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Calderon or Lowry? - Zach Lowe of Grantland

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  • #31
    TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    I think i know where you're coming from, youre thinking of the negative aspect of role definition while im thinking of the positive aspect. my pov is lowry being taken out of the starting lineup while he is playing great while youre thinking of Bargnani who stays in the starting lineup even tho he's not being accountable. I guess it is a double edged sword so to speak, but my post was leaning towards the lowry context rather than the bargnani one.

    The reason why Bargnani is what he is today is because management never fully defined his role on the team. They drafted him knowing he was a pure scoring PF with sub par rebounding and defense and yet they pushed him to be a 5. Then they pushed him to defend and rebound because everybody outside the organization was ridiculing him and them. Then, they surrendered and allowed him to be a PF, and acknowledge that he will never be a good defender or rebounder. I dont think thats means "defining" his role, but thats a whole other discussion so im not going into that again.

    How do you correlate Lowry's coming back from injury to accountability? Was it his fault he got injured? It wasnt like Lowry was having a sub-par season before he got injured. I can understand if he was playing bad and Calderon stepped up and took the starting spot from him. Thats earning the spot. But up until Lowry plays 36 mins, shoots 20% commits 10 TOs a game then theres no reason for him to be yanked off the starting spot. He was acquired to be a starter and he is playing as a starter.

    I get your point, but IMO, every team has their own Lebron, Durant, Duncan, etc. Lowry may not be as good as James, but clearly he is the Lebron James of this team. If Lebron goes down and Battier picks up the slack, do you really see Battier starting over James when James is healthy? Same with the Raptors.

    He's got little to be held accountable for. And I never said he did.

    And Chris Bosh was the Lebron James of this team to at one point. So was Bargnani. That led where? What am I missing here? People keep comparing him to superstars or superstar like situations and then say 'but he's not as good', and they are right. He's not as good as them.... so why treat him like he is?

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    • #32
      I feel Jose has earned an all-star appearance this year.

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      • #33
        Craiger wrote: View Post
        He's got little to be held accountable for. And I never said he did.

        And Chris Bosh was the Lebron James of this team to at one point. So was Bargnani. That led where? What am I missing here? People keep comparing him to superstars or superstar like situations and then say 'but he's not as good', and they are right. He's not as good as them.... so why treat him like he is?
        That is a fair assessment, but youre looking at this with tunnel vision.

        They tried numerous times building around Bosh, it almost worked once, then due to injuries, it faltered. They tried building around Bargnani, then re-build with Bargnani and it just didnt work out. So now you have another top-calibre player, youre saying dismiss his capabilities just because they tried building around one before and it didnt work? This may sound cliche and like a broken record to raptor fans but facts are there, they have a legit center, a young athletic, shooter/defender and a highly capable PG. when was the last time the raptors had this much blocks to build on?

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        • #34
          A few points...

          1 - Advanced metrics don't love Jose. His PER, Win Shares, most plus/minus metrics etc. are all inferior to Lowry. Basically, once you start getting into metrics that can account for Jose's defense and his offensive limitations against teams with speed/length, he's not even in the top half of starting PGs in the league.

          2 - I don't think I overvalue Lowry at all when he's getting paid half of what JC is and signed for twice as long. Do you think JC is twice as good as Lowry? If not, keep KL and trade JC. When you consider contracts, age, and defense, there's no reason to go with JC that I can see.

          3 - If you aren't going to go with KL, what is the case for JC? What is the team's upside with him, and what makes him a starting caliber PG for a consistent playoff team, which should be the goal (at a minimum)? And, in that case, should you trade KL?

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          • #35
            TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
            That is a fair assessment, but youre looking at this with tunnel vision.

