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  • #16
    raptors2012 wrote: View Post
    I think we've broken some unwritten rule of this website by having an opinion that the team's headed the wrong direction and that management is messing it up again. You've got commie Officer Puffer over here telling you not to have your own opinion.
    I'm not sure anyone is saying you are not allowed to be of this opinion.
    Just be ready to back it up, because for the most part, these are optimistic waters you be treading in.

    Comment


    • #17
      raptors2012 wrote: View Post
      I'm with you on this koncept.

      I think we've broken some unwritten rule of this website by having an opinion that the team's headed the wrong direction and that management is messing it up again. You've got commie Officer Puffer over here telling you not to have your own opinion.
      Cause your opinion stinks

      Comment


      • #18
        NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
        Cause your opinion stinks
        Just because his opinion is something you disagree with and even if it was a heat of the moment overreaction.

        You can't tell someone not to have an opinion because you don't like it.

        The man is a human being and has feelings just like you.

        If anything he deserves an explanation as to why you disagree with him. Not just to be told to shutup and called an idiot.
        If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

        Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

        Comment


        • #19
          LBF wrote: View Post
          Just because his opinion is something you disagree with and even if it was a heat of the moment overreaction.

          You can't tell someone not to have an opinion because you don't like it.

          The man is a human being and has feelings just like you.

          If anything he deserves an explanation as to why you disagree with him. Not just to be told to shutup and called an idiot.
          the f-ck?

          Someone hack into LBFs account and start making nice posts? Hahah

          Comment


          • #20
            joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
            This sounds like that guy in the Horror movies who just starts freaking out, and telling everyone they're all f-cked, and then he runs off and gets stabbed by Michaelf because he panicked instead of just sticking with the plan ... y'know? Hahaha

            I can understand where you are coming from, but the doom and gloom attitude is just not like Toronto sports fans.
            We are generally an optimistic bunch, and regardless of outcome, I think a positive attitude helps everyone out.

            I just have to look at Charlotte and New Jersey to know that the Raptors will be just FINE.
            But, is FINE enough? I think that's what he's getting at. The truth about that can't be answered until after year 5. We are currently after year 2. If I'mnot mistaken.
            If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

            Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

            Comment


            • #21
              LBF wrote: View Post
              But, is FINE enough? I think that's what he's getting at. The truth about that can't be answered until after year 5. We are currently after year 2. If I'mnot mistaken.
              With a coach like Casey, and as many young, talented assets as we have (and will have); when I say FINE, I mean we will be exactly where many of us here at RR envision us being. Competitive year in, and year out.

              Comment


              • #22
                joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                the f-ck?

                Someone hack into LBFs account and start making nice posts? Hahah
                Was I really making mean posts? Cause that was not my intention.

                I apologize if I did. The season just made me miserable. I'm fine now because there is finally some good basketball ti be played.

                I said I was excited about the off-season and next season. Just not the past one. In fact, I don't even want to talk about it.

                Just a joke all around.
                If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

                Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

                Comment


                • #23
                  joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                  With a coach like Casey, and as many young, talented assets as we have (and will have); when I say FINE, I mean we will be exactly where many of us here at RR envision us being. Competitive year in, and year out.
                  I know what you mean. But, I think it's more of a young potential than talent.

                  But, like i said year 2...year 5.
                  If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

                  Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    LBF wrote: View Post
                    Just because his opinion is something you disagree with and even if it was a heat of the moment overreaction.

                    You can't tell someone not to have an opinion because you don't like it.

                    The man is a human being and has feelings just like you.

                    If anything he deserves an explanation as to why you disagree with him. Not just to be told to shutup and called an idiot.
                    im only joking calm down

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      LBF wrote: View Post
                      Just because his opinion is something you disagree with and even if it was a heat of the moment overreaction.

                      You can't tell someone not to have an opinion because you don't like it.

                      The man is a human being and has feelings just like you.

                      If anything he deserves an explanation as to why you disagree with him. Not just to be told to shutup and called an idiot.
                      +1 on reply to NoProps.

                      koncept's original post should have also had some backing. The opinions are fine, just back them up with something. Otherwise it is white, negative noise.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Matt52 wrote: View Post
                        +1 on reply to NoProps.

