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The Raptors 2nd Unit & The Case For Bargnani As A 6th Man
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SuperRaptor wrote: View PostYou say that as if being a bad interior defender is worse than being a bad wing defender. There is a reason why most "defensive stoppers" are wing's because most top scorers in the league are from the wing position. Look at the NBA scoring leaders from 1. Kobe to 5. Lebron they are all primarily wing players.
The most crucial position to defend is the PG position because you can get exposed off the bounce leading to penetration. For the longest time we all thought the reason why our defense is so bad is because Jose Calderon can't keep people in front of him, we found out that it wasn't him, it was our team defense.
None of the 6th men being mentioned are good defenders. That is not their "role".
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akashsingh wrote: View Postdisagree with almost every word you said."Defense wins championships."
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I would have to agree he would be a great sixth man. He could sub JV at centre, and sub ED at PF. For the majority of the time he will be guarding reserve players so his defender wouldn't be as big of a factor. If him and Amir split the PF/C reserve minutes I think we would automatically be better off then where we are. The only thing I worry about, and it was mentioned by another poster, is that he might take a while to get warmed up and acclimated to playing on the offensive end. He generally starts off slow
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saints91 wrote: View PostI would have to agree he would be a great sixth man. He could sub JV at centre, and sub ED at PF. For the majority of the time he will be guarding reserve players so his defender wouldn't be as big of a factor. If him and Amir split the PF/C reserve minutes I think we would automatically be better off then where we are. The only thing I worry about, and it was mentioned by another poster, is that he might take a while to get warmed up and acclimated to playing on the offensive end. He generally starts off slow"Defense wins championships."
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Craiger wrote: View PostHe's been treated unfairly? He has led the most privileged career of any Toronto Raptor that has ever worn the uniform. Always given the benifit of the doubt, payed before he produced, placed into an unearned starting/high usage/franchise player role, coachs removed to suit him, allowed to underperform without consequence or accountability, and player after player sought after to fit with him
Maybe bargnani finds a better role off the bench, maybe he doesn't and becomes even less effective. But there are a few reasons this team must trade him.
First his style of play no longer fits what this team is doing. Thats just simple. I don't care where Bargnani plays or what his role is, his defense is and rebounding will constantly handcuff this team.
Secondly, no matter what he is doing, he is getting paid 10+ mil a year. To cut down his usage or minutes simply makes that payment more difficult to deal with.
Finaly he'll eat into minutes that are needed, deserved and earned for Val, Ed and Amir.
Bargnani becoming the hero 6th man like Jason Terry or Jamal Crawford is nothing but another hope based theory based on his 'potential'. This team needs to get past this idea that he is something other than he is, a situational role player. Now if there are no other options (ie. no trades) other than to use Bargnani off the bench then I understand. But even then he should just be sitting on the end of the bench, maybe playing between 0-10 minutes a game (only as necessary ala Gray) until they amnesty him in July.
Anything other than removing him from this team is nothing more than lesser repetition of the past and a continual waste of resources.
However, because Bargnani no longer fits in Toronto, does not mean he does not fit somewhere else in the league. Everyone in the NBA has talent - there is too much competition for someone without talent to get in. However, except for the best of the best, situation can be just as important as talent. The situation needs to change in Toronto - it is not only in the Raptors best interests to trade Bargnani, it is in Bargnani's best interests as well.
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SuperRaptor wrote: View PostBargnani has to be considered a step up on the 26 min. Aaron Gray and Quincy Acy gave us last night. Doesn't he? lolWhoever told you skies the limit is looking dumb because I'm 22 and i'm moonwalking on the sun.
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Craiger wrote: View PostHe's been treated unfairly? He has led the most privileged career of any Toronto Raptor that has ever worn the uniform. Always given the benifit of the doubt, payed before he produced, placed into an unearned starting/high usage/franchise player role, coachs removed to suit him, allowed to underperform without consequence or accountability, and player after player sought after to fit with him
Maybe bargnani finds a better role off the bench, maybe he doesn't and becomes even less effective. But there are a few reasons this team must trade him.
First his style of play no longer fits what this team is doing. Thats just simple. I don't care where Bargnani plays or what his role is, his defense is and rebounding will constantly handcuff this team.
Secondly, no matter what he is doing, he is getting paid 10+ mil a year. To cut down his usage or minutes simply makes that payment more difficult to deal with.
Finaly he'll eat into minutes that are needed, deserved and earned for Val, Ed and Amir.
Bargnani becoming the hero 6th man like Jason Terry or Jamal Crawford is nothing but another hope based theory based on his 'potential'. This team needs to get past this idea that he is something other than he is, a situational role player. Now if there are no other options (ie. no trades) other than to use Bargnani off the bench then I understand. But even then he should just be sitting on the end of the bench, maybe playing between 0-10 minutes a game (only as necessary ala Gray) until they amnesty him in July.
Anything other than removing him from this team is nothing more than lesser repetition of the past and a continual waste of resources.
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white men can't jump wrote: View PostI generally agree with everything you said, except the unfair treatment part. Toronto with BC managing has gone out of its way to try and accommodate Andrea to make him succeed and hopefully win with him. Nothing about that is unfair for Andrea. Maybe expectations were not realistic, or at least, were not re-adjusted in a realistic way after his first 2-3 seasons, but that is still not unfair.
It is not unfair to treat a player like a franchise player. To give him the keys to the offense, and to fire 2 coaches before you try trading him away.
It is not unfair to see a guy with his physical talents and bball skills, and expect him to be a great PF. Andrea has the talent and body to be a top 5 PF in this league, hands down. It is not unfair to expect someone to fulfill their talent.
That said, Barg's annoys the crap out of me because I just don't see the heart or hustle that I expect. Another issue with bargs coming in off the bench is that great six men are seen as spark plugs for their team (you can throw barbosa in that category as well) but you'd be hard pressed to fit the phrase "bargnani is," with "an energy player" in the same sentence without the word "not" .
But yes, Barg's will probably give us more than either Gray or Acy. But if that is all we expect of him, that 11 mill/season is a pretty heavy weight."They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014
"I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015
"We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon
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thead wrote: View Postwhy is this thread still going I thought I quashed it in post 12"They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014
"I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015
"We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon
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SuperRaptor wrote: View PostBargnani has to be considered a step up on the 26 min. Aaron Gray and Quincy Acy gave us last night. Doesn't he? lol
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Matt52 wrote: View Post+1
However, because Bargnani no longer fits in Toronto, does not mean he does not fit somewhere else in the league. Everyone in the NBA has talent - there is too much competition for someone without talent to get in. However, except for the best of the best, situation can be just as important as talent. The situation needs to change in Toronto - it is not only in the Raptors best interests to trade Bargnani, it is in Bargnani's best interests as well.
AB needs to be in a situation where he doesn't have to worry about defence. So he needs a team with a good defensive center, a good defensive SF, a team that is mostly good at running back on D and that needs an offensive lift.
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Puffer wrote: View PostMust admit that I would like to see this tried. Not enough that I would want the Raps to turn down any trade offer that could move AB for a reasonable return, but it would be an intriguing experiment. I don't know how well AB would accept the change. Maybe very well.
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