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Forgive me but trading Jose just became a bigger concern (Ricky Rubio ACL)

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  • #46
    akashsingh wrote: View Post
    how many teams never reach their full potential b/c they don't have a true playmaker on the team?

    matt52, I feel like you're setting us up for mediocrity with your insistence on trading jose..........
    Luckily I'm not in charge - so take comfort.

    However, I would question the number of games the Raptors have won with Jose leading the charge.

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    • #47
      With Jose out for a while and no doubt kept out for "precautionary" reasons do you guys think BC makes a move for a young developmental PG?
      @sweatpantsjer

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      • #48
        ceez wrote: View Post
        With Jose out for a while and no doubt kept out for "precautionary" reasons do you guys think BC makes a move for a young developmental PG?
        I hope so! Supposedly Calderon's ankle sprain isn't as back as thought and he will accompany the team on the 5 day road trip in hope that he is able to play at some point. If he is out for longer I hope we trade for another PG. Although Bayless shot well tonight, I don't think he manages a game well. It's difficult to watch this team with him in control.

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        • #49
          i really think a lot of people over value jose. he isn't a great pg. he is a smart, able to run an offense low mistake guy. he isn't the be all end all of the position. his best role is back up point guard where he can exploit lesser quality guards and defensive players. as a starter he is average.

          but if this injury keeps him off the floor these next 4 days we wont be able to unload him until at least the draft. wrong place wrong time situation for him with us. if we were just loading up when he first signed the contract i think we wouldn't even be having this conversation but he is a 30 year old pg who has a history of injuries and with rubio down he is going to play heavy minutes for spain this summer. i seem to recall another spaniard just getting healthy and then playing for spain.

          a big thing to remember is it doesn't get easier to rest and heal up when you get older, my hip hurts after a night on the couch now, and jose has his history from when he was 25-28 years old.

          on the other hand because he isn't an athlete who relies on athleticism it will allow him to play more years at productive levels but we need to let other teams take that chance with him now.

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          • #50
            Miekenstien wrote: View Post
            ...he is a smart, able to run an offence, low mistake guy...
            With those three statements about Jose you paint him as, at least, average, and in my opinion above average by NBA standards.

            I have no problem with trading Jose, but how do you improve the team unless you can get at least an average PG back who is 1. younger or 2. cheaper or 3. worse but comes with a significant upgrade for one of the other positions? And which GM will give you those options when good PG's are at a premium in the league?

            The only trades I can imagine being made are with other teams looking to upgrade their PG going into the playoffs. Are any of them going to give up scoring? Rebounding? Or ball handling/defensive abilities? I don't think so. They may give up picks. So the Raps wind up with late round picks who are going to be useful bench players and maybe some cap relief. And they can use the cap relief chasing a handful of free agents who won't come to TO unless they are over paid. How is this helping the team get better?

            Maybe I am just being obtuse but it hasn't been adequately explained to me. The only way I can see getting rid of Jose, who I believe is being paid fairly for what he brings, is if you are 75% sure he misses 35 + games next year because of injury, or plays at 80% for much of the season because he is playing hurt.

            Matt makes the strongest case for that, but I don't believe it is enough of a sure thing to lose what Jose brings, unless you can find a PG who can replace some of the floor leadership. We have had great examples of Bayless not being able to handle pressure and making bad decisions with the ball. No thanks.

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            • #51
              I'm not sure if my research is accurate, i just went by the yahoo game logs, but in 2008, Calderon had an achilles injury, 2009 left hamstring and 2010 right hamstring. Im not sure if these are recurring injuries, but doesnt seem to have happened at the exact same body part.

              As Matt pointed out to me before, playing at FIBA doesnt just constitute the games they play in the tournament, but also including exhibition games, practices, etc. Given this, i think Calderon can still manage. Even if Rubio is not playing, Spain still has Navarro who logged heavier minutes than Calderon last year. Calderon will definitely see an increase in minutes with Rubio out, but who knows, they might get another PG and maybe Calderon will not take on Rubio's minutes.

              I might be echoing what others are saying, but i will not trade Calderon on the basis of potential injury. If they can get a pass-first PG in return, then thats fine. I believe what he brings to the table is far more worthy. None of his past injuries have been career threatening anyways. With a full training camp and regular practices in between games for next season, if ever he goes down for a couple of games, i would be comfortable having Bayless or Barbosa run the point, again, given the earlier circumstances ive metioned. When his contract is up, im confident he will consider signing with Toronto for less money and by that time, hopefully they've already found their PG of the future with Calderon as the main backup.

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              • #52
                I'd be disappointed if both Bayless and Barbosa are even on the roster next year.

