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The lingering question... Which PF goes?

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  • #31
    WJF wrote: View Post
    So you want him to play 4-6 minutes less than he did in his first two years, no room for improvement in year 3?
    I am not convinced Ed Davis will ever be an above average backup-quality player so I have no problem whatsoever if coach Casey reduces his playing time.

    In my opinion, Ed is currently the 4th most talented big on the team. I rate Andrea, Jonas, and Amir ahead of him and all three have plenty of room for further development.

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    • #32
      Hugmenot wrote: View Post
      I am not convinced Ed Davis will ever be an above average backup-quality player so I have no problem whatsoever if coach Casey reduces his playing time.

      In my opinion, Ed is currently the 4th most talented big on the team. I rate Andrea, Jonas, and Amir ahead of him and all three have plenty of room for further development.
      The NBA is a business and organizations want to do what they think is best for their team/brand. If playing Davis less means improving the Raptors, I'm all for it and I bet Casey would be too.

      I know it seems as if Davis hasn't had the right training camp (injury, lockout) to showcase his talent and I think Casey and management will give him this upcoming camp as a last chance. He needs to show he's improved and that he's becoming stronger. If Acy, Jonas and Amir all outshine and out-hustle Ed, then you have to figure he's on his way out.

      Also, Ed is young. How much younger do the Raptors want to be? I know Amir is still very young, but he's been in the league since he left high school which would make him a vet IMO.

      Ed should be PF to go, but they won't hesitate to trade Amir if his higher salary helps facilitate a trade for Toronto's elusive stud SF.
      Last edited by 10 000 Hours; Fri Aug 24, 2012, 08:21 PM. Reason: used wrong word
      Walking like I'm already there.

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      • #33
        Hugmenot wrote: View Post
        I am not convinced Ed Davis will ever be an above average backup-quality player so I have no problem whatsoever if coach Casey reduces his playing time.

        In my opinion, Ed is currently the 4th most talented big on the team. I rate Andrea, Jonas, and Amir ahead of him and all three have plenty of room for further development.
        +1 on the ratings.

        I like Amir more for a variety of reasons:

        1) Amir just turned 25 (ED just turned 23 - i.e. both still young),
        2) Amir, imo, realizes his role (backup and spot starter) in the NBA and realizes he can make a career doing it. ED still trying to prove his worth and likely considers himself better than he is (big and unsubstantiated opinion on my part). I think this comes down to late 2nd round nobody pick out of high school versus lottery 'man dad was in the league' pick out of major NCAA program.
        3) Amir fits in to the flow of the game. ED seems to force everything.
        4) Amir still managed to contribute despite coming off injury/surgery last year. He looks jacked this year.

        Hardly a scientific or evidence filled post on my part. I just like Amir's game. He is perfect for a backup NBA big, in my opinion.

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        • #34
          Mediumcore wrote: View Post
          Sadly, I think it might be Ed because Amir is already tied to a contract which makes him less desireable in a trade, and frankly we don't know if Ed will sign with us long term once his rookie contract is up. Trading Ed is the safe bet.
          Trade Amir, let Davis walk. Easy as that, especially if Davis doesn't have huge improvements. All the better, to make for PT for Acy, and another 4.

          Trade Amir's long term contract, and let Davis walk and have open cap space to sign someone better, or make a move with the flexibility.
          Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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          • #35
            RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
            Trade Amir, let Davis walk. Easy as that, especially if Davis doesn't have huge improvements. All the better, to make for PT for Acy, and another 4.

            Trade Amir's long term contract, and let Davis walk and have open cap space to sign someone better, or make a move with the flexibility.
            Why would you let Davis walk for nothing?

            He will be getting burn when Amir and Val are both on the bench in foul trouble and making the most outta his minutes.

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            • #36
              Matt52 wrote: View Post
              I like Amir more for a variety of reasons:

              1) Amir just turned 25 (ED just turned 23 - i.e. both still young),
              2) Amir, imo, realizes his role (backup and spot starter) in the NBA and realizes he can make a career doing it. ED still trying to prove his worth and likely considers himself better than he is (big and unsubstantiated opinion on my part). I think this comes down to late 2nd round nobody pick out of high school versus lottery 'man dad was in the league' pick out of major NCAA program.
              3) Amir fits in to the flow of the game. ED seems to force everything.
              4) Amir still managed to contribute despite coming off injury/surgery last year. He looks jacked this year.

              Hardly a scientific or evidence filled post on my part. I just like Amir's game. He is perfect for a backup NBA big, in my opinion.
              Interesting opinion. I don't recall Ed forcing everything, but I'd say when he did it had more to do with his lack of experience than ED thinking that he's entitled to it because his dad was in the league.

              Does it come down to where they were picked in the draft? Or does it come down to:

              Amir -> realizes his role -> has long term contract

              ED -> trying to prove his worth -> has no long term contract

              I also imagine the coaches might have been in ED's ear telling him that he needed to be a little more aggressive too. There were times when it seemed he was afraid to even look at the basket when he had the ball.

              Like you said they are both young but Amir has 5 more years worth of practice and (I'm guessing) 7 more training camps than ED in the NBA. So if ED looks a little less comfortable on offense and gets confused more in the middle of rotating on defense, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

              Now I know the Raptors can't wait 5 years to see if he gets to Amir's level. But they can give him a full training camp and a full season and I think he'll be very close, if not better, than Amir. And if he flatlines this year, then I'll stop making excuses for him.

              But yes, I like Amir and he does look jacked this summer.
              Two beer away from being two beers away.

