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Calderon or Lowry? - Zach Lowe of Grantland

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  • #16
    A few things...

    1 - I don't blame either Jose or Lowry. I blame Colangelo and Casey, in that order. The players don't make the decisions about how to construct the team or who gets playing time (insert Miami joke here).

    2 - I do believe Jose would make a good team that already had a functioning offense and players/schemes that create high-quality shots worse. If you had more capable facilitators and individual scorers, and you put Jose into that lineup, his passing becomes a luxury rather than a need, and his defense limitations become more relevant to his value.

    Thus, it's not a question of "blame", it's "how would I construct a winning team going forward?". I believe there are more paths to a winning team with Lowry than Jose; the latter has a ceiling of "average" before he becomes a player that should definitely be coming off the bench. The former has already led a team in a tougher conference to an above .500 record, and as Lowe was talking about, has a much larger toolbox to utilize. The fact that the Toronto team around him is a poor fit isn't a reason to give up on Lowry. It's a reason to give up on a number of the other players around him (especially the non-shooting wings).

    Certainly the Raptors don't need both given their other needs.

    Comment


    • #17
      Craiger wrote: View Post
      But those are two totally seperate ideas. The level of talent aside from the PGs has nothing to do with Jose or Lowry.

      Lowry would be a better player or fit better etc if the team had more talent. I get that. And what exactly would Jose be capable of if the team had more talent? If he can make 'mediocre' good enough or make bad into 'mediocre', what happens if there are good players around him? Does he become worse? Does he become even better? Does he stay the same? Does he make those good players superstars?

      I just don't get this argument.

      I completely agree the team's construction is poor - and Jose didn't construct it. And Lowry won't construct it going forward.

      This was a Bargnani led club, not a Jose led club. Just like Lowry shouldn't be blamed for the teams poor start, foolish team building by Colangelo and ridiculous assumption Bargnani was a superstar and not a dud. Jose shouldn't be blamed for Colangelo historically doing the same.
      I think he is just saying that our team is not talented enough to be successful with Calderon leading it. Some teams have enough talent in some positions to compensate for a lack of talent in other places. Miami today is a good example, orlando when they made the finals was a good example...there are countless more

      We do not have enough talent to allow Calderon to run the team and be successful against good defensive teams, because he differs to other players naturally. That's his style.

      Lowry on the other hand is a more talented offensive player, and he believes (rightly so) that he should try to beat his man off the dribble and make something happen, rather than passing to Amir Johnson or Aaron Gray for an isolation in the post.

      not sure what the construction of the team has to do with anything...

      Comment


      • #18
        slaw wrote: View Post
        It's a good read. And maddening at the same time.

        For me, it just further solidifies my belief that this organization, from the owner, to the GM, on down to the head coach, has no plan and no idea what it is doing. Why bring in a guy like Lowry to add the dynamic perimeter presence you are missing, only to have the coaching staff try and turn him into Calderon? The guy you already have. Why not just stick with Calderon and save the pick? Then, you bring in a guy like Lowry, who needs to be surrounded by shooters, and you line up Fields, Derozan and Bargnani beside him? Come on.

        Whatever. At this point, they just need to resolve this one way or another. I am so sick of PG controversies dogging such an awful team. It's ridiculous that the coach and GM are at odds over the one position on the team that is actually productive and useful when there are massive holes at the SG and SF spots that have gone unaddressed for 6 years.
        Agree. Although i dont think theyre trying to turn Lowry into Calderon, but rather taking positives from Calderon's game and trying to integrate it into Lowry's game. I dont mean to brag but this is what ive been saying about Calderon since T.J. Ford upto Lowry, you can coach how to pass and when to take shots, but the drive, willingness to attack and close games is innate. Things that Calderon does not have, and cannot be taught.

        This is all on management. First, they shouldnt have rushed Lowry back. IMO, they did. Clearly Lowry wasnt 100% and wasnt in full attack mode when he came back against the hornets. Second, Lowry was the clear cut starter when the season started, why would you force him to come off the bench after an injury? It wasnt his fault he got injured. Given Jose was playing great (actually, not really since they were against sub par teams), roles have to be clearly defined. You wont see CP3 coming of the bench if he got injured and EB was playing great. You wont see Curry coming off the bench even if Jack was averaging 15/5/10. I know Casey is trying to preach the "earn your minutes" mantra but you cant define roles then blur them just because of a gliche.

