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Time to end the Bargnani experiment

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  • #16
    DoNDaDDa wrote: View Post
    the raptors should have a policy to trade anyone who does food ads.. no more Pizza Pizza & primo pasta.. indian food is OK! we need guys with there ass's on fire LOL or at least playing like it LOL.

    for real though.. Bargs has got to go..hes worthless to this team in his current role.. his lack of rebounding/boxing out/help defence is putting a heavy load on Jonas to start games..JV would do sooo much more if he never had to play both the other teams bigs by himself..
    Bold part was hilarious!

    Second part is questionable at best... What is more important the team rebound numbers or an individuals? Yes he's a suspect rebounder but if your winning that battle most nights is it really an issue? Fields, Lowry, Ed, Amir and Gray are all very good rebounders. Other then Lowry none of those guys can score worth shit. Amir can score when spoon fed by Jose but then your giving it up on the defensive end with Jose on the floor... See a pattern here? Almost all players have strengths and weakness and the idea is to put the right mix of players together to have the balance needed to do it at both ends of the floor. Dre needs JV to rebound and provide help defensively just like JV needs Dre to attrack the defense to open up lanes and the offensive glass for him. The biggest hole in the line up is still at the SF position not sure why more negativity isn't directed there...

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    • #17
      CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
      He scored 37 points on 33 shots and missed more shots than Bargnani attempted, plus he had 5 turnovers and that clear-path foul was a backbreaker. Yes he scored, but his +/- was 2nd worst on the team last night (-9), just 1 point better than McGuire. Bargnani was the 2nd best player on the night at +1, one of only 3 players on the positive side (Lucas was +8 and Ross was +2). The team lost and there were several contributing factors... I'm just sick of so many people blaming Bargnani for everything.

      Did you watch the game? Its not until we had to play derozan 50+ minutes that he started missing and jacking up bad shots. The first 4 quarters he was EFFICIENT way above 50% fg!!

      Bargnani was walking on defense, literally strolling in the lanes when help needed to react faster. No idea how many replays Ive just seen Bargs seem so dumbfounded that the driver ACTUALLY beat their man and you can see him debate whether to react or not.. Its that style of lethargic energy that I believe is contagious and if not fixed, should be expelled from this team.
      The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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      • #18
        Vykis wrote: View Post
        You know +/- is one of the most worthless stats in basketball, Demar played all but 3 minutes of the game (which the team lost by 7) so in the 3minutes demar wasnt in the game the team was +2, thats one shot fyi, would Demar played better if he had some rest, but thats on DC, so dont judge him on +/- stats
        Fair enough about the +/- comment. And I certainly wasn't attempting to blame DeRozan for the loss, but rather just pointing out that they win and lose as a team, rather than pinning responsibility on one player. I was using DeRozan as an example, since this was being hailed by some as a career game, yet his scoring was hugely inefficient and the turnovers and timely fouls hurt us as much as his 37 points helped us.

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        • #19
          CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
          Fair enough about the +/- comment. And I certainly wasn't attempting to blame DeRozan for the loss, but rather just pointing out that they win and lose as a team, rather than pinning responsibility on one player. I was using DeRozan as an example, since this was being hailed by some as a career game, yet his scoring was hugely inefficient and the turnovers and timely fouls hurt us as much as his 37 points helped us.
          Are you talking about the clear path foul? that was on Kleiza not on DeMar.
          Mamba Mentality

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          • #20
            TRex wrote: View Post
            Are you talking about the clear path foul? that was on Kleiza not on DeMar.
            Your right it was Kleiza who never should have been in the game at that point...

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            • #21
              At least move him to the bench as the first guy off the bench... He can go in and be the instant offence which would be his best role in the NBA... My most disappointment this year has been Casey so far!!!!

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              • #22
                Sham417 wrote: View Post
                At least move him to the bench as the first guy off the bench... He can go in and be the instant offence which would be his best role in the NBA... My most disappointment this year has been Casey so far!!!!
                Bargnani cannot give you instant offense. Bargnani has always needed to warm up. If he doesn't get a few shots off right away then he'll be cold and will have a bad game. I don't think Bargnani would do well off the bench, in my opinion.