            They tried numerous times building around Bosh, it almost worked once, then due to injuries, it faltered. They tried building around Bargnani, then re-build with Bargnani and it just didnt work out. So now you have another top-calibre player, youre saying dismiss his capabilities just because they tried building around one before and it didnt work? This may sound cliche and like a broken record to raptor fans but facts are there, they have a legit center, a young athletic, shooter/defender and a highly capable PG. when was the last time the raptors had this much blocks to build on?
            I can point out two reasons why I see this situation much different than yourself (and perhaps others)

            - nothing 'almost' worked with Bosh. They won 47 games one year and got bounced out of the playoffs.

            - I don't see Lowry as 'top calibre'.

            And while I agree that Val/Ross/Lowry is perhaps the best young players this team has had in a long while (although I don't quite define Lowry at 26 and 7 years experience as 'young' by NBA standards but thats not here nor there), thats also a function of how poor of a job this organization has done over the years. Its the result of Colangelo building low standards

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            • #36
              Craiger wrote: View Post
              I can point out two reasons why I see this situation much different than yourself (and perhaps others)

              - nothing 'almost' worked with Bosh. They won 47 games one year and got bounced out of the playoffs.

              - I don't see Lowry as 'top calibre'.

              And while I agree that Val/Ross/Lowry is perhaps the best young players this team has had in a long while (although I don't quite define Lowry at 26 and 7 years experience as 'young' by NBA standards but thats not here nor there), thats also a function of how poor of a job this organization has done over the years. Its the result of Colangelo building low standards
              GAARRRRRRRRR-BOOOOOOOOO!


              lol not really

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              • #37
                Reinholt wrote: View Post
                A few points...

                1 - Advanced metrics don't love Jose. His PER, Win Shares, most plus/minus metrics etc. are all inferior to Lowry. Basically, once you start getting into metrics that can account for Jose's defense and his offensive limitations against teams with speed/length, he's not even in the top half of starting PGs in the league.

                2 - I don't think I overvalue Lowry at all when he's getting paid half of what JC is and signed for twice as long. Do you think JC is twice as good as Lowry? If not, keep KL and trade JC. When you consider contracts, age, and defense, there's no reason to go with JC that I can see.

                3 - If you aren't going to go with KL, what is the case for JC? What is the team's upside with him, and what makes him a starting caliber PG for a consistent playoff team, which should be the goal (at a minimum)? And, in that case, should you trade KL?
                1. I never compared Jose's #s to Lowry's.

                2. Calderons contract is expiring. What he makes today is irrelevant to his next contract, which is the one I'm concerned with. Lowry's contract ends in a season and a half, at which point he is getting a new one to (with no guarantees he stays).

                3. I've made the case for Jose numerous time, and I highly doubt repeating it would have an influence on you. You've already stated that you believe this team can't win with Jose. So what could I possibly say to change that? His numbers and his consistency speak for themselves. And if the team goes with Jose should you trade KL? Yes. Said that already to, also mentioned how since this team needs to rebuild and Lowry could easily be the best trade peice they have it may make the most sense to trade him peroid. And there is a fair case for trading both.
                Last edited by Craiger; Thu Jan 17, 2013, 04:30 PM.

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                • #38
                  anyone favor trading Calderon for Collison?

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                  • #39
                    Nick or Darren?

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                    • #40
                      Craiger wrote: View Post
                      1. I never compared Jose's #s to Lowry's.

                      2. Calderons contract is expiring. What he makes today is irrelevant to his next contract, which is the one I'm concerned with. Lowry's contract ends in a season and a half, at which point he is getting a new one to (with no guarantees he stays).

                      3. I've made the case for Jose numerous time, and I highly doubt repeating it would have an influence on you. You've already stated that you believe this team can't win with Jose. So what could I possibly say to change that? His numbers and his consistency speak for themselves. And if the team goes with Jose should you trade KL? Yes. Said that already to, also mentioned how since this team needs to rebuild and Lowry could easily be the best trade peice they have it may make the most sense to trade him peroid. And there is a fair case for trading both.
                      There is no guarantee that Jose will stay either. There is no reason for us to trade are best player in his prime.
                      @Chr1st1anL

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                      • #41
                        octothorp wrote: View Post
                        Nick or Darren?
                        Darren, I like his game and would give an overall flow to the game, with 2 attacking pgs. Hes solid, good playmaker can score and is only 25.