        Slaw is right. Clearly there is no plan. Casey is picking players he feels earned to play minutes. And you cant do that. Roles have to be clearly defined otherwise, things happen that he is vocal about avoiding - controversies.

        Comment


        • #19
          BallaBalla wrote: View Post
          I think he is just saying that our team is not talented enough to be successful with Calderon leading it. Some teams have enough talent in some positions to compensate for a lack of talent in other places. Miami today is a good example, orlando when they made the finals was a good example...there are countless more

          We do not have enough talent to allow Calderon to run the team and be successful against good defensive teams, because he differs to other players naturally. That's his style.

          Lowry on the other hand is a more talented offensive player, and he believes (rightly so) that he should try to beat his man off the dribble and make something happen, rather than passing to Amir Johnson or Aaron Gray for an isolation in the post.

          not sure what the construction of the team has to do with anything...
          I completely agree. But I also don't think its talented enough with Lowry leading it either. Its 6 of one or a half dozen of another. Considering this team doesn't have a franchise player yet, doesn't know what type of player that would be (building a team with a Dwight is much different than with a Lebron and both are different than with a Chris Paul) lacks talent across the board, needs assets and time to accumulate all of that, has both PGs contracts ending well before there is a legitimate chance of any of that happening, and both likely netting different returns and different future contracts (ie. Lowry more valuable but also more expensive). I see no logic in 'going with Lowry' just because he's 'better' player.

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          • #20
            TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
            I know Casey is trying to preach the "earn your minutes" mantra but you cant define roles then blur them just because of a gliche.
            Add to this the fact that Lowry has played fantastic. Looking at point guards playing 25+ mins and he is top ten in PER, APER, WS, EFF, TS% and he doesn't turn the ball over much at all. His AST% is a little low but other than that, he's been one of the better PGs in the entire NBA when he's played.

            I'm not slagging Calderon, he has put up excellent numbers as well and, even with strength of schedule, you can't entirely discount the wins they had with him playing big minutes. Still, as much as I like Jose, this team has gone nowhere with him at the helm. It isn't going anywhere with Lowry in the short-term either but maybe they should try and find out if long term Lowry is the answer.

            Comment


            • #21
              TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
              Agree. Although i dont think theyre trying to turn Lowry into Calderon, but rather taking positives from Calderon's game and trying to integrate it into Lowry's game. I dont mean to brag but this is what ive been saying about Calderon since T.J. Ford upto Lowry, you can coach how to pass and when to take shots, but the drive, willingness to attack and close games is innate. Things that Calderon does not have, and cannot be taught.

              This is all on management. First, they shouldnt have rushed Lowry back. IMO, they did. Clearly Lowry wasnt 100% and wasnt in full attack mode when he came back against the hornets. Second, Lowry was the clear cut starter when the season started, why would you force him to come off the bench after an injury? It wasnt his fault he got injured. Given Jose was playing great (actually, not really since they were against sub par teams), roles have to be clearly defined. You wont see CP3 coming of the bench if he got injured and EB was playing great. You wont see Curry coming off the bench even if Jack was averaging 15/5/10. I know Casey is trying to preach the "earn your minutes" mantra but you cant define roles then blur them just because of a gliche.

              Slaw is right. Clearly there is no plan. Casey is picking players he feels earned to play minutes. And you cant do that. Roles have to be clearly defined otherwise, things happen that he is vocal about avoiding - controversies.
              And that worked out so well with Bargnani right? Defined role was a good thing for the team and resulted in less controversies?

              Not holding players accountable, not rewarding players or allowing them to earn new or bigger roles, defining what a player is on that team and maintaining it as the status quo is a TERRIBLE idea. If it causes an internal controversy because a player has an issue with it, you know exactly which players to dump.


              We've witnessed the consequences of defining roles wihout reward/accountablity for years. No more please.

              Comment


              • #22
                ^2nd the above.

                Comment


                • #23
                  So you are holding Lowry accountable for what? Casey running a terrible offense and leaving Bargnani in the starting lineup when he wasn't trying? Getting injured and trying to come back because the team needed him and playing when not 100% healthy?

