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It's not Fair to LOWRY!

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  • #16
    Reinholt wrote: View Post
    In fairness, Jose was also getting abused by Holiday, because Holiday is actually pretty good.

    PG is not why the Raptors lost this game; in the first half, Holiday was also playing well, but the Raptors had a big lead. Look at the passive play of the wings and the standing around / settling for long jumpers in the second half. A lot of the turnovers forced in the 2nd had more to do with the 76ers defense and the stagnant offense than just the PG for the Raps. That goes for both Jose and Lowry; you can't make a good pass against pressure when nobody is moving to provide you a target, for example.
    I agree with a lot of what you're saying, although I do think Lowry was pretty bad in the second half. His shot was off the entire night but he still forced up some bad looks (partially due to the stagnancy of the wings), he was turning the ball over and gambling on D that led to direct layups at the other end and most of his assists came on perimeter swings where Ross or AA knocked down a shot.

    And even if I agreed with you 100%... It still doesn't explain this thread?
    Last edited by Fully; Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:33 PM.

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    • #17
      I think the differing perceptions about Calderon and Lowry have to do with how the issues at the wing and with the lack of offensive creativity flow through to the rest of the offense. When other guys are standing around, settling for long jumpers, or are unable to break down a defense, there are two options as a PG:

      - Continue doing what you are supposed to do and try to grind through it (Calderon)
      - Break off the offense and try to make things happen yourself (Lowry)

      The result of the former will be less volatility, and against bad teams you might grind them away, but against good teams, that's a recipe for a non-embarrassing but near-certain loss. The result of the latter will be a lot more volatility, where you can lose to anyone and beat anyone.

      Neither is a recipe for winning, but the problem is not at the PG position; it's the fact that the PGs are being put in that situation to begin with.

      Edit:

      To take this to its logical extreme: if Lowry was surrounded by Nowitzki, Pau Gasol, Ray Allen, and Shane Battier, to pick four quality players who can all shoot and play offense, the hero ball thing would be an egregious monstrosity and he should be benched immediately.

      However if Jose was surrounded by four guys who were all sub 35% shooters, he should take every single shot, and if he kept passing and deferring, he would be viewed as a fool and should be benched immediately.

      The current situation is somewhere in the ugly middle, where you have just barely passable offensive players at many positions, meaning there's really no great answer, and both options are various degrees of bad. But my core argument here is that the PGs are the symptom, not the disease, and both the hero ball from Lowry and the need for Calderon's passing are a result of greater issues elsewhere. Blaming the PGs is blaming the best players for the flaws of the worst.
      Last edited by Reinholt; Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:34 PM.

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      • #18
        The Coach wrote: View Post
        In the second half, the Raps went up by 19 with Jose on the court... they started playing poorly and Jose got pulled for Lowry with 7:30 left in the 3rd and they were STILL UP BY 9. So, the momentum was shifting but Lowry was not called on to do any hero ball.
        I feel bad for Jose, not Lowry. Imagine playing the way your are, all-star level, and getting subbed out with 7:30 left in the 3rd and not being brought back until 10 seconds left. I don't think Lowry is the issue; however, if not anything else he is bad luck. When he plays a major part of the 4th, our record has to be atrocious (not saying it isn't overall as well).
        Ffs, I think we've had a pretty good sample of what Calderon can and cannot do. He is not an allstar by any stretch of the imagination. (otherwise allstar has no meaning) He's had his chance. Give Lowry his!

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        • #19
          knickz wrote: View Post
          who blew the lead, jose or the raptors?
          Jose blew the inbound with a 2 pt lead and the ball, seconds left.

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          • #20
            Fully wrote: View Post
            I agree with a lot of what you're saying, although I do think Lowry was pretty bad in the second half. His shot was off the entire night but he still forced up some bad looks (partially due to the stagnancy of the wings), he was turning the ball over and gambling on D that led to direct layups at the other end and most of his assists came on perimeter swings where Ross or AA knocked down a shot.

            And even if I agreed with you 100%... It still doesn't explain this thread?
            The reason the wings are stagnant when Lowry is on the floor is because they don't bother to makes cuts because they don't think Lowry will see them. Amir and now Ed understand perfectly that if they make cuts or roll to the basket Jose will get them the ball. That is the way basketball should be played. This does not happen for them when Lowry is at the point. Why make the cut if your PG is not going to deliver the ball?

