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  • #31
    heinz57 wrote: View Post
    Comparing the potential of the Canadian team of the future to the perennial #2 team in the world is a bit far fetched

    Spain has had an outstanding program for the last decade or so.. it goes beyond just the assembled talent... which, you still have to give to Spain.. proven vs potential is an easy bet

    When is the last time Canada has even cracked the top 20?
    I don't think it is if you look at the influex of talent coming out of Canada. Andrew wiggins, Anthony Bennett, Tristan Thompson, kabongo, Corey Joseph, kris Joseph, XRM(surprised no one mentioned him), Kelly olynick, Kevin pangos, Andrew Nicholson, and sacre.

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    • #32
      NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
      I don't think it is if you look at the influex of talent coming out of Canada. Andrew wiggins, Anthony Bennett, Tristan Thompson, kabongo, Corey Joseph, kris Joseph, XRM(surprised no one mentioned him), Kelly olynick, Kevin pangos, Andrew Nicholson, and sacre.
      the thing is it's an influx of POTENTIAL talent. Not a single one of them is proven yet.

      all that is right now is a list of names with the possibility of being talented.

      add to that Canada Basketball's track record.

      versus, Spain.

      Proven roster, proven players, proven national system.

      Saying that the national team is going to be on Spain's level is like saying the Hornets are going to be on the Lakers' level in a couple of years.

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      • #33
        heinz57 wrote: View Post
        the thing is it's an influx of POTENTIAL talent. Not a single one of them is proven yet.

        all that is right now is a list of names with the possibility of being talented.

        add to that Canada Basketball's track record.

        versus, Spain.

        Proven roster, proven players, proven national system.

        Saying that the national team is going to be on Spain's level is like saying the Hornets are going to be on the Lakers' level in a couple of years.
        That is true but i doubt spain has anyone that has the talent of A Wiggs. He's the best SF prospect since LeBron and he's had a more successful high school career than LBJ (I'm Pretty sure). Having him alone would increase the teams talent big time. Give these guys 2 -3 years and they'll be ballin like crazy.

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        • #34
          heinz57 wrote: View Post
          the thing is it's an influx of POTENTIAL talent. Not a single one of them is proven yet.

          all that is right now is a list of names with the possibility of being talented.

          add to that Canada Basketball's track record.

          versus, Spain.

          Proven roster, proven players, proven national system.

          Saying that the national team is going to be on Spain's level is like saying the Hornets are going to be on the Lakers' level in a couple of years.
          But this potential talent has already held their own against the top players in the world of their own age, whether it be in international play or in college/high school, and success at those levels tends to continue on. Which is why I feel confident that this team will eventually be very strong.
          "Stop eating your sushi."
          "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
          "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
          - Jack Armstrong

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          • #35
            JimiCliff wrote: View Post
            But this potential talent has already held their own against the top players in the world of their own age, whether it be in international play or in college/high school, and success at those levels tends to continue on. Which is why I feel confident that this team will eventually be very strong.
            There's SO MUCH more to factor in though.

            On the adult national level, who's mentoring these kids? The veteran leadership on the Spanish team is FAR superior to Canada. Would you rather a young up and coming big man to follow the example of? The Gasol brothers, or Joel Anthony?

            Then there's the actual national organization. There's no Canadian basketball identity. The only Canadian players getting recognition are the small number of them getting recognition in the US. What about within our own country? What happens when one of the potentially talented players falls well short of the projections? What's the backup plan? Is there enough of a basketball system in Canada, that they have a well of talent to draw from? in short, NO there isn't. Basketball in Canada is HORRIBLY underfunded. Our system of developing talent internally is almost non-existent. Who here watched the All-Canada Classic last year? I'm going to bet very few, if any at all. Rogers TV isn't a hot television destination

            Canada Basketball depends on players being developed outside of their system, in the US's system. Where the US is developing THOUSANDS of young players, we're developing a few dozen players, relying on the miniscule amount of players we send over there to be as competitive as the top 5% of their thousands. Meanwhile, our internal system is a forgotten entity. CIS ball is basically treated like it's a glorified rec league.

            And then there's the coaching.

            Jay Triano. That's all.

            I'm not trying to shit on the national team. nothing would make me happier for all of them to turn out to be world killers and bring about a basketball renaissance in the country. but realistically, come on.

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            • #36
              heinz57 wrote: View Post
              There's SO MUCH more to factor in though.

              On the adult national level, who's mentoring these kids? The veteran leadership on the Spanish team is FAR superior to Canada. Would you rather a young up and coming big man to follow the example of? The Gasol brothers, or Joel Anthony?