                  I'm not sure what you hold him "accountable" for in this case.

                  He's the better player by virtually every metric other than assist percentage. The team had a better record with him out because they played weaker opposition and swapped Bargnani out of the lineup. Lowry has looked fantastic in the past few games and Jose has looked slow (and both are battling injuries now, so this is closer to a fair comparison).

                  For instance, if the Clippers insisted on playing a super-stiff in their starting lineup, and opened the season by losing several in a row to the Spurs, Grizzlies, Warriors, and Thunder, then CP3 got injured, Bledsoe came in, they simultaneously benched the stiffs, and then ran over the Bobcats, Raptors, Kings, and no-center Lakers, would you bench Chris Paul? That would be insanity.

                  Again, this is not to say Lowry is the long term answer, especially with the current supporting cast. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't; Jose is not. That's obvious. No advanced statistics support Calderon, no team winning percentage over a full season against non-cupcake opponents, and no playoff success over multiple years for Jose. It's pretty obvious that Jose is either a low end starter or a high end bench player in the NBA (and the latter is what he could be on a contender or strong playoff team). Everything points that way.

                  On the other hand, as previously stated, most advanced statistics love Lowry, his teams have been consistently strong despite sub-par talent (seriously, could Calderon have taken the Houston team Lowry was on to 4 games over .500 in a much tougher western conference?). None of this means Lowry is a savior. But he's cheaper than Jose for the next two years, will be far more valuable as an expiring contract next year, and might be good.

                  I literally don't understand the arguments for keeping Calderon. Why should the Raptors pay more for mediocrity with no upside and bury their best player (again, that's not a great feat on the Raptors right now, but it's still something) to do it? I mean, what is the argument for keeping Calderon if your goal is to contend for a championship, or at a bare minimum, a top-4 seed in the long run? Keeping JC is exactly the same mentality that lead them to overpay DeRozan and kept Bargnani in the starting lineup.
                  Last edited by Reinholt; Thu Jan 17, 2013, 01:34 PM.

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                  • #24
                    slaw wrote: View Post
                    Add to this the fact that Lowry has played fantastic. Looking at point guards playing 25+ mins and he is top ten in PER, APER, WS, EFF, TS% and he doesn't turn the ball over much at all. His AST% is a little low but other than that, he's been one of the better PGs in the entire NBA when he's played.

                    I'm not slagging Calderon, he has put up excellent numbers as well and, even with strength of schedule, you can't entirely discount the wins they had with him playing big minutes. Still, as much as I like Jose, this team has gone nowhere with him at the helm. It isn't going anywhere with Lowry in the short-term either but maybe they should try and find out if long term Lowry is the answer.
                    +1

                    actually, scratch that, +2

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Reinholt wrote: View Post
                      So you are holding Lowry accountable for what? Casey running a terrible offense and leaving Bargnani in the starting lineup when he wasn't trying? Getting injured and trying to come back because the team needed him and playing when not 100% healthy?

                      I'm not sure what you hold him "accountable" for in this case.

                      He's the better player by virtually every metric other than assist percentage. The team had a better record with him out because they played weaker opposition and swapped Bargnani out of the lineup. Lowry has looked fantastic in the past few games and Jose has looked slow (and both are battling injuries now, so this is closer to a fair comparison).

                      For instance, if the Clippers insisted on playing a super-stiff in their starting lineup, and opened the season by losing several in a row to the Spurs, Grizzlies, Warriors, and Thunder, then CP3 got injured, Bledsoe came in, they simultaneously benched the stiffs, and then ran over the Bobcats, Raptors, Kings, and no-center Lakers, would you bench Chris Paul? That would be insanity.

                      Again, this is not to say Lowry is the long term answer, especially with the current supporting cast. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't; Jose is not. That's obvious. No advanced statistics support Calderon, no team winning percentage over a full season against non-cupcake opponents, and no playoff success over multiple years for Jose. It's pretty obvious that Jose is either a low end starter or a high end bench player in the NBA (and the latter is what he could be on a contender or strong playoff team). Everything points that way.

                      On the other hand, as previously stated, most advanced statistics love Lowry, his teams have been consistently strong despite sub-par talent (seriously, could Calderon have taken the Houston team Lowry was on to 4 games over .500 in a much tougher western conference?). None of this means Lowry is a savior. But he's cheaper than Jose for the next two years, will be far more valuable as an expiring contract next year, and might be good.

