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The Toronto Media advises us not to panic. Are the Raptors where they need to be?

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  • #31
    The team has played much better with Bargnani than without. Conversely, the team has played worse with Derozan on the floor than without him. The problem with this team is its wings. It has solid point guards and solid bigs, but its wings are terrible. Losing Anderson has actually really hurt the Raptors: he was playing reasonably well, as oppose to the awfulness that has been Fields, DeRozan, Kleiza, and Dominic McGuire.

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    • #32
      BD12 wrote: View Post
      Where exactly did I say he was wrong for saying that? He can say whatever he wants to be honest. I'm more upset that he accelerated the rebuild. But facepalm all you want. Trading away a first-round pick for a player that isn't even an all-star is never a good move for a franchise that lacks talent and has trouble attracting decent players in free agency.

      This team is in a much worse position now. 2nd last in the conference with a west coast trip coming up and without a draft pick.

      And I just copied and pasted some quotes where BC actually said the team was going to struggle last season. So yes, he did say last year the team was going to more or less suck.

      And to add -- I'm sorry but even on paper this team looked nothing like a playoff team especially with Landry Fields starting and a project centre in Val.
      Getting Lowry was a steal. Draft picks rarely turn out to be borderline all stars **Derozan, Eddy, Bargs, the list goes on

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      • #33
        Raptor_11 wrote: View Post
        Getting Lowry was a steal. Draft picks rarely turn out to be borderline all stars **Derozan, Eddy, Bargs, the list goes on
        Is it a steal though? I mean the Raptors are 3-13 and have lost five straight with Lowry back in the lineup. That draft pick if the Raptors stay where they are could possibly land a potential franchise player in Shabazz Muhammed.

        Don't get me wrong. Lowry is a good player but he's not an all-star. If he was, this team would not be ten games under .500. He fought with McHale last season and has dealt with injuries throughout his career too.

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        • #34
          BD12 wrote: View Post
          Is it a steal though? I mean the Raptors are 3-13 and have lost five straight with Lowry back in the lineup. That draft pick if the Raptors stay where they are could possibly land a potential franchise player in Shabazz Muhammed.

          Don't get me wrong. Lowry is a good player but he's not an all-star. If he was, this team would not be ten games under .500. He fought with McHale last season and has dealt with injuries throughout his career too.
          Draft picks are LARGE investments that take YEARS. Lowry is a steal for that draft pick, yes.
          The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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          • #35
            If Lowry doesn't sign an extension next year, it's no longer a steal.

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            • #36
              BD12 wrote: View Post
              Where exactly did I say he was wrong for saying that? He can say whatever he wants to be honest. I'm more upset that he accelerated the rebuild. But facepalm all you want. Trading away a first-round pick for a player that isn't even an all-star is never a good move for a franchise that lacks talent and has trouble attracting decent players in free agency.

              This team is in a much worse position now. 2nd last in the conference with a west coast trip coming up and without a draft pick.

              And I just copied and pasted some quotes where BC actually said the team was going to struggle last season. So yes, he did say last year the team was going to more or less suck.

              And to add -- I'm sorry but even on paper this team looked nothing like a playoff team especially with Landry Fields starting and a project centre in Val.
              Ok, first off, I never said a word about what he told fans before last season, I was talking only about how he hyped the team up this season and how it's his job to do so. He's not going to say every year's goal is to make the playoffs, especially when there's no chance of that happening, because that greatly diminishes his ability to be taken seriously. What the raps DID do the season before was push the Jonas angle really hard as well as the youth development angle. There's always some form of snake-oil to peddle. The man might be a bad GM, but he's not an idiot when it comes to manipulating a fan base, that's for sure.

              As for trading for Lowry being a bad move, I completely disagree. Look at our current players. Are Bargs, DD, or Davis better than lowry (too early to tell for Ross and JV obviously)? I would say no, so how is taking a sure-fire good player on a superb contract a worse option than gambling on yet another lottery pick in a draft that experts are declaring weak and devoid of franchise talent? Even if you wanted to make a trade for an all-star PG, sending Lowry back would be a FAR more valuable chip than a 1st round pick.

              Lastly, I fully agree that the team (to me anyway) didn't look like a playoff team on paper. But just about every season preview you could find said the same thing about the raps: they could squeak in if everything broke right. And that's the same at the start of every season: 24 teams or so look like a playoff team 'on paper', because on paper essentially means if everything goes according to plan. The reality sets in once the season starts. Shockingly, (and I'm not directing this at you), some people ignore these previews, and the opinions of those posting on these forums, and chose instead of base their expectations on what the team's GM told them. Blows my mind.

