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  • #76
    Matt52 wrote: View Post
    As for ideas going back and forth and ending up in the same place...... for the most part, how is that different from any other thread? lol

    Regarding Lowry, I can understand the pessimism if that is the view of him. A big part of the excitement I have this year is related to him. I do believe he is a top 10 PG in the league (both sides of the ball is in the conversation here). I am excited to see his toughness and tenacity come through. I do think his style is what Casey is looking for in a floor general (remember Casey was assistant coach with Seattle during Payton's best years). The team really has been a bunch of panzies for years. Good guys aren't necessarily nice guys. It might be nice to have a 21 or 22 year old PG like Knight or Walker but those guys are still question marks. I don't think there is any question Lowry is a legit, starting NBA PG.
    I thought the point of the threads here were to indoctrinate the Republic into.. oh never mind.

    Lowry - I agree he has the mentality and attitude that is desperately needed on this team, but I worry about the level of talent and consistency. I like what I've seen from Casey in his ability to motivate our guys. I mean just looking at what he was able to do with Bargnani before the injuries hit was nothing short of spectacular. But the difference is that Bargnani is a first overall pick. We knew he was talented -- it was a matter of getting him to commit to the level of effort required to sustain it.

    Gary Payton is one of the greatest ever so it's unfair to make a comparison, but Payton was a tenacious defender and a scorer. Lowry has the tenacity but may lack the quickness and the talent.

    To start, Lowry is a career 42% shooter. Payton was a 47% shooter. That 5% for me is the difference between a starter and a bench player and that's the way I see Lowry. Consider this: http://bkref.com/tiny/Z94LQ, all guards in NBA history of the with over 8000 minutes played, under 300 games started, and shooting 42% or lower. Lowry headlines a list of some seriously mediocre point guards. Even if you raise that to 43%, only Russell Westbrook shows up as good one, but he's raised his average every season and should be well over 45% by the time his career ends.

    The other issue is consistency -- Lowry has played in over 350 games and has started less than 150 of them. That's not quite as bad as Jerryd Bayless, but you have to wonder if he's so good -- if he's a legit starting NBA point guard -- then why did his collective NBA coaches allow him to start less than 40% of the games over the first 6 years of his career?
    your pal,
    ebrian

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    • #77
      Brandon wrote: View Post
      MLSE hired him based on Stern's recommendation, because MLSE had no idea who to hire, or how to go about the process of vetting candidates. They don't know what they're doing. That was my point.
      A lot of us have been saying this for years. The Babcock hire was the ultimate example of the failure of the old ownership regime, which led to the NBA getting actively involved in the next hire. The problems in Toronto from 16 years ago have always been tied to weak ownership and bad management. And, under Teachers, nothing was going to change.

      I am prepared to give Rogers a chance, though. Despite the Jays lack of playoff appearances over the last decade (Rogers' ownership) the team has never been terrible (usually .500) and has put out rosters that should have done more (better squads than Baltimore this season, for example). Rogers hasn't broken the bank but they have put in place a solid GM surrounded by a terrific management structure. It hasn't paid dividends as of yet but the organizational improvement in the last 3 years has been enormous.

      The immediate issue for me is a new management team. This one has failed. Rogers/Bell could go a long way toward earning my trust by cleaning out this front office. I guess we'll know soon enough.

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      • #78
        slaw wrote: View Post
        A lot of us have been saying this for years. The Babcock hire was the ultimate example of the failure of the old ownership regime, which led to the NBA getting actively involved in the next hire. The problems in Toronto from 16 years ago have always been tied to weak ownership and bad management. And, under Teachers, nothing was going to change.

        I am prepared to give Rogers a chance, though. Despite the Jays lack of playoff appearances over the last decade (Rogers' ownership) the team has never been terrible (usually .500) and has put out rosters that should have done more (better squads than Baltimore this season, for example). Rogers hasn't broken the bank but they have put in place a solid GM surrounded by a terrific management structure. It hasn't paid dividends as of yet but the organizational improvement in the last 3 years has been enormous.

        The immediate issue for me is a new management team. This one has failed. Rogers/Bell could go a long way toward earning my trust by cleaning out this front office. I guess we'll know soon enough.
        I think that's a pretty fair assessment of the Raps upper echelon for the past 5-10 years, or really since they came into existence. I think a lot of BC supporters basically agree with you, but argue that BC should get the chance to continue his work, since he's really been two completely different GMS; one that inherited a roster with Bosh as the de-facto franchise player, and another that's done a true rebuild in the wake of Bosh's departure.

