"A lot of people get into the analytic stuff — we don’t pay no attention to that..."

[mcHAPPY]

DeRozan's take on analytics:

He takes a hell of a lot of pressure off me and vice versa,’ DeRozan said of Gay. ‘A lot of people get into the analytic stuff — we don’t pay no attention to that because we know how much we can help this team. As long as we play on the defensive end, we don’t have to worry about scoring — nothing, none of that — because we can score the ball at will.’

Rebuttal from Wages of Wins.com

DeRozan is treating basketball like five games of one-on-one. In his view, long as he and Gay score and prevent their defensive assignments from scoring as much, both players are helping.

But basketball in the NBA is not about playing five games of one-on-one; it’s one game of five-on-five. In one game of five-on-five, factors like shooting efficiency, rebounds, and turnovers matter. And since you’re not playing by yourself, your shots are taken from your teammates.

So even if DeRozan and Gay outscore their defensive assignments, they may not be helping their team win if they are:

Shooting poorly (hence wasting shots their teammates could have taken) and/or
Not gaining or keeping possession of the ball

Unfortunately for the Raptors, both DeRozan and Gay are average to below average with respect to shooting efficiency and average to below average when it comes to gaining or keeping possession of the ball (click the links to see more detailed stats at The NBA Geek). So perhaps they should consider spending more time worrying about their scoring (especially the part about scoring efficiently) — especially given that both players are not known for their defense prowess.

[slaw]

These WoW guys can *&$^ off. My guess is that 99% of players don't pay any attention to "analytics" nor do they need to.

Clayton Kershaw doesn't need to be an expert in fWAR to be a good pitcher any more than Lebron James needs to understand TS% or WS48 to be the greatest player of his time..

The people paying attention to trends, stats, etc. should be the coaching staff and management teams. They should then be working with players to put those players in the best position to succeed utilizing as much information as possible from their analysis of their own team and others. If the players can't do the job required, then you get new players.

Arencibia's problem isn't that he doesn't pay attention to OBP, it's that he can't hit and has a terrible approach at the plate he refuses to change. That has nothing to do with stats (or understanding them) and everything to do with a player who doesn't want to or can't get outside his comfort zone to improve.

[Superjudge]

Ok, I am not going to make this long, but I hate stats, always have. The reason is that SO MUCH goes into the decision making process during actual play, that some stats are affected. So A guy see's a shooting percentage fall, take Gay, however how much attention is placed upon how his teammates affected that? It isnt on a sheet. Never will be. Poor timing, shitty screens etc.

And this is just one small example.

Can we look at championship team who have stars with poor efficiency numbers and become bewildered?


This doesnt mean Gay cant improve, Derozan cant improve. It means fuck the stat guys for thinking they have a sport figured out, when they dont truly understand the sport. and NO, THEY FUCKING DON'T.

[Fully]

"But basketball in the NBA is not about playing five games of one-on-one; it’s one game of five-on-five. In one game of five-on-five, factors like shooting efficiency, rebounds, and turnovers matter. "

The rebuttal from the WoW guys is ironic considering the biggest criticism of their metrics, and the basketball analytic crowd as a whole, is that they've failed to capture the impact that certain players have on one another while sharing the court.

It is a game of five on five, which is often why I think their practice of breaking down players as individual pieces and then sticking their fingers in their ears, is misguided. It is not baseball where the game is a series of 1 vs. 1 competitions played over and over again to make up a larger game.

[Apollo]

So DeRozan doesn't care a thing about making his teammate's better? I guess he didn't focus on handle and passing in the off-season... But hey, as long as he sees 20PPG on his player card when he Googles his name, I guess he's happy.

I hate how clear it is that DeRozan is not a gifted shooter but has great athleticism and yet, instead of taking advantage of his physical gifts he'd rather try to force himself into playing a way that doesn't suit him. Ego prevails and the team suffers.

[Joey]

So DeRozan doesn't care a thing about making his teammate's better? I guess he didn't focus on handle and passing in the off-season... But hey, as long as he sees 20PPG on his player card when he Googles his name, I guess he's happy.

I hate how clear it is that DeRozan is not a gifted shooter but has great athleticism and yet, instead of taking advantage of his physical gifts he'd rather try to force himself into playing a way that doesn't suit him. Ego prevails and the team suffers.

I didn't get that from those quotes at all... I simply got the impression that this team doesn't care about the critics, and will fight and claw and do everything they know they can do to win.

[Superjudge]

I didn't get that from those quotes at all... I simply got the impression that this team doesn't care about the critics, and will fight and claw and do everything they know they can do to win.

And this is exactly what he mean't. Youre right.

[octothorp]

Ok, I am not going to make this long, but I hate stats, always have. The reason is that SO MUCH goes into the decision making process during actual play, that some stats are affected. So A guy see's a shooting percentage fall, take Gay, however how much attention is placed upon how his teammates affected that? It isnt on a sheet. Never will be. Poor timing, shitty screens etc.

