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Ladies and gentlemen, meet Kyle "Alpha dog" Lowry

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  • #16
    mountio wrote: View Post
    Not to be nit-picky .. but there is a big difference between being a leader and being an alpha-dog - the two are not synonymous.

    Dont get me wrong .. we havent had either here for a long time .. but Ill make the distinction. VC was an alpha dog through and through. When the chips were down and you needed a big shot, there was absolutely no question who was going to take it. None, zero, zip, zilch. Thats an alpha dog. Was he a great leader? Not really .. to some extent he led by performance, but he was an average leader at best.
    I would argue CB, while a very good player, was neither a leader nor an alpha dog.

    Lowrie, on the other hand, appears to have good leadership skills. Ability to run the floor, rally the troops, lead by example. Thats great and something this team sorely needs.

    However, I havent seen any evidence yet that he has "alpha dog" in him .. that "give me the damn ball and Ill make sure something happens" mentality down the stretch. That quality is reserved for the special of special players .. Im not saying he couldnt develop it .. but Im not ready to declare it just yet (while I am ready to say he appears to have good leadership qualities ... but so does Reggie Evans, for example, and hes definitely not an alpha dog)






    2:30


    *EDIT*

    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sat Sep 29, 2012, 08:48 AM.

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    • #17
      mountio wrote: View Post
      Not to be nit-picky .. but there is a big difference between being a leader and being an alpha-dog - the two are not synonymous. ... VC was an alpha dog through and through. When the chips were down and you needed a big shot, there was absolutely no question who was going to take it. ...Thats an alpha dog. Was he a great leader? Not really .. to some extent he led by performance, but he was an average leader at best.
      I would argue CB, while a very good player, was neither a leader nor an alpha dog.

      Lowrie, on the other hand, appears to have good leadership skills. ...However, I havent seen any evidence yet that he has "alpha dog" in him .. that "give me the damn ball and Ill make sure something happens" mentality down the stretch. ...hes definitely not an alpha dog)
      Not to be nit-picky, but you are using some bastardized definition of what "alpha-dog" means.

      Wikipedia: "The leader of the pack is called the alpha male."

      As in "leader." There are other connotations as well, but alpha means leader. In a dog or wolf pack, that also usually means the toughest or strongest, and leadership is by coercion or threats. In the "human" pack the leader isn't necessarily the strongest, or the most fierce, but frequently is.

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      • #18
        Puffer wrote: View Post
        Not to be nit-picky, but you are using some bastardized definition of what "alpha-dog" means.

        Wikipedia: "The leader of the pack is called the alpha male."

        As in "leader." There are other connotations as well, but alpha means leader. In a dog or wolf pack, that also usually means the toughest or strongest, and leadership is by coercion or threats. In the "human" pack the leader isn't necessarily the strongest, or the most fierce, but frequently is.
        This wasnt meant to be an argument linguistics or the word origins in the english language. In basketball circles, there is a difference between being a leader and being an alpha dog. As i said before, the leader can very easily not be the best player and not be the guy who always makes the big play. Kobe - alpha dog. Derek Fisher (a few years back) - leader. Obviously you can be both, but not necessarily. Leaders make sure their teamates give 100% for 48 minutes and keep everyone in line when need be. Alpha dogs are the ones that everyone defers to when the chips are down - not necessarily the same.


        Its interesting that you use the example of wolfs or dogs. In this case (lower IQ animals), alpha dog is much more likely to be the same as leader (because as you say, its all about being the biggest, strongest, best). However, with people where smarts, attitude and "balls" play a big role .. there are distinctions.

        The most classic alpha dog argument in the last few years was lebron/wade. Until last year, no one was sure who the alpha dog was. Wade, however, was the clear leader of that team. LBJ, now for sure, is the Alpha dog.

        In the end I guess its somewhat semantics here .. but the point Im trying to make is Im not convinced that Lowry is going to get the ball down the stretch and have the team defer to him. If you guys think differently (Matt posted some nice clips and maybe does) .. then maybe he will be the alpha dog. Im not convinced.

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        • #19
          Matt52 wrote: View Post






          2:30


          *EDIT*

          Great clips.
          To be clear, Im not suggesting the guy cant hit big shots. But, lots of guys can hit big shots. Alpha dogs, on the other hand, are the guys that game in and game out have their teamates rely on them to make big plays (obviously drive and dish just as good as hitting the shot) .. one way or the other, the ball is in their hands down the stretch and the rest of the team leans on them to do the right thing. Every game. Once in every 5 or 10 games doesnt cut it. Maybe this will be Lowry (i sure as hell hope so) .. but Im not yet convinced.