        I personally thought Bosh was always overrated, in the franchise's attempt to put a new face on a young franchise that had been devestated by the departures of Mighty Mouse and Vinsanity (and his cousin), the team's only true franchise players up until that point. It wasn't only that they left, but how they left, which were such big blows to a franchise trying to grow roots for the NBA in Toronto and in Canada. Given the failure that was the Vancounver Grizzlies, there were some people in media that wrote stories about how the star players leaving Toronto was a bad omen that spelled doom for the Raptors franchise and the NBA in Canada. No wonder ownership was so desperate to unfairly heap such lofty expectations on the shoulders of a young Chris Bosh, who never should have been hailed as a franchise player. I think ownership has seen the error of its past ways, having finally given BC the green-light to do a true rebuild, as it should have been done from the moment Vinsanity left.

        I am extremely happy with the job BC has done since the Bosh era ended, with his rebuild and complete overhaul of the roster. He has improved the team, made it younger, added talent/potential, added character, avoided stop-gap solutions and done it all while maintaining short and long term financial flexibility. Is the job done? Nope. But I'm happy with the direction and think the team is poised for a strong future over the next 2-8 years. I also think the team is in better shape, both in terms of talent and flexibility (ie: cap space and trade chips), than a lot of other teams in the league.

        The Raptors need to show serious signs of improvement this season, at least fighting for a playoff spot, with several of the young guys stepping up and improving significantly. If that is accomplished, then I expect the Raptors to be a playoff caliber team for the next several years, which will be the expectation and measure of success that BC will be held accountable to, IMO.

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        • #79
          CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
          I think that's a pretty fair assessment of the Raps upper echelon for the past 5-10 years, or really since they came into existence. I think a lot of BC supporters basically agree with you, but argue that BC should get the chance to continue his work, since he's really been two completely different GMS; one that inherited a roster with Bosh as the de-facto franchise player, and another that's done a true rebuild in the wake of Bosh's departure.
          Bosh didn't have to be the 'de-facto franchise player'. That was Colangelo's choice to treat him as such. Building around Bosh was Colangelo's mistake, not his excuse.

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          • #80
            Craiger wrote: View Post
            Bosh didn't have to be the 'de-facto franchise player'. That was Colangelo's choice to treat him as such. Building around Bosh was Colangelo's mistake, not his excuse.
            Bosh was already the face of the franchise, both on and off the court, before BC arrived. He was an up-and-coming star player. What would you suggest that BC should have done? You make it seem like there are draft picks, trades and free agent signings just waiting to happen to deliver a LeBron/Durant type player to Toronto, but that BC chooses to ignore those opportunities. That's simply not the case.

            You continue to crap all over ownership, management and BC's direction, but you've yet to suggest an alternative, more effective approach. You mentioned the "OKC model", which I thought was to build through the draft, which is exactly what BC has been doing. He made the best possible picks, so you can't exactly fault him for DeRozan/Davis/Valanciunas/Ross not equalling Durant/Westbrook (Durant was luck - how good would OKC look if they took Oden at #2?). Plus, you have to give Valanciunas & Ross (at least) time to develop, as there's no telling how impactful they could become. Who knows, with one good trade and perhaps a free agent signing next offseason, with draft picks forming a good chunk of the core (Bargnani, DeRozan, Valanciunas, Ross and maybe even Davis), people could start talking about the "post-Bosh TR model".

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            • #81
              CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
              Bosh was already the face of the franchise, both on and off the court, before BC arrived. He was an up-and-coming star player. What would you suggest that BC should have done? You make it seem like there are draft picks, trades and free agent signings just waiting to happen to deliver a LeBron/Durant type player to Toronto, but that BC chooses to ignore those opportunities. That's simply not the case.