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                • #23
                  TRex wrote: View Post
                  Are you talking about the clear path foul? that was on Kleiza not on DeMar.
                  You're right, but it was a bad turnover by DeRozan that resulted in the clear-path foul being called. I was mentioning that in addition to having an inefficient scoring night (17/33 and 1/6 3pt), DeRozan also committed quite a few costly turnovers. I'm not blaming him for the loss, I think teams win or lose as teams.

                  The frustration for me is that if Bargnani had put up the stats that DeRozan did last night, most posters on RR would be ripping him a new one for being an inefficient one-dimensional volume scorer who disappeared in OT, whereas people are praising DeRozan for having a career game. I don't care who the player is, it just irks me when one player is continually blamed for everything going bad for a team (and I'm not referring to you TRex, I'm just replying to your post). We could easily point out several plays by just about every player, in addition to many decisions by coaching staff, which all culminated in the loss last night.

                  For the record, I see definite improvement in DeRozan this year, but scoring 37 points on 33 shots in 60 minutes (essentially almost 2 games worth of playing time) is far from 'star quality'. He's heading in the right direction and I'm hopeful he'll get there, but he still has a loooooong way to go before I would say he's rightfully earned that fat new contract.

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                  • #24
                    CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                    You're right, but it was a bad turnover by DeRozan that resulted in the clear-path foul being called. I was mentioning that in addition to having an inefficient scoring night (17/33 and 1/6 3pt), DeRozan also committed quite a few costly turnovers. I'm not blaming him for the loss, I think teams win or lose as teams.

                    The frustration for me is that if Bargnani had put up the stats that DeRozan did last night, most posters on RR would be ripping him a new one for being an inefficient one-dimensional volume scorer who disappeared in OT, whereas people are praising DeRozan for having a career game. I don't care who the player is, it just irks me when one player is continually blamed for everything going bad for a team (and I'm not referring to you TRex, I'm just replying to your post). We could easily point out several plays by just about every player, in addition to many decisions by coaching staff, which all culminated in the loss last night.

                    For the record, I see definite improvement in DeRozan this year, but scoring 37 points on 33 shots in 60 minutes (essentially almost 2 games worth of playing time) is far from 'star quality'. He's heading in the right direction and I'm hopeful he'll get there, but he still has a loooooong way to go before I would say he's rightfully earned that fat new contract.
                    The difference is DeMar also managed to get 8 rebounds and 6 assists.

                    Sadly, Bargnani sets the tone for the team it seems - especially when he does not play. I just can't stop thinking about where the Raps would be with a PF such as Millsap in his place. For all the talk of what the Raptors are attempting to do and the characteristics the team is trying to embody, I don't see how Bargnani meets that criteria.

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                    • #25
                      CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                      You're right, but it was a bad turnover by DeRozan that resulted in the clear-path foul being called. I was mentioning that in addition to having an inefficient scoring night (17/33 and 1/6 3pt), DeRozan also committed quite a few costly turnovers. I'm not blaming him for the loss, I think teams win or lose as teams.

                      The frustration for me is that if Bargnani had put up the stats that DeRozan did last night, most posters on RR would be ripping him a new one for being an inefficient one-dimensional volume scorer who disappeared in OT, whereas people are praising DeRozan for having a career game. I don't care who the player is, it just irks me when one player is continually blamed for everything going bad for a team (and I'm not referring to you TRex, I'm just replying to your post). We could easily point out several plays by just about every player, in addition to many decisions by coaching staff, which all culminated in the loss last night.

                      For the record, I see definite improvement in DeRozan this year, but scoring 37 points on 33 shots in 60 minutes (essentially almost 2 games worth of playing time) is far from 'star quality'. He's heading in the right direction and I'm hopeful he'll get there, but he still has a loooooong way to go before I would say he's rightfully earned that fat new contract.
                      This is the third time Ive replied to your posts, and you dont seem to get it.