                        koncept's original post should have also had some backing. The opinions are fine, just back them up with something. Otherwise it is white, negative noise.
                        I'll do the honors [sorry about the partial repost] but the Raptors are stuck between a rebuild and win games now mode. This is the pattern of all Toronto teams. As I mentioned a few points before:

                        1) Look how OKC built their team. Do you think that any players would have wanted to play there say 5 years ago? Between 2007~2009 they drafted KD 2nd, Russ 4th and Harden 3rd - 3 straight years~ Was there a winning culture during those times? Did they intentionally tank? They didn't have to~

                        2) Now let's look at the past champions history & the MVPs since the MJ era:
                        Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas
                        Kobe Bryant, Los Angeles
                        Kobe Bryant, Los Angeles
                        Paul Pierce, Boston
                        Tony Parker, San Antonio
                        Dwyane Wade, Miami Heat
                        Tim Duncan, San Antonio
                        Chauncey Billups, Detroit Pistons
                        Tim Duncan, San Antonio
                        Shaquille O'Neal, Los Angeles
                        Shaquille O'Neal, Los Angeles
                        Shaquille O'Neal, Los Angeles
                        Tim Duncan, San Antonio
                        Michael Jordan, Chicago
                        Michael Jordan, Chicago
                        Michael Jordan, Chicago
                        Hakeem Olajuwon, Houston
                        Hakeem Olajuwon, Houston
                        Michael Jordan, Chicago
                        Michael Jordan, Chicago
                        Michael Jordan, Chicago

                        If you look at the history (except for the Billups' Detroit team that defied logic) all of the teams had a top or couple of top draft picks or bought their way to the final by spending way into the luxury tax for years - more than anyone else eg. Dallas. Forgetting about the over-spenders, you can't tell me that if Kobe went to college he wouldn't have been a top pick. At that time teams were afraid to draft straight out of high school and even Kobe had Shaq for 3 rings and a stacked team for the other two. Also, euro drafting only got better recently. Who wanted to draft a euro player 10 or more years ago? The likes of Dirk, Parker, Gino would have all gone higher if they were drafted with today's scouts.

                        3) Going back to the way OKC built. They didn't have a Bargs type player when they were building the team. They drafted kids and told them to live and learn while they lost until more talent came - through the draft! Why are the Raptors trying to win now and rebuild? It's an oxy-moron. It might be too late to do this now but at the beginning of this year we should have gotten rid of Bargs, Calderon, Barbosa etc. I would include Demar too cause I don't have faith in him to lead a team in the future - more suited as a 6th man. We should have been picking up draft picks since the beginning of this year. You say we'll lose fans? Well, they'll come back once you build a team like OKC and they'll come back in droves.

                        So my point?
                        I have only been advocating tanking because management is doing a very poor job of trying to rebuild. Build through the draft and don't give the young developing guys the tools like a bargs or a jose to bail them out. Make them make their own tools to dig themselves out and get guys like Jamal to teach them. We're half here and half there right now. Typical of Toronto sports management.

                        Even if this team is losing, as long as there's talent, excitement and hope for the future then I'll keep watching and rooting them on. Right now I think we're on track to becoming another mediocre team.

                        Unless we win the lottery~

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          raptors2012 wrote: View Post
                          'll do the honors [sorry about the partial repost] but the Raptors are stuck between a rebuild and win games now mode. This is the pattern of all Toronto teams. As I mentioned a few points before:

                          1) Look how OKC built their team. Do you think that any players would have wanted to play there say 5 years ago? Between 2007~2009 they drafted KD 2nd, Russ 4th and Harden 3rd - 3 straight years~ Was there a winning culture during those times? Did they intentionally tank? They didn't have to~
                          So the argument is lose, get high draft picks ,and take the best players in the draft (with the benefit of hindsight of course). Nevermind the fact anybody drafted is an unknown and gamble. It seems the same people saying JV has done nothing and proven nothing are the same people saying you need top draft picks to build a winner - who coincidentally have also proven nothing. Do you think Washington drafted Brown with the intention of him being a bust? Do you think Portland drafted Oden with the intention of him becoming eligible for a handicap parking permit by age 22?