Stats make a lot more sense for some sports than others, particularly sports that can be most effectively broken down into individual actions. Baseball, absolutely. Football, somewhat. Hockey and basketball, not very much. I'm all for people attempting to work out better statistical measurements for basketball, but any sort of superiority complex on the part of guys like the WoW guys is laughable. Most of the analytics right now are focused on rankings: reducing a player's impact to a single sortable stat, so that they can say 'this guy is better than that guy.' Maybe that's what the stat-reading public wants. And I don't blame DeRozan for ignoring it: it does him absolutely no good to to care about how some metric ranks him.

On the other hand, I do believe there is real potential in the sort of analytics that the SportVU cameras bring, because the amount of information that it's dealing with is exponentially greater than what most analytic systems use, and because the the whole approach (as it's being implemented by Toronto and others) is based less around ranking players, and more about constructing offenses and defenses to account for the strengths and weaknesses of individual players. It's also way beyond the grasp of fans, which is fine. The level of analytics that's appropriate for fans and the level that's appropriate for coaches and GMs isn't going to be the same.

[Mediumcore]

I didn't get that from those quotes at all... I simply got the impression that this team doesn't care about the critics, and will fight and claw and do everything they know they can do to win.

Really? I didn't get that at all from his quote. My impression was of a guy who has supreme confidence in his ability to score the ball, almost to a narcisistic level. He also seemed to only be referring to himself and Gay. We were an average scoring team last season, nothing that I would say describes two guys or a team that were able to "score at will".

I like DeMar, and I wish he was better than he is because he speaks well of this City and seems genuineley committed to turning things around in Toronto. However, and only imo, he comes off sounding like he is much better than he is with this quote. I'd like to see him walk the walk before he talks the talk.

[Raptorsss]

Why the hell would players care about stats? Granted some players try to go for double doubles just for the heck of it. But, its the coaches and managers jobs to figure how to get the team to win and its the players job to listen. The raptor reporters this pre-season have been pissing me off and I actually feel sorry for these millionaires having to answer these terrible questions.

This is a non-issue for the players lets leave it that way.

[Superjudge]

Well, James and Wade from Miami decided to really focus upon reducing turnovers, increasing their shot efficiency and raising up their percentages...but where did that get them??

[Katman]

Some people believe in analytics like religious dogma; to the point of a "fundamentalist" belief system . They can't accept that some people don't put as much stock in it as they do.

[Mr.Z]

Derozan actually said "we know how much we can help this team" and some of you are saying "He doesnt care about making his teammates better"... dude, come on.
It's easy to pick apart phrases and dissect them on the internet and think about how they should have been worded different but these words were actually said in real time and not all the time do we have time to think each word and place them in the perfect order when we are put on the spot and asked a question...

So I actually doubt Derozan was thinking in the back of his mind as he said this that "what I really mean is that I'm going to take all the shots I want, and fuck my teammates". No, who the fuck does that? That's something girlfriends do; say one thing when the mean something completely different.

[Joey]

Really? I didn't get that at all from his quote. My impression was of a guy who has supreme confidence in his ability to score the ball, almost to a narcisistic level. He also seemed to only be referring to himself and Gay. We were an average scoring team last season, nothing that I would say describes two guys or a team that were able to "score at will".

I like DeMar, and I wish he was better than he is because he speaks well of this City and seems genuineley committed to turning things around in Toronto. However, and only imo, he comes off sounding like he is much better than he is with this quote. I'd like to see him walk the walk before he talks the talk.

Should read the SI.com article first, if you haven't yet. It puts the one WoW quote into a bit of context... he most certainly does mention the whole team, and not just him and Gay... "It's all on what we do as a team. If we go out there, do what we're supposed to do, it's no complaints nowhere."
(he really does need to work on these double-negatives though, boy oh boy)

So when I see a quote like:

"As long as we play on the defensive end, we don’t have to worry about scoring — nothing, none of that — because we can score the ball at will."

...I just take away from that, that Casey has been in their ear about Defense, and that the offense will come easily if Defense is made #1 priority.

I really don't get any of this narcisism you speak of. Demar is one of the most humble guys in the NBA.

[Mediumcore]

Should read the SI.com article first, if you haven't yet. It puts the one WoW quote into a bit of context... he most certainly does mention the whole team, and not just him and Gay... "It's all on what we do as a team. If we go out there, do what we're supposed to do, it's no complaints nowhere."
(he really does need to work on these double-negatives though, boy oh boy)

So when I see a quote like:

...I just take away from that, that Casey has been in their ear about Defense, and that the offense will come easily if Defense is made #1 priority.

I really don't get any of this narcisism you speak of. Demar is one of the most humble guys in the NBA.

Totally agree, just the quote by itself sounds very narcisistic. DeMar is a good dude, and speaks well of the City and the team, so I'm hoping for the best outcome for him, but to make a statement like "We can score at will" is pretty bold. You have to show that you can before you actually say it.