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          • #20
            I disagree that an alpha dog has to be taking the last shot, or creating the last shot. You can have a star player that is the clear cut leader of the team (KG for example) who I would say is the alpha dog of his team, yet didn't always have the ball in his hands at the end of games. Sure, you could put the ball in his hands because he's "the alpha dog", but I would rather have the ball in Rondo's hands because he is one of the best in the league at creating high percentage shots

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            • #21
              Raptor_11 wrote: View Post
              I disagree that an alpha dog has to be taking the last shot, or creating the last shot. You can have a star player that is the clear cut leader of the team (KG for example) who I would say is the alpha dog of his team, yet didn't always have the ball in his hands at the end of games. Sure, you could put the ball in his hands because he's "the alpha dog", but I would rather have the ball in Rondo's hands because he is one of the best in the league at creating high percentage shots
              To elaborate your point, Boston's alpha dog is KG. Yet the ball isn't in his hands, but in Rondo's. BUT, also, Rondo is using his ability to find the shot for Allen (Heat), for Pierce, and now for Terry.

              I agree with your perspective.
              Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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              • #22
                RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
                To elaborate your point, Boston's alpha dog is KG. Yet the ball isn't in his hands, but in Rondo's. BUT, also, Rondo is using his ability to find the shot for Allen (Heat), for Pierce, and now for Terry.

                I agree with your perspective.
                yeah exactly

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                • #23
                  Like in detroit Rasheed was their alpha dog, but Billups and Hamilton were their closers

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                  • #24
                    mountio wrote: View Post
                    Great clips.
                    To be clear, Im not suggesting the guy cant hit big shots. But, lots of guys can hit big shots. Alpha dogs, on the other hand, are the guys that game in and game out have their teamates rely on them to make big plays (obviously drive and dish just as good as hitting the shot) .. one way or the other, the ball is in their hands down the stretch and the rest of the team leans on them to do the right thing. Every game. Once in every 5 or 10 games doesnt cut it. Maybe this will be Lowry (i sure as hell hope so) .. but Im not yet convinced.
                    I think Lowry is that guy.

                    All the clips show where he made the shots. I am sure there are numerous other games where they didn't fall but he is still willing to be that guy - win it or lose it. Plus that was just a 5-10 minute look through YouTube.

                    If the Raps sat down for a team testicular cancer examination I'm sure everyone would see Lowry's got the biggest balls of them all.... and likely some of the biggest in the league.

                    We're in to opinions here so I realize neither of us can really prove anything. I am eagerly anticipating October 31.

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                    • #25
                      Katman wrote: View Post
                      His contract has a no trade clause?
                      The front office is smart enough, to not trade for a player who'd be unhappy playing here. Besides, when we traded for Alonzo Mourning, I don't remember him having a no-trade clause..
                      -"You can’t run from me. I mean, my heart don’t bleed Kool-Aid."
                      -"“I ain’t no diva! I don’t have no blond hair, red hair. I’m Reggie Evans.”

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                      • #26
                        RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
                        To elaborate your point, Boston's alpha dog is KG. Yet the ball isn't in his hands, but in Rondo's. BUT, also, Rondo is using his ability to find the shot for Allen (Heat), for Pierce, and now for Terry.

                        I agree with your perspective.
                        Maybe we are just arguing words .. but to me, by throwing out KG, Rasheed and others, you guys are making the point Im trying to make. Those guys are great leaders. But to me, they are absolutely not alpha dogs (sheed perhaps for a small time in Portland). Their team doesnt lean on them when the chips down. When their team needs a play, there are probably three guys in Boston (PP, Allen, Rondo in some order) who they go to ahead of KG. Thats not what I call an alpha dog. Emotional leader? Absolutely, but not an alpha dog.

                        Maybe you guys call what I call an alpha dog a "closer" and call what i call a leader an alpha dog .. but one way or the other,.. Im saying Lowry might be one .. but Im not sure hes wired to be the other. I hope Im proved wrong ...

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                        • #27
                          mountio wrote: View Post
                          Maybe we are just arguing words .. but to me, by throwing out KG, Rasheed and others, you guys are making the point Im trying to make. Those guys are great leaders. But to me, they are absolutely not alpha dogs (sheed perhaps for a small time in Portland). Their team doesnt lean on them when the chips down. When their team needs a play, there are probably three guys in Boston (PP, Allen, Rondo in some order) who they go to ahead of KG. Thats not what I call an alpha dog. Emotional leader? Absolutely, but not an alpha dog.

                          Maybe you guys call what I call an alpha dog a "closer" and call what i call a leader an alpha dog .. but one way or the other,.. Im saying Lowry might be one .. but Im not sure hes wired to be the other. I hope Im proved wrong ...

