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  • #16
    Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I am sure there are people out there.

    There seems to be a changing of the guard in recent years. Lots of grunts in organizations getting opportunities either due to cheaper costs or the old guard being put out to pasture.... or teams hoping to replicate success of SA and OKC.

    Who would have thought Rob Henningan in Orlando? Ujiri in Denver? Wallace in Cleveland? Demps in NO?

    None are/were flashing names but all are making their mark now.
    Except all those teams were knowingly heading into rebuilding type situations...Even Ujiri who pulled the miraculous Melo trade...was clearly hired because they could afford to give an unknown GM a shot, knowing the first move he'd have to make could have easily led into a rebuilding cycle.

    It is not great management to start a rebuilding cycle and get a couple of talented pieces in the draft...we'll see how all those teams look in a couple of years. Not saying they'll be bad, but that other than Ujiri, I'm not impressed by anything those other guys have done, and that they really haven't done anything to really test their mettle yet. We'll see if Hennigan can draft/acquire a franchise talent to replace Howard. We'll see if the guys in CLE and NOH put good teams around their young franchise players or if they also go into a mediocrity cycle.

    Getting an unknown is just that...unknown. That is also how we ended up with Rob Babcock. So I think rolling the dice when the team is set to compete for the playoffs is very risky, and that in such a situation if you have to make a change, you'd probably want someone with some kind of reliable track record.

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    • #17
      white men can't jump wrote: View Post
      Except all those teams were knowingly heading into rebuilding type situations...Even Ujiri who pulled the miraculous Melo trade...was clearly hired because they could afford to give an unknown GM a shot, knowing the first move he'd have to make could have easily led into a rebuilding cycle.

      It is not great management to start a rebuilding cycle and get a couple of talented pieces in the draft...we'll see how all those teams look in a couple of years. Not saying they'll be bad, but that other than Ujiri, I'm not impressed by anything those other guys have done, and that they really haven't done anything to really test their mettle yet. We'll see if Hennigan can draft/acquire a franchise talent to replace Howard. We'll see if the guys in CLE and NOH put good teams around their young franchise players or if they also go into a mediocrity cycle.

      Getting an unknown is just that...unknown. That is also how we ended up with Rob Babcock. So I think rolling the dice when the team is set to compete for the playoffs is very risky, and that in such a situation if you have to make a change, you'd probably want someone with some kind of reliable track record.
      Babcock did not come from a franchise that had any winning culture (Minnesota).

      I am surprised of the guys I listed you only have any praise for Ujiri.

      Demps made the trade for Vasquez, signed Anderson, got Lopez. Rivers seems to be a miss but even that is too early to tell. They have good financial situation with just anywhere from 33-42M committed for next season.

      Henningan has acquired 3 first round picks over the next 4 drafts. I think he certainly got good value for Dwight all things considered. Getting Tobias Harris was good. Also this is the first year in their rebuild, they have not even had a chance to get a high draft pick yet. For a team just starting a rebuild they are already ahead of the game.

      Wallace, in my opinion, takes the cake. I questioned the drafting of Waiters and Thompson but while still questionable they are no longer consensus 'bad' picks. They have upwards of 10 draft picks over the next 4 drafts. They have all sorts of financial flexibility. They have a franchise talent. I am very envious of Cleveland.

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      • #18
        I sure as hell hope that BC is gone.

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        • #19
          Doc Naismith wrote: View Post
          But in all sincerity, who is available at the moment who could jump in to help his franchise? Had this convo on Twitter the other night and its slim pickins out there right now. The best option a little while back which we missed the boat on was Kevin Pritchard. Now he's building another successful franchise in Indiana.

          Who else is there?
          Thats a never ending problem though. The known good ones are always taken. Its a rare bird when a team lets go a quality GM. (Its why passing on Pritchard for Stephanski was a huge missed opportunity for this team - not coincidentally decided by Colangelo).

          We also can't forget, every good and great GM was once an unknown themselves. Buford, Morey, Presti whoever, were once given an opportunity like everyone else.

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          • #20
            I admit, I'm flipping and flopping between the idea of giving him the #No3rdYearOption boat. I really don't know what would be better quite frankly.

            He's already mentioned Bargnani is a trade asset, he's as good as gone in the off-season whether it's with Colangelo or not. My only problem with him, has always been his love for Bargnani. As soon as he's gone via trade, it'll depend on what Toronto receives in return, and how he handles Lowry.
            Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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            • #21
              Matt52 wrote: View Post
              Babcock did not come from a franchise that had any winning culture (Minnesota).
              Pretty sure the fact that Minny did well in the KG era had something to do with it. They had those great teams for many years, including a revolving door of players around KG. Babcock hired before 2004 draft...Minnesota's win totals from 1999 until then....50, 47, 50, 51, 58....yeah, no winning culture there at all.