              Then there's the actual national organization. There's no Canadian basketball identity. The only Canadian players getting recognition are the small number of them getting recognition in the US. What about within our own country? What happens when one of the potentially talented players falls well short of the projections? What's the backup plan? Is there enough of a basketball system in Canada, that they have a well of talent to draw from? in short, NO there isn't. Basketball in Canada is HORRIBLY underfunded. Our system of developing talent internally is almost non-existent. Who here watched the All-Canada Classic last year? I'm going to bet very few, if any at all. Rogers TV isn't a hot television destination

              Canada Basketball depends on players being developed outside of their system, in the US's system. Where the US is developing THOUSANDS of young players, we're developing a few dozen players, relying on the miniscule amount of players we send over there to be as competitive as the top 5% of their thousands. Meanwhile, our internal system is a forgotten entity. CIS ball is basically treated like it's a glorified rec league.

              And then there's the coaching.

              Jay Triano. That's all.

              I'm not trying to shit on the national team. nothing would make me happier for all of them to turn out to be world killers and bring about a basketball renaissance in the country. but realistically, come on.
              Bang on.

              Bolded: Why do you think so many players go to highschool in the US?

              Wiggins and XRM attending the same school is about the only Canadian "identity" right now.
              Twitter - @thekid_it

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              • #37
                isaacthompson wrote: View Post
                Bang on.

                Bolded: Why do you think so many players go to highschool in the US?

                Wiggins and XRM attending the same school is about the only Canadian "identity" right now.
                The same reason that many of the best foreign players play high school ball in the US: better competition and more exposure, which makes it more likely that they'll play at a major US university, which makes it more likely that they'll be drafted in the NBA.
                "Stop eating your sushi."
                "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                - Jack Armstrong

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                • #38
                  JimiCliff wrote: View Post
                  The same reason that many of the best foreign players play high school ball in the US: better competition and more exposure, which makes it more likely that they'll play at a major US university, which makes it more likely that they'll be drafted in the NBA.
                  Do many of the best foreign players play highschool ball?

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                  • #39
                    heinz57 wrote: View Post
                    There's SO MUCH more to factor in though.

                    On the adult national level, who's mentoring these kids? The veteran leadership on the Spanish team is FAR superior to Canada. Would you rather a young up and coming big man to follow the example of? The Gasol brothers, or Joel Anthony?

                    Then there's the actual national organization. There's no Canadian basketball identity. The only Canadian players getting recognition are the small number of them getting recognition in the US. What about within our own country? What happens when one of the potentially talented players falls well short of the projections? What's the backup plan? Is there enough of a basketball system in Canada, that they have a well of talent to draw from? in short, NO there isn't. Basketball in Canada is HORRIBLY underfunded. Our system of developing talent internally is almost non-existent. Who here watched the All-Canada Classic last year? I'm going to bet very few, if any at all. Rogers TV isn't a hot television destination

                    Canada Basketball depends on players being developed outside of their system, in the US's system. Where the US is developing THOUSANDS of young players, we're developing a few dozen players, relying on the miniscule amount of players we send over there to be as competitive as the top 5% of their thousands. Meanwhile, our internal system is a forgotten entity. CIS ball is basically treated like it's a glorified rec league.

                    And then there's the coaching.

                    Jay Triano. That's all.

                    I'm not trying to shit on the national team. nothing would make me happier for all of them to turn out to be world killers and bring about a basketball renaissance in the country. but realistically, come on.
                    A lot of what you say here is true, but I think what people including myself are excited about is the potential for a lot of these things to start to change. Yeah, there's a lack of veterans who would be great mentors (though Steve Nash working with the young PGs, as he did last summer, is about as great a learning experience as you can hope for). But by 2020, some of these guys are going to have 8+ years experience in the NBA, as well as several major international tournaments. By that point, they'll be ready to mentor the young guys coming up. Maybe we even have veterans who have been a part of championship teams in the NBA.

                    The depth issue is also changing. It's not unrealistic to think that by 2020, he have as many as 25 players playing in the NBA, in d-leagues, or in top leagues in Europe (compared to only half-a-dozen a few years ago). Guys who would have been starters on Team Canada a few years ago probably wouldn't be able to make the cut in a few years. Yeah, it's still worlds behind the US in terms of number of players produced, but so is every other nation. As with other nations who rival Canada in hockey, what matters is top end talent, not sheer volume of players.

                    Yes, Basketball Canada is underfunded, and completely outside the spotlight in the Canadian sports scene. But one superstar and one really good tournament will change that. If Wiggins develops into a superstar and participates in our national tournaments (as he's shown every indication he will to this point), corporations will be lining up to sponsor the team. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that this year was the first year TSN picked up the MacDonalds All-American Game, because they know that there's enough interest in Wiggins that it's worth their while.