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            • #21
              Raptorboy wrote: View Post
              The reason the wings are stagnant when Lowry is on the floor is because they don't bother to makes cuts because they don't think Lowry will see them. Amir and now Ed understand perfectly that if they make cuts or roll to the basket Jose will get them the ball. That is the way basketball should be played. This does not happen for them when Lowry is at the point. Why make the cut if your PG is not going to deliver the ball?
              Because even if you don't get the ball you'll get somebody else an easier shot. That's why.

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              • #22
                Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                Because even if you don't get the ball you'll get somebody else an easier shot. That's why.
                Thank you

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                • #23
                  After reading everyones responses and taking them all into careful consideration... I've come to the conclusion that you are all right and no matter how bad we suck, we will still all be die hard raptor fans no matter what. Only person I seem to be able to point my finger at is Dwayne Casey. Tired of hearing him blame players for the losses. COACH the *#;/':"--- team to win! there's damn well enough talent to win with this squad!

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                  • #24
                    minus bargani of course...

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                    • #25
                      Reinholt wrote: View Post
                      I think the differing perceptions about Calderon and Lowry have to do with how the issues at the wing and with the lack of offensive creativity flow through to the rest of the offense. When other guys are standing around, settling for long jumpers, or are unable to break down a defense, there are two options as a PG:

                      - Continue doing what you are supposed to do and try to grind through it (Calderon)
                      - Break off the offense and try to make things happen yourself (Lowry)

                      The result of the former will be less volatility, and against bad teams you might grind them away, but against good teams, that's a recipe for a non-embarrassing but near-certain loss. The result of the latter will be a lot more volatility, where you can lose to anyone and beat anyone.

                      Neither is a recipe for winning, but the problem is not at the PG position; it's the fact that the PGs are being put in that situation to begin with.

                      Edit:

                      To take this to its logical extreme: if Lowry was surrounded by Nowitzki, Pau Gasol, Ray Allen, and Shane Battier, to pick four quality players who can all shoot and play offense, the hero ball thing would be an egregious monstrosity and he should be benched immediately.

                      However if Jose was surrounded by four guys who were all sub 35% shooters, he should take every single shot, and if he kept passing and deferring, he would be viewed as a fool and should be benched immediately.

                      The current situation is somewhere in the ugly middle, where you have just barely passable offensive players at many positions, meaning there's really no great answer, and both options are various degrees of bad. But my core argument here is that the PGs are the symptom, not the disease, and both the hero ball from Lowry and the need for Calderon's passing are a result of greater issues elsewhere. Blaming the PGs is blaming the best players for the flaws of the worst.
                      Fantastic way to explain that. +1.
                      Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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                      • #26
                        Lowry plays 36 minutes to Jose's 20 and it's Jose's fault that Lowry repeatedly played like a bonehead when it counted? *shaking head*

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                        • #27
                          p00ka wrote: View Post
                          Lowry plays 36 minutes to Jose's 20 and it's Jose's fault that Lowry repeatedly played like a bonehead when it counted? *shaking head*
                          Lowry deserved the minutes he out played Jose. He was at least able to slow down Sixers run.
                          @Chr1st1anL

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                          • #28
                            Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                            Lowry deserved the minutes he out played Jose. He was at least able to slow down Sixers run.
                            Jose was -4 on the night and Lowry was -5... Jose played against the starters almost the entire time he was out there and Lowry played against them only late.

                            Tim Chisholm writes:
                            Lowry’s refusal to play defense within the team concept also really hurt this team in the second half. A really disappointing effort.
                            and...
                            Lowry has been no better at corralling Jrue than Calderon, also, somewhat negating his perceived biggest distinction over Jose.
                            Look, I was hoping that Lowry would come here and hit big shots and take the keys and run with it. I am still hoping he does (and so does Casey, or there is no way he is playing as much as he did down the stretch last night), but please don't say that Lowry has outplayed Calderon... he flat out has not! Again, I want that to happen and I hope Calderon can be traded, but Jose has been the best player on this team over the last month or so. Lowry's game management down the stretch of games has been so bad that I want Calderon out there right now... and I have said before that Calderon is one of the worst clutch players.
                            “Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are.”
                            ― John Wooden

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                            • #29
                              Seems to me Lowry was brought in early to slow down Holiday. He did that fairly well at first but then seemed to get dispirited after a few calls he didn't like and then wasn't being effective on either end. I can't remember ever seeing Calderon just give up.

                              I want to know why Ross, who was 4for4 from 3, didn't touch the ball until the second to last play of the third.

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