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                • #53
                  tbihis wrote: View Post
                  I'm not sure if my research is accurate, i just went by the yahoo game logs, but in 2008, Calderon had an achilles injury, 2009 left hamstring and 2010 right hamstring. Im not sure if these are recurring injuries, but doesnt seem to have happened at the exact same body part.

                  As Matt pointed out to me before, playing at FIBA doesnt just constitute the games they play in the tournament, but also including exhibition games, practices, etc. Given this, i think Calderon can still manage. Even if Rubio is not playing, Spain still has Navarro who logged heavier minutes than Calderon last year. Calderon will definitely see an increase in minutes with Rubio out, but who knows, they might get another PG and maybe Calderon will not take on Rubio's minutes.

                  I might be echoing what others are saying, but i will not trade Calderon on the basis of potential injury. If they can get a pass-first PG in return, then thats fine. I believe what he brings to the table is far more worthy. None of his past injuries have been career threatening anyways. With a full training camp and regular practices in between games for next season, if ever he goes down for a couple of games, i would be comfortable having Bayless or Barbosa run the point, again, given the earlier circumstances ive metioned. When his contract is up, im confident he will consider signing with Toronto for less money and by that time, hopefully they've already found their PG of the future with Calderon as the main backup.
                  Calderon, after a summer of international ball without a break, is prone to recurring OVERUSE injuries. I've never once said he had a specific chronic injury - and I'm pretty sure I've said the exact opposite.

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                  • #54
                    Jose isn't getting traded, get used to it. BC wants cap flexibility and no team is goin to give up a pick in this draft and/or a young stud for him.

                    Let's all get a pint of guiness and get over it.
                    @sweatpantsjer

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                    • #55
                      Matt52 wrote: View Post
                      Calderon, after a summer of international ball without a break, is prone to recurring OVERUSE injuries. I've never once said he had a specific chronic injury - and I'm pretty sure I've said the exact opposite.
                      But isnt the shortened season going to compensate for that, just a tiny, teenie bit? for the sake of argument? hehehe
                      Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Mon Mar 12, 2012, 04:47 PM.

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                      • #56
                        ceez wrote: View Post
                        Jose isn't getting traded, get used to it. BC wants cap flexibility and no team is goin to give up a pick in this draft and/or a young stud for him.

                        Let's all get a pint of guiness and get over it.
                        Im down.

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                        • #57
                          Nilanka wrote: View Post
                          I'd be disappointed if both Bayless and Barbosa are even on the roster next year.
                          You said AND and not AND/OR so im guessing if one is still on the roster then your'e ok with it?
                          Coz that just might be the case.

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                          • #58
                            tbihis wrote: View Post
                            But isnt the shortened season going to compensate for that, just a tiny, teenie bit? for the sake of argument? hehehe
                            I'm not sure I understand what "that" is.

                            But to reply as I interpreted, it is incredible what a professional basketball players body is capable of with proper off season training and rest. If Calderon quit playing international basketball, you would not hear a peep from me about trading him.

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                            • #59
                              Puffer wrote: View Post
                              With those three statements about Jose you paint him as, at least, average, and in my opinion above average by NBA standards.

                              I have no problem with trading Jose, but how do you improve the team unless you can get at least an average PG back who is 1. younger or 2. cheaper or 3. worse but comes with a significant upgrade for one of the other positions? And which GM will give you those options when good PG's are at a premium in the league?

                              The only trades I can imagine being made are with other teams looking to upgrade their PG going into the playoffs. Are any of them going to give up scoring? Rebounding? Or ball handling/defensive abilities? I don't think so. They may give up picks. So the Raps wind up with late round picks who are going to be useful bench players and maybe some cap relief. And they can use the cap relief chasing a handful of free agents who won't come to TO unless they are over paid. How is this helping the team get better?

                              Maybe I am just being obtuse but it hasn't been adequately explained to me. The only way I can see getting rid of Jose, who I believe is being paid fairly for what he brings, is if you are 75% sure he misses 35 + games next year because of injury, or plays at 80% for much of the season because he is playing hurt.

                              Matt makes the strongest case for that, but I don't believe it is enough of a sure thing to lose what Jose brings, unless you can find a PG who can replace some of the floor leadership. We have had great examples of Bayless not being able to handle pressure and making bad decisions with the ball. No thanks.

                              i am not for trading to trade. i want to get younger or cheaper, i want that 10 million off the books by the summer this year before it blocks our ability to add players and is just used to extend our own players.

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                              • #60
                                Miekenstien wrote: View Post
                                i am not for trading to trade. i want to get younger or cheaper, i want that 10 million off the books by the summer this year before it blocks our ability to add players and is just used to extend our own players.
                                Fair enough. You want the cap flexibility. Period.

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