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Don't look now, the Raps are 3.5 games out of 8th!

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  • #16
    Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Lets see how you would feel if the Raptors had serious injuries next season to key players and end the year with 3th worst record and pick 5th in a strong wing draft class.

    I'd much rather finish the year strong and get the noose from around the neck removed regarding the draft pick.
    Or we could make the playoffs this for the next 4 or 5 seasons, evetually winning a title. I think competing in a playoff situation and creating a culture of winning is more important for this team than giving away a lower pick. If we make the playoffs this year, wouldn't it be more likely that we at least come close next year rather than just falling on our faces? It's great to plan for the worst and all that, but not at the expense of actual success.
    "Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

    -Churchill

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    • #17
      c_bcm wrote: View Post
      I thought. When many people were in panic mode there were very few of us who remained optimistic and were willing to say so in these forums. We got rocked by a lot of posters. The schedule was brutal to start the season, especially with so many new faces. There is absolutely no way that this roster is as bad as that 4-19 record.

      Look, I'm not saying this is a playoff team. In fact I don't think we have a chance of making the playoffs. But I do think that we will be knocking on the door as the 9-10 seed, which has me very excited. I am looking forward to caring about raptors basketball in march.
      Panic mode or calling it like it is/was mode?

      The schedule only showed the Raptors were not a good team. To be good the Raptors have to beat good teams. Outside of Indiana and Houston, that has yet to be done.

      The new faces is an excuse. There were lots of new faces last season AND a new coach with new systems and focus yet the Raptors started relatively strong last season.

      You did not mention it but injuries are also an excuse. Every team has injuries yet they don't cause the team to disintegrate (Chicago, Indiana, and Minnesota come immediately to mind).

      The team has done a total 180 and the biggest reason, now that Lowry is back and the winning/togetherness continues, appears to be Bargnani. Defense is better, offense is better, cohesiveness is better, coaching is better. The Raptors also have reason for optimism in improvement of youth (JV, TR, DD, ED) and the addition of pieces via near certain trades (Bargnani and to lesser extent Calderon).

      As it stands the Raptors appear to be the best of the worst and the worst of the average across the league. That is still an improvement over the near worst of the worst (thank you Washington).

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      • #18
        hateslosing wrote: View Post
        Or we could make the playoffs this for the next 4 or 5 seasons, evetually winning a title. I think competing in a playoff situation and creating a culture of winning is more important for this team than giving away a lower pick. If we make the playoffs this year, wouldn't it be more likely that we at least come close next year rather than just falling on our faces? It's great to plan for the worst and all that, but not at the expense of actual success.
        1st bold: We could. But really? Forgetting about the pick positioning, freeing up the pick also helps facilitate a trade such as a recent example Lowry for a 1st round pick.

        2nd bold: One would think. But ask Milwaukee about 2 seasons ago or Portland and Phoenix about last season. And no matter what you do don't ask Golden State about what happened after 2007.

        I want to see Toronto moving in a direction that does not place a cap of mediocrity as best case scenario.

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        • #19
          planetmars wrote: View Post
          I love your optimism, but they are 9 games back from .500. That's still a huge hill to climb. Boston who is in 8th is two games back from .500 which means we would have to win our next 7 games to have a similar record percentage wise (assuming Boston keeps their pace).

          It sure would be a hell of a season if they got into the playoffs.. although a part of me would prefer that they just miss it so that they can give that pick to OKC.
          That's an interesting metric you're using...we're still 3.5 games back of the Celtics and a playoff spot. And currently the three teams ahead of us are in a bad free fall while we are tearing it up and have a favourable schedule for the next month.

          And the Celtics have a tough month ahead playing a bunch of playoff teams.
          Last edited by Gman; Mon Dec 31, 2012, 11:50 AM.

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          • #20
            Matt52 wrote: View Post
            1st bold: We could. But really? Forgetting about the pick positioning, freeing up the pick also helps facilitate a trade such as a recent example Lowry for a 1st round pick.

            2nd bold: One would think. But ask Milwaukee about 2 seasons ago or Portland and Phoenix about last season. And no matter what you do don't ask Golden State about what happened after 2007.

            I want to see Toronto moving in a direction that does not place a cap of mediocrity as best case scenario.
            So do I, but I don't think mediocrity is our cap right now. We have three players in Ed Davis, Jonas, and Ross that have a long way to go before they hit their peaks. Derozan, Amir Johnson, Fields (maybe) and Lowry are still young and have not reached their ceilings yet. As far as I'm concerned, those 7 players are our future and pushing their development in the right direction, which means having them actually play for something, is the most important thing. If we make the playoffs this season, I think that is the first step to this franchise being relavant again.

            The flexibility of getting 9th this year would be great, and you're right, it may help us acquire talent in the long run. At the same time, I think we need to figure out what we have before we start making deals and competing is the best way to do that.
            "Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

            -Churchill

            Comment


            • #21
              I'm not sure if the raptors can climb the ladder all the way to the 8th seed, but I think next year they'll be a lock. This year they dug a hole that might be too deep, but based on how they're playing now and continued growth of the younger guys + the removal of Bargnani, it's hard not to be optimistic.

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              • #22
                KeonClark wrote: View Post
                I've never understood that philosophy about hoping your favorite team fails. Who cares about the damn pick? If the Raptors are going where we want them to they shouldn't have any top 10 picks in the next couple years anyways, let's worry more about progress and less about which year we give our pick away.
                The fact is, there are plenty of good players out there from the last 3 or 4 drafts who could be available via trade, let's say...for a previous 1st round pick?