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              • #37
                Nilanka wrote: View Post
                If Lowry doesn't sign an extension next year, it's no longer a steal.
                I think if the raps are lottery-bound next year at the deadline, Lowry gets dealt. That contract would be a cakewalk to unload for a solid asset. If they're headed for the playoffs and things are looking up, good chance he resigns. But you're right, they can't let him walk for nothing.

                What I worry about more is handing him a max contract to get him to say. In a league full of amazing point guards, he's not worth it (though it's early to be making any snap judgements on his value obviously).

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                • #38
                  Nilanka wrote: View Post
                  I would have no problem with giving the "interim GM" title back to Embry. Remember how much cap space he cleared in preparation for Colangelo to take over?

                  This team needs to clean house (players and management), collect draft picks, and completely start over. Embry's the perfect person for the job and is already on staff!
                  The problem is that if they were going to that, they should have:

                  1. tanked outright last year, especially in a lockout shortened season with their #1 pick playing overseas

                  2. traded away every old and/or expiring asset who won't be part of the future core of this team in 3-5 years (either last trade deadline or this past offseason)

                  3. never have even considered Nash

                  4. never signed Fields to such a bad contract that hurts flexibility (especially in light of #3)

                  5. kept their 2013 1st round pick and not bothered with Lowry (especially if he proves to be an overemotional hero-ball head case)

                  6. last year and this year would still be part of the RE-building process, with all the young players expected to be part of the long-term core being spoonfed playing time to develop individually and together as a core

                  7. next season would have been the first BUILDING season (BC essentially tried to fast-track the otherwise perfectly good process by about 2 seasons)


                  I assume that MLSE fears the reaction of the casual / fair-weather fans, should they decide to totally blow it up and let BC, Gherardini, Casey and the old-regime players go (ie: Bargnani, Calderon), to do yet another complete rebuild... not that it wouldn't be a good thing...
                  Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:41 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Nilanka wrote: View Post
                    If Lowry doesn't sign an extension next year, it's no longer a steal.
                    The conditions on the pick also handcuff BC (or a replacement) from using a 1st round pick in potential trades for quite possibly the next 6 years! That is one less significant asset (or multiple assets, since he could have traded 2013, 2015 and 2017 1st round picks, theoretically) he has to work with to reshape this team, either this season or anytime between now and 2018 (depending when they actually lose their pick). The opportunity cost needs to be factored into the pro/cons evalutation of the trade, especially with all the uncertainty around what/when the opportunity cost(s) will actually be felt.
                    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:42 PM.

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                    • #40
                      CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                      I assume that MLSE fears the reaction of the casual / fair-weather fans, should they decide to totally blow it up and let BC, Gherardini, Casey and the old-regime players go (ie: Bargnani, Calderon), to do yet another complete rebuild... not that it wouldn't be a good thing...
                      With the way this season is unfolding, MLSE might be forced into a complete rebuild next summer.

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                      • #41
                        Lark Benson wrote: View Post
                        I can't believe how many people in this thread are saying they're matching their expectations to what the organization stated theirs were. I'm about to get rude here, so forgive me because this is just venting.

                        Do you guys take all of your opinions from press releases? Are you fucking kidding me?

                        It's BC's fucking job to hype the team, sell tickets and get you to watch games and buy merchandise. HIS FUCKING JOB. What in the fuck did you expect them to do, tell you this season was probably gonna be rough and not worth watching? What kind of message would it send to the players if they WEREN'T aiming for the playoffs? I don't doubt that if BC had've declared this another building year or something, you'd be complaining about that too. Christ it's amazing how impossible to please you guys are.

                        I'm genuinely sorry if you drank the kool-aid and now you want something a little tastier, but it's your own fucking fault for being completely blind to the realities of the team. I want BC gone as badly as the next guy, but it has everything to do with his performance and NOTHING to do with the 'expectations' he sets up for the team. Literally nothing that comes from that man's mouth should be trusted or taken without a mountain of salt. After 7 years with the team, how anyone can not realize that is completely beyond me.
                        You are completely misconstruing the point that others and I are making. You are either being intentionally obtuse or not paying attention.

                        It's not about "drinking the kool-aid" or getting my opinions from press releases. If the organization states its goals publicly at the start of each season and, each season, fails miserably to achieve those goals, then they are not living up to their own standards. They should be judged accordingly for that failure.