              You continue to crap all over ownership, management and BC's direction, but you've yet to suggest an alternative, more effective approach. You mentioned the "OKC model", which I thought was to build through the draft, which is exactly what BC has been doing. He made the best possible picks, so you can't exactly fault him for DeRozan/Davis/Valanciunas/Ross not equalling Durant/Westbrook (Durant was luck - how good would OKC look if they took Oden at #2?). Plus, you have to give Valanciunas & Ross (at least) time to develop, as there's no telling how impactful they could become. Who knows, with one good trade and perhaps a free agent signing next offseason, with draft picks forming a good chunk of the core (Bargnani, DeRozan, Valanciunas, Ross and maybe even Davis), people could start talking about the "post-Bosh TR model".
              And despite what has transpired over the past 2 seasons, had Bosh not chosen to go to Miami to play with Lebron and Wade, he'd still be the (albeit flawed) cornerstone of some NBA franchise today, Toronto or elsewhere. Colangelo played the hand dealt to him, made some mistakes, and moved on -- in what seems to be the right direction... so far. Fans need to do the same.
              Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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              • #82
                CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                You continue to crap all over ownership, management and BC's direction, but you've yet to suggest an alternative, more effective approach.
                When you watch a bad movie do you simply say "Well I couldn't have made anything better so I can't criticize it"?

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                • #83
                  CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                  Bosh was already the face of the franchise, both on and off the court, before BC arrived. He was an up-and-coming star player. What would you suggest that BC should have done? You make it seem like there are draft picks, trades and free agent signings just waiting to happen to deliver a LeBron/Durant type player to Toronto, but that BC chooses to ignore those opportunities. That's simply not the case.

                  You continue to crap all over ownership, management and BC's direction, but you've yet to suggest an alternative, more effective approach. You mentioned the "OKC model", which I thought was to build through the draft, which is exactly what BC has been doing. He made the best possible picks, so you can't exactly fault him for DeRozan/Davis/Valanciunas/Ross not equalling Durant/Westbrook (Durant was luck - how good would OKC look if they took Oden at #2?). Plus, you have to give Valanciunas & Ross (at least) time to develop, as there's no telling how impactful they could become. Who knows, with one good trade and perhaps a free agent signing next offseason, with draft picks forming a good chunk of the core (Bargnani, DeRozan, Valanciunas, Ross and maybe even Davis), people could start talking about the "post-Bosh TR model".
                  You managed to get all that from "Bosh as a franchise player was BC's mistake"? Wow.

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                  • #84
                    Letter N wrote: View Post
                    When you watch a bad movie do you simply say "Well I couldn't have made anything better so I can't criticize it"?
                    When I complain about anything, it's usually followed with "If I had made it..." or "If I was in charge..." type statements, absolutely. Just complaining without interjecting a way to address what it is you're complaining about, is just whining.

                    I'm not saying BC is perfect, nor am I completely happy with the offseason. However, I believe BC tried the best he could to improve the team without giving up every single asset and/or mortgaging the future of the franchise by taking on bad contracts. I also think the team is much improved over last year. The Raps aren't a championship contender, but I fully support the direction the team is going.

                    All I was trying to say is that if you're going to crap on BC's overall building strategy, complain about the roster and everything else, the least you can do is give some input as to what/how you would have liked to have seen things done differently, or what alternative option you would prefer in the future. Pointing out a team that lucked into Durant and built through the draft (which BC is now doing in Toronto), as a model to follow, isn't all that constructive... I'd even argue that Toronto IS following that model, so how/why complain?

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                    • #85
                      CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                      When I complain about anything, it's usually followed with "If I had made it..." or "If I was in charge..." type statements, absolutely. Just complaining without interjecting a way to address what it is you're complaining about, is just whining.I'm not saying BC is perfect, nor am I completely happy with the offseason. However, I believe BC tried the best he could to improve the team without giving up every single asset and/or mortgaging the future of the franchise by taking on bad contracts. I also think the team is much improved over last year. The Raps aren't a championship contender, but I fully support the direction the team is going.

                      All I was trying to say is that if you're going to crap on BC's overall building strategy, complain about the roster and everything else, the least you can do is give some input as to what/how you would have liked to have seen things done differently, or what alternative option you would prefer in the future. Pointing out a team that lucked into Durant and built through the draft (which BC is now doing in Toronto), as a model to follow, isn't all that constructive... I'd even argue that Toronto IS following that model, so how/why complain?
                      Glad your explaing the rules of how one should express their own opinion. I've got your checklist down now - so I'll make sure I do my very best to meet your demands, as being an individual would be a terrible thing.

                      I'm assuming you are refering to another thread (which by the way has nothing to do with my comment on building around Bosh as BC's mistake) Maybe you need to read what I wrote:

                      First off let me state that OKC was only an example to make a comparison. And I'll add what Presti did in OKC is immensely more complex and long term than "drafting Durant". That he got his Durant (ie. his first stud) made it work to near perfection - but lets not try to simplify 4 or 5 years of rebuilding into one action.