                          I respect your opinion, and it may be better than mine. And I definitely agree with your last paragraph. But when I think of the teams 'alpha dog' I think of a guy that is their all around leader and the guy that will knock the other team on their ass' if he has to. This kind of reminds me of when I used to play high school ball; I was always the guy my team relied on to take the last shots, but was not the teams leader, wasn't great defensively, and wasn't very vocal. So I wouldn't consider myself an alpha dog.
                          But I guess the term could probably be stretched to just about anything, it all comes down to personal opinions

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                          • #28
                            mountio wrote: View Post
                            Maybe we are just arguing words
                            Agreed! It's kinda silly when ya think about it

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                            • #29
                              mountio wrote: View Post
                              Maybe we are just arguing words .. but to me, by throwing out KG, Rasheed and others, you guys are making the point Im trying to make. Those guys are great leaders. But to me, they are absolutely not alpha dogs (sheed perhaps for a small time in Portland). Their team doesnt lean on them when the chips down. When their team needs a play, there are probably three guys in Boston (PP, Allen, Rondo in some order) who they go to ahead of KG. Thats not what I call an alpha dog. Emotional leader? Absolutely, but not an alpha dog.

                              Maybe you guys call what I call an alpha dog a "closer" and call what i call a leader an alpha dog .. but one way or the other,.. Im saying Lowry might be one .. but Im not sure hes wired to be the other. I hope Im proved wrong ...
                              Well than it turns into an opinion and a different perspective.

                              What the consensus of us are saying "Alpha Dog" is the leader, the role model, the guy a team counts on whatever situation. Kyle Lowry fits into the closing department, after watching a good number of Houston games last season, there was no doubt in my mind Lowry wants everything to do with pressure, the last shot, being the hero, etc. I feel he is an Alpha Dog, so does the rest of the Raptors' organization.

                              Alpha Dog in my opinion has 3 attributes. Leader, brave (in terms of performing in pressure), and toughness, mentally, and physically. To me, Lowry fits those attributes.

                              To your point about "the team doesn't lean on them when the chips down." You are overly underestimating KG and his role in Boston. He may not be the number 1 option offensively, but Boston would not have the success now WITHOUT him, offensively, and sure as hell defensively. I think that falls under Alpha Dog as well. You need him to win games.

                              Like I said, my opinion, and I respect your perception of alpha dog.
                              Last edited by ReubenJRD; Sun Sep 30, 2012, 10:31 PM.
                              Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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                              • #30
                                I hate to be a stickler, but words have meaning. Just because it is my perception that "a glass of milk" means a black lumpy mineral that burns with a high temperature doesn't make it true. The fact that I hear a term, never look up the definition in a dictionary or in wikipedia or any other authoritative reference, and therefore cobble together something that I have deduced from the context I have heard it in. So...just to be clear:

                                MacMillian Dictionary

                                alpha male- noun- singular alpha male plural alpha males

                                1. a man or male animal that behaves in a confident or threatening way

                                Cambridge Dictionary

                                alpha male -noun

                                specialized the most successful and powerful male in any group

                                a strong and successful man who likes to be in charge of others

                                Encarta Dictionary

                                al•pha male (plural al•pha males) noun

                                1. dominant male animal: a male in a pack of wolves, or a similar pack or troop of animals, that other members submit to and follow and that takes priority in mating with females

                                2. dominant man: a man who controls the activities of a group and to whom others defer ( informal )

                                World English Dictionary

                                Alpha male — n
                                the dominant male animal or person in a group

                                Urban Dictionary

                                alpha-male

                                1) the dominant member of a pack of wolves.
                                2) any person with a dominating personality, causing the assertion of or struggle for leadership in almost any situation.

                                Wordcraft

                                alpha male – a male in a pack of wolves, etc., to whom other members submit (in humans: dominant man; a man who controls
                                the activities of a group and to whom others defer)

                                Urban Dictionary

                                1.Alpha dog

                                1. The leader or authority in a group, especially in a group of friends.

                                2.Alpha dog

                                1. The leader of a pack that rolls several dogs deep.

                                2. No leash can hold him, and his tail wags for no one. [meaning, he's not easily amused]

                                3. Alpha Dog's bark is in equal proportion to his bite.

                                Wiktionary

                                alpha dog -noun (plural alpha dogs)

                                1. A dominant dog; a dog that is an alpha male or alpha female. Often used figuratively.

                                Now you can take your pick from that bunch, but the suggestion is that the "alpha dog" is the one that says, "This is how things go around here." Not necessarily the one with the best shot in the last two seconds of a close game. I can see an "alpha dog" saying "Gimme the rock" for the last play, but it that guy has a 24% three point shooting average, coach is going to sit his ass down.
                                Last edited by Puffer; Mon Oct 1, 2012, 07:36 AM.

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