                          With that said, the Raptors have a prospective franchise centre coming over who many agree with the benefit of hindsight would have been a #2 pick last year and would likely be a #2 pick this year. What happens if JV becomes the all-star C so many are hoping for? Oh I know the argument is, "Yeah, but he won't." What happens if Toronto drafts an all-star at 8, 9, or 10? Oh I know the argument is, "Yeah, but they won't."

                          These arguments are all based on glass half empty or half full perspective.

                          2) Now let's look at the past champions history & the MVPs since the MJ era:
                          Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas
                          Kobe Bryant, Los Angeles
                          Kobe Bryant, Los Angeles
                          Paul Pierce, Boston
                          Tony Parker, San Antonio
                          Dwyane Wade, Miami Heat
                          Tim Duncan, San Antonio
                          Chauncey Billups, Detroit Pistons
                          Tim Duncan, San Antonio
                          Shaquille O'Neal, Los Angeles
                          Shaquille O'Neal, Los Angeles
                          Shaquille O'Neal, Los Angeles
                          Tim Duncan, San Antonio
                          Michael Jordan, Chicago
                          Michael Jordan, Chicago
                          Michael Jordan, Chicago
                          Hakeem Olajuwon, Houston
                          Hakeem Olajuwon, Houston
                          Michael Jordan, Chicago
                          Michael Jordan, Chicago
                          Michael Jordan, Chicago

                          If you look at the history (except for the Billups' Detroit team that defied logic) all of the teams had a top or couple of top draft picks or bought their way to the final by spending way into the luxury tax for years - more than anyone else eg. Dallas. Forgetting about the over-spenders, you can't tell me that if Kobe went to college he wouldn't have been a top pick. At that time teams were afraid to draft straight out of high school and even Kobe had Shaq for 3 rings and a stacked team for the other two. Also, euro drafting only got better recently. Who wanted to draft a euro player 10 or more years ago? The likes of Dirk, Parker, Gino would have all gone higher if they were drafted with today's scouts.
                          Yes, let us look at the past champions history and the MVP's since the MJ era:
                          Dirk - drafted 9
                          Kobe - drafted 13
                          PP - drafted 10
                          The former Mr. Longoria - drafted 28
                          D-Wade - drafted 5th
                          Tim Duncan - drafted 1st
                          Billups - drafted 3rd (and didn't become Mr. Big Shot for 6 years and 5 teams)
                          Shaq - drafted 1st
                          MJ - drafted 3rd (and was 7 years in the league before he won)
                          Hakeem - drafted 2nd (and arguably only won because Jordan left for 2 years in his prime)

                          I'm not seeing a lot of support for tanking and drafting high. Shaq was a phenom much in the same mold as LBJ. Duncan only went to SAS because Robinson was out for a season (read: luck).

                          And all the shoulda, would, coulda comments of, "Kobe would have been a top pick had he gone to college" or "the Euros would have gone higher with today's scouts" are unsubstantiated nonsense - no offense. 3 of the top 7 picks in 2002 were foreign with Yao Ming, Tskitishvili, and Nene. Harrison Barnes was a #1 pick out of high school, last year he was a top 3 pick, this year he is looking like a 6-7 pick.


                          3) Going back to the way OKC built. They didn't have a Bargs type player when they were building the team. They drafted kids and told them to live and learn while they lost until more talent came - through the draft! Why are the Raptors trying to win now and rebuild? It's an oxy-moron. It might be too late to do this now but at the beginning of this year we should have gotten rid of Bargs, Calderon, Barbosa etc. I would include Demar too cause I don't have faith in him to lead a team in the future - more suited as a 6th man. We should have been picking up draft picks since the beginning of this year. You say we'll lose fans? Well, they'll come back once you build a team like OKC and they'll come back in droves.
                          Once again the benefit of hindsight. Clearly you don't remember the doubts people had of skinny Durant when the team went from 31 wins to 20 wins and then just to 23 wins. Clearly you don't remember the surprise of picking Westbrook at #4 and the doubts of whether or not he was capable of running the point in the NBA. Serge Ibaka was not even on the 2009 DraftExpress.com or NBADraft.net mock drafts - not even 2nd round. Things have worked out for them and it is only with hindsight you can say with confidence that those were the right decisions. At the time the decisions were made they were hardly slam dunks (except Harden at #3).

                          If there was a cookie-cutter way to build a team, don't you think someone would patent it and sell it to teams? So many factors go in to building a winning team - with luck being a main ingredient - that it is impossible to pick one method and say it will work with any absolute certainty.