              As for the other guys, I just meant that they have not actually done a lot to be able to evaluate them positively. A GM can be said to be doing a good job when his team starts having sustained success...anything before that starts happening has to be taken with a grain of salt. It's nice to stockpile picks and flexibility, but it doesn't mean that those will yeild results. Based on results, I can't say any of those 3 GMs have really done anything to suggest they were quality hirings, largely because they haven't had enough time to make that judgment. But I feel like I can say that for Ujiri, who has traded away both Melo and Nene since going to Denver, has drafted well (I think Fournier and Miller are good depth picks for a stacked team, as they both have good potential, and obviously Faried was a great pick), and his team has not lost a step at all*.

              *In fact, I'd say his team has developed a better culture and style of play, while being stacked with good players who are also almost all tradable assets (in terms of not having loads of toxic contracts)

              **Maybe we shouldn't have let Ujiri go so easily...
              Last edited by white men can't jump; Sun Mar 3, 2013, 02:44 PM.

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              • #22
                white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                Pretty sure the fact that Minny did well in the KG era had something to do with it. They had those great teams for many years, including a revolving door of players around KG. Babcock hired before 2004 draft...Minnesota's win totals from 1999 until then....50, 47, 50, 51, 58....yeah, no winning culture there at all.

                As for the other guys, I just meant that they have not actually done a lot to be able to evaluate them positively. A GM can be said to be doing a good job when his team starts having sustained success...anything before that starts happening has to be taken with a grain of salt. It's nice to stockpile picks and flexibility, but it doesn't mean that those will yeild results. Based on results, I can't say any of those 3 GMs have really done anything to suggest they were quality hirings, largely because they haven't had enough time to make that judgment. But I feel like I can say that for Ujiri, who has traded away both Melo and Nene since going to Denver, has drafted well (I think Fournier and Miller are good depth picks for a stacked team, as they both have good potential, and obviously Faried was a great pick), and his team has not lost a step at all*.

                *In fact, I'd say his team has developed a better culture and style of play, while being stacked with good players who are also almost all tradable assets (in terms of not having loads of toxic contracts)
                Definitely forgot how many wins they had and the number of seasons. I stand corrected.

                Still not a fan of how the franchise was run. I don't think anyone would confused McHale for Presti or Buford.

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                • #23
                  Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  Definitely forgot how many wins they had and the number of seasons. I stand corrected.

                  Still not a fan of how the franchise was run. I don't think anyone would confused McHale for Presti or Buford.
                  No worries, I had to double check myself, because KG was there for so many dang years, and a fair amount of them were mediocre. They definitely weren't the best run franchise...but usually there are trends to follow what people perceive as best practice. At that time, a lot of teams were doing the "put a bunch of guys around one franchise talent" plan, including TO around Carter. It was a stupid strategy.

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                  • #24
                    Change the GM. Change the coach. Change the players. Change the broadcasters. Change the culture.

                    Who do they bring in that can build a winner? We aren't sure. That is a common theme throughout these pages.

                    I'm voting for stability and patience. As disappointing as losing can be I still see light at the end of the tunnel.

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                    • #25
                      white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                      Except all those teams were knowingly heading into rebuilding type situations...Even Ujiri who pulled the miraculous Melo trade...was clearly hired because they could afford to give an unknown GM a shot, knowing the first move he'd have to make could have easily led into a rebuilding cycle.

                      It is not great management to start a rebuilding cycle and get a couple of talented pieces in the draft...we'll see how all those teams look in a couple of years. Not saying they'll be bad, but that other than Ujiri, I'm not impressed by anything those other guys have done, and that they really haven't done anything to really test their mettle yet. We'll see if Hennigan can draft/acquire a franchise talent to replace Howard. We'll see if the guys in CLE and NOH put good teams around their young franchise players or if they also go into a mediocrity cycle.

                      Getting an unknown is just that...unknown. That is also how we ended up with Rob Babcock. So I think rolling the dice when the team is set to compete for the playoffs is very risky, and that in such a situation if you have to make a change, you'd probably want someone with some kind of reliable track record.

                      To be honest with all of you, Brian is the best man for the job. He has proven time and time again that he is more than capable of cleaning up his mistakes. He is a known name in the industry, and he has moved pieces lots of people on this site believed he would not be able to move. I say we stick with what we have and what we know. We have the right guy at the helm let him do his job.

                      And for all the people who bang on Colangelo for all the failed efforts to put pieces around Bosh. Bosh was a good player but he wasn't great! Colangelo put pieces around Bosh, Bosh being selfish and wanting to get his numbers didn't utilize some of those pieces well. Bosh was never able to find Capono it was always TJ Ford, Bosh never wanted to play the inside out GAME. That is what great players do like Tim Duncan and make everyone around him better.

                      Let Colangelo do his job, he is the right man for the Job. How do you think Demar got to play with the American select team and got better. Oh senior Colangelo runs USA basketball, makes sense, he has more connections than any other GM in this league. Let the man do what he needs to do, he is the right man for the job so stop trying to run him out of town. For all those people who talk about his drafting and say he is horrible you are retarded. Colangelo has drafted names like, Steve Nash, Amare Stoudamire, Joe Johnson, and another great point guard and current tripple double leader in the NBA Jason Kidd. The man knows what he is doing he is one of the only constants in the NBA, he rocks and we will be fine boys. This is the best man for the job like I said.

