54 PM.
                              Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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                              • #30
                                Do you think Miami can go small against Lakers? What do you think their starting 5 would be?

                                Bosh
                                Lewis
                                Lebron
                                Wade
                                Chalmers

                                Allen & Battier first off the bench

                                or maybe

                                Bosh
                                Lebron
                                Battier
                                Wade
                                Chalmers

                                w/ Allen and Lewis first off the bench.

                                When push comes to shove (the 4th quarter of any finals game), will Miami have anyone other than Bosh playing center?


                                When comparing teams I always like to match up position to position and see who I think is better at that match up. If we take the first line up I put up (feel free to call me on it, if you think they are likely to run with a different starting 5) then here's the match up (the player I think wins the match up in brackets)

                                Dwight vs. Bosh (Dwight)
                                Gasol vs. Lewis (Gasol)
                                Metta vs. Lebron (Lebron)
                                Kobe vs. Wade (push)
                                Nash vs. Chalmers (Nash)

                                figure I'll do with the other line up as well

                                Dwight vs. Bosh (Dwight)
                                Gasol vs. Lebron (Lebron)
                                Metta vs. Battier (push?)
                                Kobe vs. Wade (push)
                                Nash vs. Chalmers (Nash)

                                anyway not sure if this is useful at all (pretty sure it isn't). I think you have to different styles of play and the team that wins is going to be the team that is able to impose their will on the game. Match ups like these are the reason they have to play the game.

                                I only wish that there was more competition in the East. The west has 3 legit teams LAL SAS OKC, with a couple of other teams that could get to the conference finals with a bit of luck LAC MEM.

                                Without a season ending injury to Lebron, can you imagine anyone in the East beating Miami in a 7 game series? They've beat the Celtics the last two years, and I don't think Boston is better this year (although having bradley back could be a difference maker). Orlando lost dwight, Chicago may not have rose at all, or if they do he'll be coming off a serious injury. Atlanta didn't get better. Does anyone think that the Pacers could squeek out 4 games in a seven game series? Did I leave anyone else out? NY/Brooklyn?

                                Maybe I shouldn't post in this thread because I always seem to go off on tangents, but it seems like you could move miami to the western conference and have a two tiered league, like an "A" league (Western Conference) and a "B" League (Eastern Conference). The West has been better than the East for soooo long, that I'm starting to wonder if there's some kind of advantage in playing in the western conference, like maybe you play better at 4pm than you would at 7pm, or you play better at 7pm than you would at 10pm?

                                anyway tangent over.
                                "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

                                "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

                                "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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