                    I honestly don't have a problem with most of our players being developed in the US prep schools and NCAA. If that's the best and most competitive development system in the world, why wouldn't we want our guys going through there? As Basketball Canada gets better funding as their international results improve, they can do more, but what's the benefit in pouring money into duplicating a system that already exists south of the border and is entirely available to our kids? Instead, Basketball Canada needs to get as many kids as possible playing at a young age, identify talent as early as possible, and make sure that coaches at all levels have the knowledge and skill necessary to help these guys grow. But once they're sixteen or so, I'm fine with guys going the prep-school and NCAA route, as long as they're still playing for the national team at every available opportunity, and the national program is giving them all the additional support they need outside of their school to continue to develop. All of those top NCAA prospects playing together on CIA Bounce helps foster some chemistry and camaraderie amongst our best.

                    In the one-step-at-a-time approach, let's see how many top players Basketball Canada can get out for FIBA Americas in August, and see if they can finish top 4 and get a qualification for FIBA Worlds next year.

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                    • #40
                      Honestly Canada basketball is rapidly increasing in popularity and exposure. The NBL seems like nothing right now, but a couple of years down the road i can see it being like the CHL or CFL. Where we'll actually see players from the NBL enter the draft and get drafted. Basketball is getting steadily popular in Canada as it should

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                      • #41
                        octothorp wrote: View Post
                        A lot of what you say here is true, but I think what people including myself are excited about is the potential for a lot of these things to start to change. Yeah, there's a lack of veterans who would be great mentors (though Steve Nash working with the young PGs, as he did last summer, is about as great a learning experience as you can hope for). But by 2020, some of these guys are going to have 8+ years experience in the NBA, as well as several major international tournaments. By that point, they'll be ready to mentor the young guys coming up. Maybe we even have veterans who have been a part of championship teams in the NBA.

                        The depth issue is also changing. It's not unrealistic to think that by 2020, he have as many as 25 players playing in the NBA, in d-leagues, or in top leagues in Europe (compared to only half-a-dozen a few years ago). Guys who would have been starters on Team Canada a few years ago probably wouldn't be able to make the cut in a few years. Yeah, it's still worlds behind the US in terms of number of players produced, but so is every other nation. As with other nations who rival Canada in hockey, what matters is top end talent, not sheer volume of players.

                        Yes, Basketball Canada is underfunded, and completely outside the spotlight in the Canadian sports scene. But one superstar and one really good tournament will change that. If Wiggins develops into a superstar and participates in our national tournaments (as he's shown every indication he will to this point), corporations will be lining up to sponsor the team. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that this year was the first year TSN picked up the MacDonalds All-American Game, because they know that there's enough interest in Wiggins that it's worth their while.

                        I honestly don't have a problem with most of our players being developed in the US prep schools and NCAA. If that's the best and most competitive development system in the world, why wouldn't we want our guys going through there? As Basketball Canada gets better funding as their international results improve, they can do more, but what's the benefit in pouring money into duplicating a system that already exists south of the border and is entirely available to our kids? Instead, Basketball Canada needs to get as many kids as possible playing at a young age, identify talent as early as possible, and make sure that coaches at all levels have the knowledge and skill necessary to help these guys grow. But once they're sixteen or so, I'm fine with guys going the prep-school and NCAA route, as long as they're still playing for the national team at every available opportunity, and the national program is giving them all the additional support they need outside of their school to continue to develop. All of those top NCAA prospects playing together on CIA Bounce helps foster some chemistry and camaraderie amongst our best.

                        In the one-step-at-a-time approach, let's see how many top players Basketball Canada can get out for FIBA Americas in August, and see if they can finish top 4 and get a qualification for FIBA Worlds next year.
                        Can't argue too much.. and the bolded part is the kind of outlook i can fully get behind

                        i do have issue with team canada being projected to be #2 based on potential alone, when the current #2 has an excellent track record on all levels, not just potential

                        i don't have a problem with players going to the NCAA as much as i do have a problem with our internal development.

                        it's great that the handful of quality players are going south to develop their game.. but what is Canada Basketball doing for the rest of the players? There's a shit ton more kids playing ball in Canada than that. Is Canada Basketball inviting these players to development camps? In the off-seasons, are these kids getting invited to compete in competitive tournaments? anything? i'm not asking to be facetious, i actually have no clue.. my knowledge on the matter goes back over a decade, when the answer would have been a straight up "NO".. maybe one of the younger board members can shed some light on this (Props? Rueben?).. is youth player development done strictly within the school level? Is Canada Basketball actually doing anything to help cultivate exceptional players, or are they sitting around waiting for the players to come to them?