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              • #37
                Mess wrote: View Post
                Interesting opinion. I don't recall Ed forcing everything, but I'd say when he did it had more to do with his lack of experience than ED thinking that he's entitled to it because his dad was in the league.

                Does it come down to where they were picked in the draft? Or does it come down to:

                Amir -> realizes his role -> has long term contract

                ED -> trying to prove his worth -> has no long term contract

                I also imagine the coaches might have been in ED's ear telling him that he needed to be a little more aggressive too. There were times when it seemed he was afraid to even look at the basket when he had the ball.

                Like you said they are both young but Amir has 5 more years worth of practice and (I'm guessing) 7 more training camps than ED in the NBA. So if ED looks a little less comfortable on offense and gets confused more in the middle of rotating on defense, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

                Now I know the Raptors can't wait 5 years to see if he gets to Amir's level. But they can give him a full training camp and a full season and I think he'll be very close, if not better, than Amir. And if he flatlines this year, then I'll stop making excuses for him.

                But yes, I like Amir and he does look jacked this summer.
                That is a good point.

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                • #38
                  knowledgep wrote: View Post
                  Why would you let Davis walk for nothing?

                  He will be getting burn when Amir and Val are both on the bench in foul trouble and making the most outta his minutes.
                  All depends on how he progresses. Seems to be the same opinion on Derozan with many posters on this forum... If no significant improvements, (whether it was said for DeRozan, Bargnani, Davis), let them walk.

                  Originally I said trade Amir, but whichever one shines the best is the one keeping for the future seasons. Although, if we could keep both, I would. BUT, again, depends on the progression. We know what Amir can do, and Ed is still quite a bit unproven.
                  Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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                  • #39
                    Neither one is exceptional. They are both good back-ups. Davis I think, still has some ways to go before he reaches maximum potential while Amir has almost reached his ceiling. Raps would love to get rid of Amir's contract and keep Davis who will come much cheaper but 'can they' is the big question. Don't know if they can or not but if anyone can pull it off it's BC.
                    Attitude Is A Choice.

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                    • #40
                      Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
                      Neither one is exceptional. They are both good back-ups. Davis I think, still has some ways to go before he reaches maximum potential while Amir has almost reached his ceiling. Raps would love to get rid of Amir's contract and keep Davis who will come much cheaper but 'can they' is the big question. Don't know if they can or not but if anyone can pull it off it's BC.
                      You have to keep in mind though, Amir at this moment is the harder worker. Great motor, and good chemistry with every single guy on the team. He doesn't have the potential Ed has, but Amir is one of those guys that every team - whether championship calibre, or lottery - will want on their team, and is a guy that will play good minutes.

                      Most people are going after the flexibility at this moment, but flexibility is supposed to translate to the on court production. Amir does more of that, and works harder for that.
                      Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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                      • #41
                        http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelo...9/amir-johnson
                        amir is pretty inconsistant. all over the place from game to game

                        same as ed
                        http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelo.../4259/ed-davis

                        at work so no time to go over whos numbers are varying more often and wildly. i am all for getting rid of amir though

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                        • #42
                          Kuh wrote: View Post
                          Those who read stats like thenbageek would note:
                          Ed Davis: +6 wins in a season
                          Amir Johnson: +6 wins
                          Lina's Kleiza: +1 win
                          Andrea Bargnani: -1 win (it was -6 wins the year before)

                          Seems like a pretty strong argument to keep both Amir and Ed, and dump Andrea ... who might fetch the most in a trade, as well.


                          P.S. But of course, stats are for losers like the San Antonio Spurs, and winners like the Raptors know that Andrea is our star.
                          yup .. if only we had guys running the team who could blindly follow these stats and make decisions accordingly.. wed be in a much better place ..

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                          • #43
                            I voted Andrea for a couple reasons.

                            First I don't buy into the 'new' Andrea scenario. It may be true, but I need alot more than 13 out of 350 games to start to believe in the reliablity of such a case.

                            He is, in theory anyways, the most valuable asset on the team and should net the largest return.

                            Loosing his contract (assuming a new large contract doesn't come in return) offers the team the most flexibility going forward

                            Eds cheap and young, Amir is constistent and reliable. PF is probably one of the easiest holes to fill in the NBA right now anyways... I'd rather make sure this team has C, PG and a wing locked down.

                            Mind you I'm not a playoffs or bust kind of guy if I was the logical choice would probably be Ed.

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                            • #44
                              Kuh wrote: View Post
                              Those who read stats like thenbageek would note:
                              Ed Davis: +6 wins in a season
                              Amir Johnson: +6 wins
                              Lina's Kleiza: +1 win
                              Andrea Bargnani: -1 win (it was -6 wins the year before)

                              Seems like a pretty strong argument to keep both Amir and Ed, and dump Andrea ... who might fetch the most in a trade, as well.


                              P.S. But of course, stats are for losers like the San Antonio Spurs, and winners like the Raptors know that Andrea is our star.
                              WP is full of crap it doesn't pass the sniff test, our record last year should have improved without Bargs playing based on WP...which it didn't.

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                              • #45
                                Katman wrote: View Post
                                WP is full of crap it doesn't pass the sniff test, our record last year should have improved without Bargs playing based on WP...which it didn't.
                                not entirely true. The Raptors record would have (in WP's theory anyways) improved if everything stayed the same. But ofcourse not everything stayed the same. (other injuries, more minutes given to d-league players etc).

                                Bargnani's value is one variable of many when it comes to the total team record.

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