                      Anyways to the point, while you may be on the 'pro-winning' side, I'm on the 'pro-having long term success' side or the 'pro-not recycling the same process every 5 years' side. Whether that means winning or losing now or in the near future I don't really care.

                      But looking at this team it looks to me more like the 'cross my fingers and hope my plan works' team. Bargnani and Demar have shown no consistency. Val and Ross haven't played a minute in the NBA yet. Thats 4 of the 5 most significant long term peices on this team. The Raptors record or position in the standings won't necessarily mean much if its not built on actual on the court talent.

                      The 2006/07 Raptors won 47 games, were ranked 3rd in the east, and took that so called 'step forward' - the following year 41 games, the years after out of the playoffs. Why? The ceiling was low and their success was built on the weakness of the east not the strength of their team. As the east got better, and the 'potential' of their players started leveling out, they were exposed.

                      I see the Raptors finishing somewhere between 7th and 11th. But honestly I'm more concerned with how they get there than where they are. So just using those two end points - if they are 7th and we are still questioning Bargnani and Demar while needing to make excuses for Ross and Val I don't see that as a step forward. If they are 11th and one or more have stood out I'll see that as progress.
                      Amazing how much different what one writes can be from what one chooses to read. Clearly thats "crapping on everything" and pointing out a "model" to follow (which by the way is a bit hilarious to read because if I did point out a 'model to follow' wouldn't that be considered a 'plan'? And therefore I wasn't 'whining' - turns out I followed your rules after all. Do I get the apology now or later?)
                      Last edited by Craiger; Thu Sep 20, 2012, 05:16 PM.

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                      • #86
                        I don't get hyped or down on anything anymore. I react to what is actually happening. If they suck I will be upset. If they don't I will be happy. Simple as that.

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                        • #87
                          Pill wrote: View Post
                          I don't get hyped or down on anything anymore. I react to what is actually happening. If they suck I will be upset. If they don't I will be happy. Simple as that.

                          +1 to that.

                          Too much emotion being spent on speculation. We can all agree to disagree and then see where the team is at the end of January.

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                          • #88
                            Pill wrote: View Post
                            I don't get hyped or down on anything anymore. I react to what is actually happening. If they suck I will be upset. If they don't I will be happy. Simple as that.
                            Puffer wrote: View Post
                            +1 to that.

                            Too much emotion being spent on speculation. We can all agree to disagree and then see where the team is at the end of January.
                            Seriously?

                            What is the fun in that!?!?!

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                            • #89
                              It's an organization must make his fans hyped about the team! Sports is not politic where you are supposed to be serious
                              Let's go Raptors!

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                              • #90
                                CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                                When I complain about anything, it's usually followed with "If I had made it..." or "If I was in charge..." type statements, absolutely. Just complaining without interjecting a way to address what it is you're complaining about, is just whining.

                                I'm not saying BC is perfect, nor am I completely happy with the offseason. However, I believe BC tried the best he could to improve the team without giving up every single asset and/or mortgaging the future of the franchise by taking on bad contracts. I also think the team is much improved over last year. The Raps aren't a championship contender, but I fully support the direction the team is going.

                                All I was trying to say is that if you're going to crap on BC's overall building strategy, complain about the roster and everything else, the least you can do is give some input as to what/how you would have liked to have seen things done differently, or what alternative option you would prefer in the future. Pointing out a team that lucked into Durant and built through the draft (which BC is now doing in Toronto), as a model to follow, isn't all that constructive... I'd even argue that Toronto IS following that model, so how/why complain?
                                I don't think there is anything wrong with criticizing a person's job performance without offering a better solution. We're not little kids here where "trying your best" is the only job requirement. His job is to make this team good and we haven't been good. Not by a longshot.

                                He's been with us for 6 seasons and we are looking at a team that has made two playoff appearances and won 3 total playoff games. Think about this for a minute. Colangelo has dug himself in such a huge hole that for him to finish with a 0.500 record as a Raptor, we'd need to win at least 46 games for the next 6 years in a row.

                                To answer the thread question -- if people are down on the Raptors this season what's their reasoning -- here it is. It's because Colangelo has yet to give us a reason to hope. We are not going to start the 46+ wins streak this season, that's for sure.
                                your pal,
                                ebrian

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