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Rudy Gay "Pseudo Superstar"

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  • #16
    RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
    That is the problem. We are paying him to be that guy when he's not. Our cap situation is completely fucked with his contract.
    Let's have some perspective here. Amare's contract is very bloated for a starter, let alone a bench player. Is ESPN complaining about their star franchise (The Knicks) in the largest market in the States? No. The last time I checked, this is still a team sport. Yes, there's Lebron (which is the star of the Heat) but is surrounded by star players. Of course there's Durant (also surrounded by very good players). Gay deserves to be surrounded by good players too. I'm not comparing Gay to those two (even though it looks like it). It's team ball. We've seen what Gay's presence has done with Demar's evolution. Right now I see two problems with this team: ball movement and the 2nd unit. Gay's contract is massive. He's paid like a number 1 and with the Raps, he is number 1. Lebron and Bosh have identical salaries yet no one talks about Bosh as 1B in Miami. The metric of salaries is eschewed. Quite frankly, I'd rather have Rudy as a starter than Amare' at my bench.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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    • #17
      Not sure I remember anyone ever saying Rudy was a superstar. I believe he has been underrated throughout he career but not close to superstar status. I agree with BBallCrush in that many never though Bosh was a superstar, I never thought that either. And Carter or McGrady only won one series. Without Oak, Willis, Curry, Davis, Bogues, et al. they wouldn't have ever been as successful as they were. The team that surrounds DeRozan, Gay, and Val next year will determine their overall success. It's not Casey's fault completely that the team isn't winning these games. It's the talent level. Gay will look like a superstar when we have some solid vets with some leadership and so will DeRozan.

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      • #18
        urbanmonk15 wrote: View Post
        Rudy gay comparisons to Vince are much closer than we in Toronto would like to admit. Remember the opportunity to trade Vince for Kobe straight up? No one would make the deal at the time because Vince was "better". Same reason why I believe Demar will be better than Rudy. WORK ETHIC. Demar is a gym rat as Kobe. Vince and Rudy are other world talents with physical gifts that they relied on too early in their careers and never really had to work hard because things came so naturally/easily for them. Demar and Kobe work on their games more. Rudy's laziness to go to the basket and settle for those off balance contested jumpers is lazy. He is Vince 2.0. Do not hate on Demar or give up on him. I don't think he will ever be Kobe. BUt he works. and he improves and will be even better than he is now. He takes criticism and gets better. Remember this
        Well put my friend! Demar has crazy work ethic and improves EVERY YEAR. No doubt he'll come back next year even better.

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        • #19
          Pong wrote: View Post
          Lol that diagram is awesome. Gay is no superstar like KD or LBJ so we can't expect him to turn the franchise around the moment he arrives. But he's got the tools to be real close to one. I think it's way too early to make any judgement calls since he's only been here for 12 games.

          You guys gotta remember that on memphis, they dump the ball to the bigs and plays run through them. Gay's responsibility was primarily a scorer/slasher. When he gets the ball, he's going to shoot or he attacks the rim. Now on raps, not only is he the go to primary option, we're also expecting him to facilitate others. We all know Casey isn't the best at offense so it's going to take time for Gay to figure this out.

          But one thing i know for sure is he's going to play a big part of our franchise moving forward. Not because of his contract, but his talent is by far the best we've had in a while.
          +1

          I think Rudy Gay is the closest thing to a Super Star the Raptors will be able to attract minus the Draft Lottery. Opposing teams realize he is our only legitimate threat and so they double and triple team him. He is still not comfortable with how the Raptors play, and is probably not used to our pylon offense. Dwayne Casey needs to start drawing up some offensive plays, other than Isolation for Rudy. That being said, I have nothing but optimism for the Raptors moving forward with the talent pool we currently have. If we can get rid of Bargnani for a real power forward, we are set.

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          • #20
            JalenRose5 wrote: View Post
            +1

            I think Rudy Gay is the closest thing to a Super Star the Raptors will be able to attract minus the Draft Lottery. Opposing teams realize he is our only legitimate threat and so they double and triple team him. He is still not comfortable with how the Raptors play, and is probably not used to our pylon offense. Dwayne Casey needs to start drawing up some offensive plays, other than Isolation for Rudy. That being said, I have nothing but optimism for the Raptors moving forward with the talent pool we currently have. If we can get rid of Bargnani for a real power forward, we are set.
            That's if we can get rid of Bargnani....he looks way to comfortable in Toronto. I agree when it comes to DeMar, if he continues to be consistent on and off court concerning his approach and skills to the game he will be more deserving of the superstar status in Toronto. I hope future wise he'll remain in Toronto cause it's a guarantee that if he decides to jump ship to another team he will be an absolute beast on the offensive end.

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            • #21
              Rudy Gay isn't a franchise changer, but he's an all-star calibre potential talent, who is a piece that significantly helps a franchise, not entirely change it though.
              Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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              • #22
                I love how we choose to remember the VC Tmac days....Don't people remember THE REST OF THAT TEAM???