                      Stop acting so scary guys, Bargani was the right pick at the time. The problem with Andrea is that he is to slow and methodical. Iliasova is better because he is the same thing as Bargani but quicker. Bargani's skill sets is what we need just in a quicker more physical body. Andrea was the insurance for Bosh, just didn't develop. In the NBA your buying off potential. Andrea's best years were when we had Jermaine O'neal here. JO, shot blocker and physical player. Think about practice, he probably motivated Andrea. He would slap weak ish out. Sometimes potential is not met so that is part of the business. But Colangelo has always talked about assets. Our drafts are finally starting to turn into assets, they weren't before. At least not any that any other GM wanted in the league. I like Ed Davis but with all dew respect Rudy Gay is BETTER than Ed Davis. Ed Davis may be better later, but we had a appreciating asset that someone wanted. We were able to flip that appreciating asset for a piece that is making our team better now. The Carlos Boozer deal would have put us into contention for a little while but the cost was to much. Lets see what this summer holds we are going in the right direction.

                      And we are still building! Picking up pieces when building, that is something you do to make your team better. Colangelo hasn't gone off track with the plan or hasn't stop the building process by picking up/trading a piece so please stop saying that. This is part of building.

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                      • #26
                        @Canmanxl

                        I can't tell exactly why you quoted me...but I agree. If there was teh possibility to replace BC with some kind of known quantity as a GM, it might be worth considering the change. In most cases, unknowns are given a shot when there are low/lowering expectations for a team. BC is a known right now, as is Stefanski as his assistant. That's why I said in another post I expect him to be extended, and we'll keep riding the BC roller-coaster (hopefully a peak coming up instead of this dip continuing).

                        Although I also have to disagree about the team still building. They are in win-now mode, even if it's just in the sense of making the playoffs next year. They likely can't afford to accumulate more young, nba unproven assets. They will likely add experience, and if they add youth, I think it would likely be "proven" youth. Maybe make a run at Bledsoe if they don't see Lowry as the long-term PG (just as a random example, ignoring reality and likelihood...just some crap off the top of my head), who is still "unproven" as a starting PG, but definitely proven as an NBA level talent.

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                        • #27
                          Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
                          Just my opinion but considering he was allowed to acquire Gay, I think he`ll get at-least one more year.
                          That's kinda what I expect..

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                          • #28
                            Matt52 wrote: View Post
                            Babcock did not come from a franchise that had any winning culture (Minnesota).

                            I am surprised of the guys I listed you only have any praise for Ujiri.

                            Demps made the trade for Vasquez, signed Anderson, got Lopez. Rivers seems to be a miss but even that is too early to tell. They have good financial situation with just anywhere from 33-42M committed for next season.

                            Henningan has acquired 3 first round picks over the next 4 drafts. I think he certainly got good value for Dwight all things considered. Getting Tobias Harris was good. Also this is the first year in their rebuild, they have not even had a chance to get a high draft pick yet. For a team just starting a rebuild they are already ahead of the game.

                            Wallace, in my opinion, takes the cake. I questioned the drafting of Waiters and Thompson but while still questionable they are no longer consensus 'bad' picks. They have upwards of 10 draft picks over the next 4 drafts. They have all sorts of financial flexibility. They have a franchise talent. I am very envious of Cleveland.
                            Orlando got fleeced in the Dwight trade. No real cap relief and all their draft picks are likely to be late first rounders. You can't look at Dwight's poor performance this season and then say they got fair value in retrospect. All that matters is what his value was at the time.

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                            • #29
                              pcrombeen wrote: View Post
                              Orlando got fleeced in the Dwight trade. No real cap relief and all their draft picks are likely to be late first rounders. You can't look at Dwight's poor performance this season and then say they got fair value in retrospect. All that matters is what his value was at the time.
                              Orlando were handcuffed by a prima donna. Big difference than being fleeced. No one was giving up assets for a guy who could walk and taking on a max contract for an injury prone C (Lopez or Bynum) was pretty stupid too... as well as Humphries.

                              Given their circumstances, 3 first round picks, 2 second round picks, Harkless, Vucevic, and Afflalo was a pretty good haul. McRoberts and Harrington are irrelevant.

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                              • #30
                                pcrombeen wrote: View Post
                                Orlando got fleeced in the Dwight trade. No real cap relief and all their draft picks are likely to be late first rounders. You can't look at Dwight's poor performance this season and then say they got fair value in retrospect. All that matters is what his value was at the time.
                                Exactly, all that count was his value at the time. I don't think there was a much better deal out there, which you seem to imply (Brook Lopez max contract anyone?) and they got some young talented players plus some picks.

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