                      I literally don't understand the arguments for keeping Calderon. Why should the Raptors pay more for mediocrity with no upside and bury their best player (again, that's not a great feat on the Raptors right now, but it's still something) to do it? I mean, what is the argument for keeping Calderon if your goal is to contend for a championship, or at a bare minimum, a top-4 seed in the long run? Keeping JC is exactly the same mentality that lead them to overpay DeRozan and kept Bargnani in the starting lineup.
                      Well said.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Reinholt wrote: View Post
                        So you are holding Lowry accountable for what? Casey running a terrible offense and leaving Bargnani in the starting lineup when he wasn't trying? Getting injured and trying to come back because the team needed him and playing when not 100% healthy?

                        I'm not sure what you hold him "accountable" for in this case.

                        He's the better player by virtually every metric other than assist percentage. The team had a better record with him out because they played weaker opposition and swapped Bargnani out of the lineup. Lowry has looked fantastic in the past few games and Jose has looked slow (and both are battling injuries now, so this is closer to a fair comparison).

                        For instance, if the Clippers insisted on playing a super-stiff in their starting lineup, and opened the season by losing several in a row to the Spurs, Grizzlies, Warriors, and Thunder, then CP3 got injured, Bledsoe came in, they simultaneously benched the stiffs, and then ran over the Bobcats, Raptors, Kings, and no-center Lakers, would you bench Chris Paul? That would be insanity.

                        Again, this is not to say Lowry is the long term answer, especially with the current supporting cast. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't; Jose is not. That's obvious. No advanced statistics support Calderon, no team winning percentage over a full season against non-cupcake opponents, and no playoff success over multiple years for Jose. It's pretty obvious that Jose is either a low end starter or a high end bench player in the NBA (and the latter is what he could be on a contender or strong playoff team). Everything points that way.

                        On the other hand, as previously stated, most advanced statistics love Lowry, his teams have been consistently strong despite sub-par talent (seriously, could Calderon have taken the Houston team Lowry was on to 4 games over .500 in a much tougher western conference?). None of this means Lowry is a savior. But he's cheaper than Jose for the next two years, will be far more valuable as an expiring contract next year, and might be good.

                        I literally don't understand the arguments for keeping Calderon. Why should the Raptors pay more for mediocrity with no upside and bury their best player (again, that's not a great feat on the Raptors right now, but it's still something) to do it? I mean, what is the argument for keeping Calderon if your goal is to contend for a championship, or at a bare minimum, a top-4 seed in the long run? Keeping JC is exactly the same mentality that lead them to overpay DeRozan and kept Bargnani in the starting lineup.
                        I've stated them many times in this thread. If you don't understand them I imagine its because you highly undervalue Jose and overvalue Lowry compared to myself.

                        To the second bold, its the exact opposite mentality than overpaying Demar and keeping Bargnani. Jose is a good quality player that has proved it through consistency over the years. The advanced metrics you speak of regarding Lowry say that about Jose. He HAS produced. Demar and Bargnani not only have not produced, but have been rewarded for being net negative players whose entire role was based on 'potential' . The world of difference between those two ideas (ie. net productivity vs net liability and consistency/reliability vs potential) is enourmous.

                        And I never said anything about 'holding Lowry accountability'. I was speaking of accountability and REWARD and EARNING a role. Something Jose has done, something Lowry has yet to do.

                        The irony here is simply handing Lowry a role on this team going forward is EXACTLY what this team has done with Bargnani and Demar. Yet people want this repeated. Maybe I'll just never understand fans.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Craiger wrote: View Post
                          I've stated them many times in this thread. If you don't understand them I imagine its because you highly undervalue Jose and overvalue Lowry compared to myself.

                          To the second bold, its the exact opposite mentality than overpaying Demar and keeping Bargnani. Jose is a good quality player that has proved it through consistency over the years. The advanced metrics you speak of regarding Lowry say that about Jose. He HAS produced. Demar and Bargnani not only have not produced, but have been rewarded for being net negative players whose entire role was based on 'potential' . The world of difference between those two ideas (ie. net productivity vs net liability and consistency/reliability vs potential) is enourmous.