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                        • #42
                          heinz57 wrote: View Post
                          Can't argue too much.. and the bolded part is the kind of outlook i can fully get behind

                          i do have issue with team canada being projected to be #2 based on potential alone, when the current #2 has an excellent track record on all levels, not just potential

                          i don't have a problem with players going to the NCAA as much as i do have a problem with our internal development.

                          it's great that the handful of quality players are going south to develop their game.. but what is Canada Basketball doing for the rest of the players? There's a shit ton more kids playing ball in Canada than that. Is Canada Basketball inviting these players to development camps? In the off-seasons, are these kids getting invited to compete in competitive tournaments? anything? i'm not asking to be facetious, i actually have no clue.. my knowledge on the matter goes back over a decade, when the answer would have been a straight up "NO".. maybe one of the younger board members can shed some light on this (Props? Rueben?).. is youth player development done strictly within the school level? Is Canada Basketball actually doing anything to help cultivate exceptional players, or are they sitting around waiting for the players to come to them?
                          There are many basketball leagues around Ontario. They aren't that great compared to the US (Yet) but the players are pretty good. I don't know too much about it, since i haven't really played in any leagues. Around where i live not too many people are into basketball, i have a group of friends who love it but its only about like 5 or 6 of us. Brampton seems to be producing a shit ton of players, back when i used to live there no one used to play ball. I guess its because of all the Black people that got shifted there from Markham i think it was. Honestly i'm just rambling on, i don't know too much about how players get developed here seeing as i don't really play competitively too often. I'm pretty sure there are basketball Canada camps because of the commercials i've seen on NBA TV Canada. If you play really well for your high school team or rec league or whatever, they will most likely invite you to their summer camp. But this is all pure speculation on my part, i'll look into it and let you know.

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                          • #43
                            All of this talk of domestic systems is pretty unimportant. In the end, for Canada, it will be much more important to create a sense of pride for guys to want to come play, and to invest in that aspect of the programme accordingly.

                            Invest in a top tier management and coaching staff. Hard to judge. Triano was actually a pretty good international coach, obviously helped by having Nash play for him. It would be hilarious if they hired Casey as a defensive specialist assistant.

                            In terms of management, having Nash play a big role will be great for attracting both sponsors and players. He's also a true pro who knows what it takes to have that kind of programme. He'll recognize if things are lacking, because he knows what he needed to maintain his performance. If Nash can have an impact on the way the country presents an opportunity to develop its' players in the summer, that will be much bigger than any impact on the NBL or CIS basketball type things. They need guys to want to get together every summer and train together, not just throw things together before each tournament. This means they also need roster consistency, which should be possible with the talent crop coming in. THey need to make it attractive and easy for these guys to juggle the pro life and play for the national team.

                            Talent is by far the most important thing. Spain is a funny example, because they were hardly a powerhouse in European basketball, until Gasol developed. The players their system produces that stay in their system are not better than players produced(and playing) in places like Greece, Lithuania, Russia, Serbia, Croatia....Gasol's development paid immediate dividends, and his whole generation has produced some pretty talented players, but also the team is filled with pretty standard role players. The development of that generation was largely inspired by the Dream team at the Barcelona Olympics, not by national heroes. Hopefully, their young generation will be similarly inspired now that they have guys to look up to...unfortunately, their country is in the economic crapper and probably going to cut money from athletics for awhile.

                            The development of Canada's generation is similarly largely inspired by more exposure to the NBA game from the Grizzlies and Raptors, and helped by Canada having at least one national hero of the game in Nash. It never mattered having good domestic systems. It's up to Canada Basketball not to squander that enthusiasm, because if they get this generation to commit (and treat them the right way), then future generations should follow. They need to capitalize on the chance for success, because it can really snowball into the future.
                            Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Apr 11, 2013, 04:22 PM.

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                            • #44
                              For the curious, Tristan Thompson has shown a right-handed jump shot the past three games. Not a push shot (which he developed earlier this season), a jump shot.

                              He also swished a 20 footer after a whistle yesterday, again shot right-handed.

                              Tristan continues to maintain he's left handed.

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                              • #45
                                NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
                                Honestly Canada basketball is rapidly increasing in popularity and exposure. The NBL seems like nothing right now, but a couple of years down the road i can see it being like the CHL or CFL. Where we'll actually see players from the NBL enter the draft and get drafted. Basketball is getting steadily popular in Canada as it should
                                This will not happen as all the players in that league will have already been draft eligible, we may see free agents get some looks, but not drafted.
                                Twitter @WJ_FINDLAY

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