                Vince and TMAC played with guys like dell curry, chris childs, doug christie, antonio davis, Kevin Willis, Alvin williams and Charles Oakley.

                We were really a tough bruising team that could defend, and was well rounded, we just needed some more playoff experience together.

                These were more than formidable role players. We had leadership, a post presence on offense in AD, toughness, and most importantly, coach that played the best guys . For god sake, how good were the Raptors when VC was playing with a young Chris Bosh and the guys we had on that team? Did you guys ever LOOK at those rosters (2002-2005)??

                VC was never a savior. Just an amazing Dunker. We won ONE playoff series.

                My point is, there is no reason why this version of the Raptors cannot be just as successful (i.e. ONE playoff series win).
                But Gay and Derozan will not determine this, just as VC and TMAC never did either. They were parts of a whole.

                If we can trot out a starting lineup with a developed Jonas and a consistent Kyle Lowry, while taking the mish-mash of guys we have on the bench and turning them into a solid 4 man bench rotation, we might even be better than that team.

                The whole idea of a `franchise` savior is ridiculous.

                Maybe once a decade or so, a single player can turn a franchise into a winning team by JUST being on the team and making the other guys better. Even Kobe is not one of those guys. Lebron, Michael Jordan, Maybe KD, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan...these are the types of people you need to talk about and they are all in the top 20 who ever played.

                Let`s talk about reality. We were headed no where and turned around a guy mediocre guy like Jose into a great player in Gay. Derozan is more effective BECAUSE Gay is on the team.

                because of that trade and having Gay, there is a conceivable way where we can make the 4th or 5th seed next year and be a relevant team again.

                Anyone who thinks that Gay is not elevating this team to another level is crazy. Anyone who remembers Carter and McGrady as being franchise saviors, or putting the team on their back any more than Gay has already done is crazier.

                One playoff series win with Gay on the team and he has matched Carter. Doesn`t matter how nice some of those dunks were
                Last edited by BallaBalla; Fri Mar 1, 2013, 03:00 PM.

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                • #23
                  BallaBalla wrote: View Post
                  I love how we choose to remember the VC Tmac days....Don't people remember THE REST OF THAT TEAM???

                  Vince and TMAC played with guys like dell curry, chris childs, doug christie, antonio davis, Kevin Willis, Alvin williams and Charles Oakley.

                  We were really a tough bruising team that could defend, and was well rounded, we just needed some more playoff experience together.

                  These were more than formidable role players. We had leadership, a post presence on offense in AD, toughness, and most importantly, coach that played the best guys . For god sake, how good were the Raptors when VC was playing with a young Chris Bosh and the guys we had on that team? Did you guys ever LOOK at those rosters (2002-2005)??

                  VC was never a savior. Just an amazing Dunker. We won ONE playoff series.

                  My point is, there is no reason why this version of the Raptors cannot be just as successful (i.e. ONE playoff series win).
                  But Gay and Derozan will not determine this, just as VC and TMAC never did either. They were parts of a whole.

                  If we can trot out a starting lineup with a developed Jonas and a consistent Kyle Lowry, while taking the mish-mash of guys we have on the bench and turning them into a solid 4 man bench rotation, we might even be better than that team.

                  The whole idea of a `franchise` savior is ridiculous.

                  Maybe once a decade or so, a single player can turn a franchise into a winning team by JUST being on the team and making the other guys better. Even Kobe is not one of those guys. Lebron, Michael Jordan, Maybe KD, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan...these are the types of people you need to talk about and they are all in the top 20 who ever played.

                  Let`s talk about reality. We were headed no where and turned around a guy mediocre guy like Jose into a great player in Gay. Derozan is more effective BECAUSE Gay is on the team.

                  because of that trade and having Gay, there is a conceivable way where we can make the 4th or 5th seed next year and be a relevant team again.

                  Anyone who thinks that Gay is not elevating this team to another level is crazy. Anyone who remembers Carter and McGrady as being franchise saviors, or putting the team on their back any more than Gay has already done is crazier.

                  One playoff series win with Gay on the team and he has matched Carter. Doesn`t matter how nice some of those dunks were
                  Couldn't agree anymore! Thier are few players that change a team by just being on it but those aren't the only teams that win every year. I love the way this franchise is going.
                  @Chr1st1anL

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                  • #24
                    FWIW, Vince (in his prime) was a top-5 player in this league. A legit franchise-altering superstar. Yes, the role players were very important, but those teams do nothing without Vince being Vince.

                    That level of talent doesn't currently exist on today's rendition of the Raptors.

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                    • #25
                      Future looks bright. Rudy is the guy, still has potential to be MUCH better. Lowry, Derozan, Ross, Valanciunas, Amir moving forward looks great. Team will continue to build around with the experience, role players needed.
                      Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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                      • #26
                        Nilanka wrote: View Post
                        FWIW, Vince (in his prime) was a top-5 player in this league. A legit franchise-altering superstar. Yes, the role players were very important, but those teams do nothing without Vince being Vince.