                      If Bargs did 37 points on 49% shooting with 8rebounds 6 assists and 2 steals we would LOVE him to the highest degree.
                      The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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                      • #26
                        man imagine bargs dropped 37/8/6?
                        @sweatpantsjer

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                        • #27
                          these days im thrilled when he has a pulse
                          @sweatpantsjer

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                          • #28
                            enlightenment wrote: View Post
                            This is the third time Ive replied to your posts, and you dont seem to get it.

                            If Bargs did 37 points on 49% shooting with 8rebounds 6 assists and 2 steals we would LOVE him to the highest degree.
                            I don't have to look any farther back than the previous game, where Bargnani had 23 points (on 9/19 shooting), 5 rebounds, 3 assists, 3 steals and just 1 turnover in 40 minutes played against Philly. If you extrapolate that to 60 minutes, then his stat line would be comprable to DeRozan's was last night (34.5 pts/7.5 rebounds/4.5 assists/4.5 steals/1.5 turnovers).

                            I'm not defending Bargnani and I'm not hating on DeRozan. In a season that so far is filled with nothing but frustration for us Raps fans, I'm just growing frustrated with posters who evaluate different players with unequal expectations/accountability. I admit that I am probably just as guilty, but I don't come out calling for any particular player's head after each and every loss. Bargnani has flaws and needs to improve, much like every player on the roster (DeRozan included) and even the coaching staff. However, I think it's completely unfair and unjustified to blame this loss and the team's record solely on him, which multiple threads seem to be doing this week.

                            It goes back to last year too, even during Bargnani's "good" stretch, when many posters couldn't accept that he was providing anything positive to the team. It seemed like after every one of his "good" games, posters were still out calling him "one dimensional", "ineffcient", "volume scorer", etc... That's exactly what DeRozan was last night, yet the DD-koolaid is flowing freely today. He had 37 points on 33 shots in 60 minutes, and he missed more shots (18) than any other Raptor even attempted! All I'm asking for is equal evaluation and fair/tempered expectations. Hell, if this doesn't stop, the same hate currently being directed at Bargnani is eventually going to be directed towards DeRozan... I'm just trying to avoid the cycle of animosity/blame towards our own players, based on unfair expectations being heaped on them.
                            Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Nov 13, 2012, 04:46 PM.

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                            • #29
                              IMO, we shouldn't have equal expectations for all players. Expectations should differ based on the position. Big men are expected to rebound, rotate, and challenge shots. Despite all the scoring Bargnani does, he will always be deficient in these categories, making his scoring numbers feel insufficient when judging his whole body of work.

                              I'm not going to have the same expectations for Calderon (for example) as I do Bargnani.
                              Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Nov 13, 2012, 05:19 PM.

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                              • #30
                                Nilanka wrote: View Post
                                IMO, we shouldn't have equal expectations for all players. Expectations should differ based on the position. Big men are expected to rebound, rotate, and challenge shots. Despite all the scoring Bargnani does, he will always be deficient in these categories, making his scoring numbers feel insufficient when judging his whole body of work.

                                I'm not going to have the same expectations for Calderon (for example) as I do Bargnani.

                                I absolutely agree with you about inherent positional expectations. However, in that case, you know going in that a guy like Bargnani is likely never going to fill those positional expectations, so you need to either somewhat adjust expectations for him or balance them with the expectations of the entire 5-man starting unit. It's just like wing players who are known more for their defensive prowess (ie: Tony Allen on Memphis) - it wouldn't be fair to judge him based on the top flight scoring expected out of your wings, because that's not what he brings to their starting 5 lineup.

                                If you want to go with traditional players at traditional positions with traditional expectations, then Bargnani will always 'fail' and will never earn a place on a team you cheer for. And that's a fair opinion.

                                My comparison between Bargnani and DeRozan was based on the fact that they are expected (by management and coaching staff) to provide scoring. Yet when comparing comprable stat lines just 1 game removed from one another (when adjusted to a standardized per minute average), it's clear that Bargnani is widely regarded as an epic failure, while DeRozan is being heralded as a budding superstar. For 2 players who should be evaulated with the same expectations - score big and score efficiently - I just don't see that being the case, which frustrates me.

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