                          Boston won an NBA championship by cashing out their assets and cap space for proven, all-star veterans. Why shouldn't Toronto go that route?

                          Indiana has built a team with staying power by being patient and becoming on the fringe of elite status in the league. Why shouldn't Toronto go that route?

                          Chicago had a nice base and hit lottery gold in getting Rose. Maybe Toronto will go that route.

                          So my point?
                          Toronto is screwed, I got it. My point is there is more than one way to build an NBA team.

                          I have only been advocating tanking because management is doing a very poor job of trying to rebuild. Build through the draft and don't give the young developing guys the tools like a bargs or a jose to bail them out. Make them make their own tools to dig themselves out and get guys like Jamal to teach them. We're half here and half there right now. Typical of Toronto sports management.
                          Oh, I get it it now. Do the Sacramento (6 years and counting!). Or wait, do the Minnesota (8 years and counting!). Or how about the Clippers (playing in their 2nd playoff series in 15 years!). Even better, lets do the Charlotte (add 2 lottery picks and drop 27 games becoming the worst winning percentage team in history - they are on the right track!).

                          Even if this team is losing, as long as there's talent, excitement and hope for the future then I'll keep watching and rooting them on. Right now I think we're on track to becoming another mediocre team.
                          It is funny how people's perspective differ because I do see talent, excitement, and hope for the future. I will keep watching and rooting them on because my love of the sport and loyalty as a fan to Toronto ensures it (just like you can't chose who you fall in love with, you can't chose which team you follow - unless you are a gold digger or a band wagon rider). Right now I'm not sure what we are on track to become. Without the benefit of hindsight no one can answer that question.

                          Unless we win the lottery~
                          Oh, of course! I know Boston fans felt the same way in 1998. Here they drafted Paul Pierce at 10 when they could of had Michaek Olowokandi at #1.



                          Here is the situation with Toronto:
                          - they laid out a plan that they have followed to a tee
                          - they have a great coach
                          - they have innovative and creative front office people
                          - they have cap space
                          - they have cheap players on rookie contracts
                          - they have a great prospect at C
                          - they have players with trade value
                          - they have prospects on cheap rookie deals
                          - they have solid role players
                          - they have a to be determined lottery pick coming
                          - they have the means to continue the rebuild in any number of ways: they have options of OKC rebuild, BOS rebuild, IND rebuild.

                          And finally but most importantly:
                          - they have options.
                          Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sat Apr 28, 2012, 08:09 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            No. I don't think you got my point.

                            About the MVPs, my bad on not being more clear but if you look at those teams (forgetting about the MVPs), they all had very high draft picks - usually top 3 in strong draft years. Parker had Duncan - Kobe had Shaq - Dwade also had Shaq - PP had Ray allen + KG (again, who would have been drafted higher if he went to college and scouts weren't afraid of HS kids). We got screwed with Bargs cause they changed the rule that year to omit HS players (which could have been Durant). We got Bargs in a draft that's fighting with the Kmart draft as one of the worst.

                            SAC, MIN, CHA? Who did they draft so high that got them to were they are now? NOBODY! Exactly my point. They did what the Raptors are doing now. Wasn't LAC going nowhere until they got Blake?

                            Durant. He and Oden were the consensus 1 and 2 picks. He didn't just come out of nowhere to be this good.

                            Why are you even mentioning building like Boston? They're the originators of the 3 superstars converging. How do you think Toronto is going to pull off a build like that? By having three American superstar players wanting to come to play in Toronto? Come on, get real man.

                            I listed those champion teams to show that they all built through the draft with several high draft picks (and picks which would have been higher if scouts weren't afraid of HS kids or euro scouting was better). and YES, there's many ways to build a team but recent history shows that there's only one way to win a championship. Unless your goal is to get your foot in the door of the playoffs.

                            Don't get me wrong. I'm excited about the fact that we have Val and that's about it. Everyone else can get traded IMO as they are totally over-valued (DD) or they don't fit into a proper rebuilding plan.
                            Last edited by raptors2012; Sat Apr 28, 2012, 09:49 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              i'm a very bipolar raptors fan. no doubt we've got a better foundation than CHA and other bottom feeders (coaching, mentality, assets) and I'm optimistic of that.