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                        • #42
                          Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                          There is no guarantee that Jose will stay either. There is no reason for us to trade are best player in his prime.
                          Especially when Lowry has another year at a bargain price.

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                          • #43
                            Craiger wrote: View Post
                            I can point out two reasons why I see this situation much different than yourself (and perhaps others)

                            - nothing 'almost' worked with Bosh. They won 47 games one year and got bounced out of the playoffs.

                            - I don't see Lowry as 'top calibre'.

                            And while I agree that Val/Ross/Lowry is perhaps the best young players this team has had in a long while (although I don't quite define Lowry at 26 and 7 years experience as 'young' by NBA standards but thats not here nor there), thats also a function of how poor of a job this organization has done over the years. Its the result of Colangelo building low standards
                            Back to back playoff appearances and a game-away playoff appearance. Not pretty, but counts as almost, i would think. The problem was they tried to build around Bosh instead of building with him, and clearly Bosh was no franchise player. I think what theyre doing now is avoiding that mistake by trying to fill holes in the roster rather than building around one player.

                            fair enough. do you see Jose as top-calibre?

                            I dont get your last point. Isnt it a good thing that we now have a good, young core moving forward with, even if its a product of past mistakes?

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                            • #44
                              Craiger wrote: View Post
                              1. I never compared Jose's #s to Lowry's.

                              2. Calderons contract is expiring. What he makes today is irrelevant to his next contract, which is the one I'm concerned with. Lowry's contract ends in a season and a half, at which point he is getting a new one to (with no guarantees he stays).

                              3. I've made the case for Jose numerous time, and I highly doubt repeating it would have an influence on you. You've already stated that you believe this team can't win with Jose. So what could I possibly say to change that? His numbers and his consistency speak for themselves. And if the team goes with Jose should you trade KL? Yes. Said that already to, also mentioned how since this team needs to rebuild and Lowry could easily be the best trade peice they have it may make the most sense to trade him peroid. And there is a fair case for trading both.
                              1. How do you know which player is better?

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                              • #45
                                Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                                There is no guarantee that Jose will stay either. There is no reason for us to trade are best player in his prime.
                                I never said he would. In fact I've said before the first order of business is to see what Jose would even be interested in taking, let alone taking a contract at all with Toronto. If its not a reasonably priced contract or a big ole negative from him any debate regarding him is moot - he's off to the highest bidder or seen as cap space this summer.

                                Its the one advantage this team has right now is they can figure out what Jose thinks he's worth and then use that as a starting point.

                                Glove -
                                fair enough. do you see Jose as top-calibre?
                                No.

                                1. How do you know which player is better?
                                ? Reinholt claimed resigning/starting Jose would be the same mentality as what Colangelo did with Bargnani and Demar. With which I responded with :

                                its the exact opposite mentality than overpaying Demar and keeping Bargnani. Jose is a good quality player that has proved it through consistency over the years. The advanced metrics you speak of regarding Lowry say that about Jose. He HAS produced. Demar and Bargnani not only have not produced, but have been rewarded for being net negative players whose entire role was based on 'potential' . The world of difference between those two ideas (ie. net productivity vs net liability and consistency/reliability vs potential) is enourmous.
                                he took that as I was comparing Lowry and Calderon. But thats not what I was getting at. (I was saying Calderon's numbers show Calderon is productive, efficient and consistent - something they never have with Demar or Bargnani. Demar/Bargnani situations were based on potential, Jose's would be based on results)

                                If you are asking who do I think is a better player, I think its Lowry. But the marginal difference between Lowry and Jose isn't that big. And with both their contracts ending in the near future, both to be on new ones (Jose's likely to be much much lower than Lowry's), and the need to rebuild (and therefore both should be seen as assets to that end) keeping Lowry just because he's a 'better player' is fools gold.

                                None of this means I'm against trading Jose or keeping Lowry.

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