                        Again, I knew this team was going to be garbage. They added one legit NBA vet to a 20-win team. But, that's not the point. The point is Colangelo and company purposefully changed course - "accelerated the rebuild" - for the purpose of achieving wins and being competitive this season. That was their plan. Not mine. Their plan has failed.

                        It has failed just like the "Phoenix North" plan, the Jermaine O'Neal plan (the best team Colangelo had "ever assembled"), the Turkoglu plan, and the death march plan of last year ("I wish I could go on a year long scouting trip" season). It has failed just like all the trade exceptions and everything else under this regime. When a CEO constantly fails to achieve his stated goals you don't go, "well, I knew it wouldn't work anyway, so who cares", you go, "why can't this go do anything right?" and you fire him.

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                        • #42
                          slaw wrote: View Post
                          You are completely misconstruing the point that others and I are making. You are either being intentionally obtuse or not paying attention.

                          It's not about "drinking the kool-aid" or getting my opinions from press releases. If the organization states its goals publicly at the start of each season and, each season, fails miserably to achieve those goals, then they are not living up to their own standards. They should be judged accordingly for that failure.

                          Again, I knew this team was going to be garbage. They added one legit NBA vet to a 20-win team. But, that's not the point. The point is Colangelo and company purposefully changed course - "accelerated the rebuild" - for the purpose of achieving wins and being competitive this season. That was their plan. Not mine. Their plan has failed.

                          It has failed just like the "Phoenix North" plan, the Jermaine O'Neal plan (the best team Colangelo had "ever assembled"), the Turkoglu plan, and the death march plan of last year ("I wish I could go on a year long scouting trip" season). It has failed just like all the trade exceptions and everything else under this regime. When a CEO constantly fails to achieve his stated goals you don't go, "well, I knew it wouldn't work anyway, so who cares", you go, "why can't this go do anything right?" and you fire him.
                          I have to agree.

                          The accelerated rebuild did not have to mean a playoff team but it should have been at least competitive.

                          BC has yet again failed.... miserably.

                          I always thought the 3 years extension (final year team option) was fair. I thought the final option should be picked up. Now, I am undecided as it is still early but I would strongly lean against not picking up the final year. After 7 years and what is likely to be 5 seasons of no playoffs, enough is enough.

                          I think we have reached the point of where the excuses have run out. You can only blame others or circumstance for so long.

                          For the record, I don't think BC is a bad GM. I think he'll be hired fairly soon after his stay in Toronto runs its course. I just think there comes a point in time when it is best for everyone to go their own way. Toronto and BC appear to be reaching that point - faster than I thought.

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                          • #43
                            lets bring the attention back to doug smith bashing. Everyone should write in their thoughts on BC/AB to his weekend mail bag.
                            in masai we trust

                            water covers 98% of the earth, Mitchell Robinson covers the other 2%

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                            • #44
                              At least we have Jonas!

                              THE COMPLETE TURBOZONE COLLECTION: www.turbozone.ca

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                              • #45
                                slaw wrote: View Post
                                You are completely misconstruing the point that others and I are making. You are either being intentionally obtuse or not paying attention.

                                It's not about "drinking the kool-aid" or getting my opinions from press releases. If the organization states its goals publicly at the start of each season and, each season, fails miserably to achieve those goals, then they are not living up to their own standards. They should be judged accordingly for that failure.
                                No, I fully understand your point. I just don't agree with the way you're making it.

                                To me, expectations or goals set by the organization are irrelevant, and I think that framing this season's failure as an inability to meet those expectations is silly. You stated yourself that you didn't think the team would be that good, so I fail to see why you'd want to hold BC accountable to a standard you yourself disagree with.

                                Just because BC called it an 'accelerated rebuild' doesn't mean that it is. This is still just a regular rebuild and if you take a step back and look at this season with that framework, things aren't nearly as bleak. It's unfair to judge the rebuilding efforts of the past two years 16 games into this season. Especially when Fields has barely played (and was apparently injured when he was), Lowry has either been hurt or playing hurt more often than not, and the team is handing out the bulk of it's minutes to inexperienced players, including starting a rookie center. You're essentially pre-judging the result without letting it play out because the GM got people's hopes up when he shouldn't have.

                                edit: Let me put it another way. If BC had've made the exact same moves he did this offseason but had've simply told fans that the playoffs were a hope but not an expectation, then we'd just be talking about how the rookies are developing and speculating as to whether the team would be playing better when healthy.
                                Last edited by Lark Benson; Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:27 PM.

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