                        That level of talent doesn't currently exist on today's rendition of the Raptors.

                        i think we`re splitting hairs here. No one can argue that Gay is better today than Vince was then. No one can argue that if you put Gay on that team that it would have done better.

                        BUT the idea that Vince was franchise altering only had to do with the way he brought attention to Toronto, not necessarily the changes he made to the win loss column, and ultimately our playoff success.

                        At the end of the day, we only hold VC in high regard because he was the best player this team ever had. You take him out of our bubble and put him in the grand scope of the NBA, I would be shocked to see him make the Hall of Fame, and if he does, it will be his dunks which put him over the top, not his success
                        At the end of the day all that matters are wins and losses. If Gay ends up being more successful with the Raptors in terms of wins and losses, it would be difficult to argue that he did not change the franchise the same way or more than Vince did, despite the fact that he had less talent.

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                        • #27
                          BallaBalla wrote: View Post
                          i think we`re splitting hairs here. No one can argue that Gay is better today than Vince was then. No one can argue that if you put Gay on that team that it would have done better.

                          BUT the idea that Vince was franchise altering only had to do with the way he brought attention to Toronto, not necessarily the changes he made to the win loss column, and ultimately our playoff success.

                          At the end of the day, we only hold VC in high regard because he was the best player this team ever had. You take him out of our bubble and put him in the grand scope of the NBA, I would be shocked to see him make the Hall of Fame, and if he does, it will be his dunks which put him over the top, not his success
                          At the end of the day all that matters are wins and losses. If Gay ends up being more successful with the Raptors in terms of wins and losses, it would be difficult to argue that he did not change the franchise the same way or more than Vince did, despite the fact that he had less talent.
                          I was only referring to Vince "in his prime", which in my opinion was just the 2 years from 2000-2002. Vince was among Shaq, Iverson and Kobe as one of the very best players in the league for those years. I think you're undervaluing just how good an individual basketball player Vince was....mind you, for a brief period.

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                          • #28
                            Nilanka wrote: View Post
                            I was only referring to Vince "in his prime", which in my opinion was just the 2 years from 2000-2002. Vince was among Shaq, Iverson and Kobe as one of the very best players in the league for those years. I think you're undervaluing just how good an individual basketball player Vince was....mind you, for a brief period.
                            I think you're right...i'll never forget that philly series when him and Iverson were exchanging 50 point games (and i don't know why that isn't talked about more often)

                            But we never really won anything significant. So when people say that he was "franchise altering" it wasn't because we were that successful on the court.

                            Rudy won't be a top 5 player, but the idea that him and derozan can be more effective than VC and Tmac (or whatever other SG he played with) is more than realistic when you put it into this perspective.

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                            • #29
                              Yea, I think some of what happened afterwards is tarnishing what Vince really was in Raptor fans' eyes. This was an elite talent at that time, that unfortunately has been overshadowed and tarnished by what I can only describe as "bad vibes". That and him quitting on us. The thing about Rudy Gay is he's 27 years old which means he is hitting his prime but he hasn't accomplished even close to what Vince (or Kobe, Iverson) had done by their 7th season.

                              You can talk all about how Gay maybe wasn't the centerpiece of Memphis in the way Carter was for the Raptors, but the advanced stats don't lie (cumulative stats over first 7 seasons):
                                                                                                
                              Player MP PER TS% eFG% TRB% AST% STL% ORtg DRtg WS
                              Kobe Bryant 16826 22.2 .548 .481 8.2 22.2 2.2 110 103 62.8
                              Vince Carter 17334 22.1 .531 .484 8.0 21.9 1.9 108 104 56.2
                              Rudy Gay 17807 16.1 .524 .483 9.4 9.6 2.0 103 107 29.8
                              Allen Iverson 20124 21.0 .507 .448 5.6 26.9 3.0 104 103 55.1

                              I think Vince and Rudy have similar personalities.. not sure if that is a good or bad thing. But it does show we need to keep building.
                              Last edited by ebrian; Fri Mar 1, 2013, 04:13 PM.
                              your pal,
                              ebrian

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                              • #30
                                BallaBalla wrote: View Post
                                I think you're right...i'll never forget that philly series when him and Iverson were exchanging 50 point games (and i don't know why that isn't talked about more often)

                                But we never really won anything significant. So when people say that he was "franchise altering" it wasn't because we were that successful on the court.

                                Rudy won't be a top 5 player, but the idea that him and derozan can be more effective than VC and Tmac (or whatever other SG he played with) is more than realistic when you put it into this perspective.
                                I guess it depends on how one defines "franchise altering", but when you look at how the Raptors went from 16 wins in 1997-98 (the year before Carter's arrival) to a franchise-best 47 wins just 3 years later, that's a pretty big deal in my books.

                                We were probably another legit star player away from really being title contenders (since McGrady hadn't established himself yet).

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