                Here's a couple of possibilites that may look good in a Raps uniform, given the new identity of our team.

                Jordan Hill
                Harrison Barnes
                Thomas Robinson (nice, nasty Canadian hockey style)
                Maurice Harkless (young, but talented)
                Tony Wroten (played well with TRoss)
                Derrick Williams
                Brandon Knight
                Donatas Motiejunas (get rid of Kleiza and get this kid)
                Marshon Brooks (sweet stroke)
                Demarcus Cousins (head case, but could work with Casey)
                Eric Bledsoe
                Tyreke Evans
                Brandon Jennings
                Taj Gibson

                ETC ETC ETC

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                • #23
                  Hollinger and ESPN believe the Raptors will be making the playoffs:
                  http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/playoffodds

                  ESPN has the Raptors rater higher than both Boston and Philly.

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                  • #24
                    hateslosing wrote: View Post
                    So do I, but I don't think mediocrity is our cap right now. We have three players in Ed Davis, Jonas, and Ross that have a long way to go before they hit their peaks. Derozan, Amir Johnson, Fields (maybe) and Lowry are still young and have not reached their ceilings yet. As far as I'm concerned, those 7 players are our future and pushing their development in the right direction, which means having them actually play for something, is the most important thing. If we make the playoffs this season, I think that is the first step to this franchise being relavant again.

                    The flexibility of getting 9th this year would be great, and you're right, it may help us acquire talent in the long run. At the same time, I think we need to figure out what we have before we start making deals and competing is the best way to do that.
                    None of the players you mentioned have elite talent (including jv). All of them are solid role players or borderline all stars. If there's one thing we have learnt in the past 20 years, it is that you need elite level talent to win in the NBA and the draft is the most reliable way to do so.

                    Hell even high profile teams like the lakers, Celtics and heat needed elite talent from their farm system. (Kobe, pierce, wade).

                    Point is, if we want the next Atlanta hawks, sure...keep winning useless games, but if you want to win, you need high picks.
                    "Stay steamy"

                    - Kobe

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                    • #25
                      hotfuzz wrote: View Post
                      None of the players you mentioned have elite talent (including jv). All of them are solid role players or borderline all stars. If there's one thing we have learnt in the past 20 years, it is that you need elite level talent to win in the NBA and the draft is the most reliable way to do so.

                      Hell even high profile teams like the lakers, Celtics and heat needed elite talent from their farm system. (Kobe, pierce, wade).

                      Point is, if we want the next Atlanta hawks, sure...keep winning useless games, but if you want to win, you need high picks.
                      JV has barely even played half a season and your saying he's not elite. He's averaging better stats than bosh If you adjust his mins to bosh's in his rookie season. I'd say he's on his way to becoming elite. Also Demar, Lowry, and maybe Ross all have all star potential.

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                      • #26
                        hotfuzz wrote: View Post
                        None of the players you mentioned have elite talent (including jv). All of them are solid role players or borderline all stars. If there's one thing we have learnt in the past 20 years, it is that you need elite level talent to win in the NBA and the draft is the most reliable way to do so.

                        Hell even high profile teams like the lakers, Celtics and heat needed elite talent from their farm system. (Kobe, pierce, wade).

                        Point is, if we want the next Atlanta hawks, sure...keep winning useless games, but if you want to win, you need high picks.
                        You don't know what you're talking about. V is so raw and young now, we have no idea what he can become. But I expect him to be one of the best centres in the league, in his prime. And kobe was drafted by the hornets, traded to LA for Divac +

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                        • #27
                          hotfuzz wrote: View Post
                          None of the players you mentioned have elite talent (including jv). All of them are solid role players or borderline all stars. If there's one thing we have learnt in the past 20 years, it is that you need elite level talent to win in the NBA and the draft is the most reliable way to do so.

                          Hell even high profile teams like the lakers, Celtics and heat needed elite talent from their farm system. (Kobe, pierce, wade).

                          Point is, if we want the next Atlanta hawks, sure...keep winning useless games, but if you want to win, you need high picks.
                          Stop spewing bs when you don't know what you're talkin about.

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                          • #28
                            NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
                            Stop spewing bs when you don't know what you're talkin about.
                            Frontpage comment section level

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                            • #29
                              Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              Panic mode or calling it like it is/was mode?

                              The team has done a total 180 and the biggest reason, now that Lowry is back and the winning/togetherness continues, appears to be Bargnani. Defense is better, offense is better, cohesiveness is better, coaching is better. The Raptors also have reason for optimism in improvement of youth (JV, TR, DD, ED) and the addition of pieces via near certain trades (Bargnani and to lesser extent Calderon).

                              I think the real change is that MLSE met with BC and Casey and they said Casey is the coach, and keep your nose out of coaching BC. Now it is D above every things else, and forget about trying mixing up-tempo stuff with it, which has always been BCs style. D works. And that means half court sets. I think that Bargs will also be fine with this way of playing, especially if he comes off the bench.

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                              • #30
                                RapRepRip wrote: View Post
                                I think the real change is that MLSE met with BC and Casey and they said Casey is the coach, and keep your nose out of coaching BC. Now it is D above every things else, and forget about trying mixing up-tempo stuff with it, which has always been BCs style. D works. And that means half court sets. I think that Bargs will also be fine with this way of playing, especially if he comes off the bench.
                                It is all speculation - on my end as well - you very well may be right.

                                Personally, I don't think Bargnani's play had anything to do with Casey and everything to do with his own level of motivation, focus, and commitment. I could very well be wrong.

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