                              Aside from all the positive growth from the season, wouldn't you still want the 62 games to result in a better draft position then we've been getting with these last 'lottery' years ? I know drafting is a crapshoot but you gotta think the late march-apr winning runs might've had the raptors miss a curry/rubio/evans/george/hayward/monroe. I don't want a white flag pathetic Charlotte/WAS rebuild, but UTH and CLE seem to be on the right track. I think that this team needs to draft a future quality starter or 1A player not just excellent 6th man of the future. Open to debate if those last 2 aren't doing a better rebuild.
                              Last edited by koncept; Sat Apr 28, 2012, 09:48 AM.
                              in masai we trust

                              water covers 98% of the earth, Mitchell Robinson covers the other 2%

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                raptors2012 wrote: View Post
                                No. I don't think you got my point.

                                About the MVPs, my bad on not being more clear but if you look at those teams (forgetting about the MVPs), they all had very high draft picks - usually top 3 in strong draft years. Parker had Duncan - Kobe had Shaq - Dwade also had Shaq - PP had Ray allen + KG (again, who would have been drafted higher if he went to college and scouts weren't afraid of HS kids). We got screwed with Bargs cause they changed the rule that year to omit HS players (which could have been Durant). We got Bargs in a draft that's fighting with the Kmart draft as one of the worst.

                                SAC, MIN, CHA? Who did they draft so high that got them to were they are now? NOBODY! Exactly my point. They did what the Raptors are doing now. Wasn't LAC going nowhere until they got Blake?
                                Minnesota has a deep ingrained culture of losing. They were about to bust out of it until Rubio went down - but even that took 8 years and is now hardly a guarantee moving forward. And since when is Kevin Love nobody?

                                Sacramento has a deep ingrained culture of losing. They are nowhere near righting the ship despite years of high draft picks.

                                The Clippers were still going nowhere until they cashed out their assets (expiring contract in Chris Kaman, prospect in Aminu, first round draft pick from Minnesota, and proven young player in Eric Gordon) for Chris Paul. The Clippers own 32 games last year.

                                Do you think Sacramento, Minnesota, and Charlotte have selected players with the intent of them not working out? The draft is a gamble.


                                raptors2012 wrote: View Post
                                Durant. He and Oden were the consensus 1 and 2 picks. He didn't just come out of nowhere to be this good.
                                Clearly you have a short term memory or lack skills to use Google to go back to 2008 and 2009 and look at the things written about Durant at that time.

                                raptors2012 wrote: View Post
                                Why are you even mentioning building like Boston? They're the originators of the 3 superstars converging. How do you think Toronto is going to pull off a build like that? By having three American superstar players wanting to come to play in Toronto? Come on, get real man.
                                Boston had one star player and traded for 2 others. Players can't control where they land in a trade.

                                Also, if you read carefully as to what I wrote, Boston was an example of another way to build. You are advocating one way as the only way when it is far from the truth.

                                raptors2012 wrote: View Post
                                I listed those champion teams to show that they all built through the draft with several high draft picks (and picks which would have been higher if scouts weren't afraid of HS kids or euro scouting was better). and YES, there's many ways to build a team but recent history shows that there's only one way to win a championship. Unless your goal is to get your foot in the door of the playoffs.
                                The championship teams used the draft as one piece of the puzzle - not the only piece.

                                And for a minute assuming you are correct, which I don't think you are, then you are still looking at just 4 of the 10 players listed who were top 3 draft picks.

                                The argument of where they coulda or shoulda been drafted doesn't fly because it didn't happen. Doing such a thing is cherry picking history and adds absolutely zero credibility to the argument.

                                Everyone has the answers in hindsight.

                                raptors2012 wrote: View Post
                                Don't get me wrong. I'm excited about the fact that we have Val and that's about it. Everyone else can get traded IMO as they are totally over-valued (DD) or they don't fit into a proper rebuilding plan.
                                Glad you are excited about something.

                                But you seem to be forgetting LeBron's problem in Cleveland. Despite him being one of the best talents in the whole league, he couldn't win on his own. Toronto has solid complimentary pieces and role players to go with a great coach.

                                And my point is clearly not being understood because there is no proper rebuilding plan. If there was and it was that simple, everybody would be doing it.

                                Comment

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