                          And I never said anything about 'holding Lowry accountability'. I was speaking of accountability and REWARD and EARNING a role. Something Jose has done, something Lowry has yet to do.

                          The irony here is simply handing Lowry a role on this team going forward is EXACTLY what this team has done with Bargnani and Demar. Yet people want this repeated. Maybe I'll just never understand fans.
                          just to edit this - they haven't been in this thread but in another thread where we discussed this

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Craiger wrote: View Post
                            I've stated them many times in this thread. If you don't understand them I imagine its because you highly undervalue Jose and overvalue Lowry compared to myself.

                            To the second bold, its the exact opposite mentality than overpaying Demar and keeping Bargnani. Jose is a good quality player that has proved it through consistency over the years. The advanced metrics you speak of regarding Lowry say that about Jose. He HAS produced. Demar and Bargnani not only have not produced, but have been rewarded for being net negative players whose entire role was based on 'potential' . The world of difference between those two ideas (ie. net productivity vs net liability and consistency/reliability vs potential) is enourmous.

                            And I never said anything about 'holding Lowry accountability'. I was speaking of accountability and REWARD and EARNING a role. Something Jose has done, something Lowry has yet to do.

                            The irony here is simply handing Lowry a role on this team going forward is EXACTLY what this team has done with Bargnani and Demar. Yet people want this repeated. Maybe I'll just never understand fans.
                            Would say that Kyle hasn't earned the starting nod after the pat couple games? Nobody seems to notice that against good teams Calderon seem to disappear and be a non-factor.
                            @Chr1st1anL

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                              Would say that Kyle hasn't earned the starting nod after the pat couple games? Nobody seems to notice that against good teams Calderon seem to disappear and be a non-factor.
                              Lowry has played well, not only recently but in general. But so has Jose. And a couple games is just that, a couple games.

                              For the month of January he's avearging 12-8 on 50% shooting, with 8 assist 0.5 turnovers , 40% from 3 in 27 minutes. Boring numbers - amazing productivity

                              As for Jose 'disappearing':

                              20 -17 vs utah. 13-10 vs Boston, 10-15 vs Brooklyn, 10-11 vs OKC, 21-8 vs milwaukee or his triple doubles agaisnt Indiana and Houston

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Craiger wrote: View Post
                                And that worked out so well with Bargnani right? Defined role was a good thing for the team and resulted in less controversies?

                                Not holding players accountable, not rewarding players or allowing them to earn new or bigger roles, defining what a player is on that team and maintaining it as the status quo is a TERRIBLE idea. If it causes an internal controversy because a player has an issue with it, you know exactly which players to dump.


                                We've witnessed the consequences of defining roles wihout reward/accountablity for years. No more please.
                                I think i know where you're coming from, youre thinking of the negative aspect of role definition while im thinking of the positive aspect. my pov is lowry being taken out of the starting lineup while he is playing great while youre thinking of Bargnani who stays in the starting lineup even tho he's not being accountable. I guess it is a double edged sword so to speak, but my post was leaning towards the lowry context rather than the bargnani one.

                                The reason why Bargnani is what he is today is because management never fully defined his role on the team. They drafted him knowing he was a pure scoring PF with sub par rebounding and defense and yet they pushed him to be a 5. Then they pushed him to defend and rebound because everybody outside the organization was ridiculing him and them. Then, they surrendered and allowed him to be a PF, and acknowledge that he will never be a good defender or rebounder. I dont think thats means "defining" his role, but thats a whole other discussion so im not going into that again.

                                How do you correlate Lowry's coming back from injury to accountability? Was it his fault he got injured? It wasnt like Lowry was having a sub-par season before he got injured. I can understand if he was playing bad and Calderon stepped up and took the starting spot from him. Thats earning the spot. But up until Lowry plays 36 mins, shoots 20% commits 10 TOs a game then theres no reason for him to be yanked off the starting spot. He was acquired to be a starter and he is playing as a starter.

                                I get your point, but IMO, every team has their own Lebron, Durant, Duncan, etc. Lowry may not be as good as James, but clearly he is the Lebron James of this team. If Lebron goes down and Battier picks up the slack, do you really see Battier starting over James when James is healthy? Same with the Raptors.

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