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  • #76
    So magoon,,,, you've listed a bunch of teams that you feel the Raps could target, to unload assets and ensure a tank. Since you're so sold on the Raps following this course of cheating the game, the players, the coaches, the fans in the seats,,,, what suggestions do you have with these teams, of who the Raps should trade, and for what? Rather than generalized pie-in-the-skying, it would be interesting to discuss real scenarios that you would recommend.

    Comment


    • #77
      p00ka wrote: View Post
      So magoon,,,, you've listed a bunch of teams that you feel the Raps could target, to unload assets and ensure a tank. Since you're so sold on the Raps following this course of cheating the game, the players, the coaches, the fans in the seats,,,, what suggestions do you have with these teams, of who the Raps should trade, and for what? Rather than generalized pie-in-the-skying, it would be interesting to discuss real scenarios that you would recommend.
      Disregarding the moralizing about tanking this year (which is bullshit: I'd much rather watch a team of exciting young players developing for a proper run than our current Frankenstein of a non-playoff team), I would rank these as the best potential trades we can make:

      1. Rudy Gay to Cleveland. Cleveland has the clearest need of a quality SF right now: unlike all their other positions, their SF rotation right now is relatively weak. Sergey Karasev might end up being really solid, but he's a rookie; Alonzo Gee is your prototypical NBA space-filler. We package Rudy along with Marcus Camby (a quality backup defensive center, which is a minor need for the Cavs right now) and the rights to Tomislav Zubcic, and take back Gee, one of Tristan Thompson or Anthony Bennett (probably Thompson), and picks: Cleveland's own 2014 first-rounder has to be one of them, and then either some second-rounders or maybe that protected Sacramento first-round pick that probably won't ever pan out for Cleveland anyway (since it's top-10 protected until 2017 and, well, Sacramento).

      Cleveland does this because it nails down the weakest element in their rotation (plus shores them up at center) and turns them from a 7-8 seed contender into maybe a 5-6 contender, an Eastern equivalent of Golden State in many ways. All they give up is depth at one of their stronger positions. We do this because we get good-but-not-great picks (which in 2014 should be better than average), a Canadian-born power forward with a lot of upside (whether it is Thompson or Bennett, either way) which will excite fans when we're having a developmental season, and Alonzo Gee's expiring contract.

      Alternately:

      1a. Rudy Gay to Charlotte. Charlotte is going to make a bit of a run and they need talent to do it. They're reasonably well-stocked for bigs (Al Jefferson, Josh McRoberts, Bismack Biyombo), shooting guards (Gerald Henderson) and point guards (Kemba Walker and Ramon Sessions), but they need a small forward - Michael Kidd-Gilchrist may well become a great player, he's got all the tools to become a great player, but he sure as hell isn't there yet. Trading MKG for Rudy, from Charlotte's perspective, is skipping five years of development to get the end product right away. This trade works out much in the same way that the Cleveland trade does: we send them Rudy, Steve Novak (instantly providing Charlotte with a SF platoon) and the rights to Zubcic (to sweeten it a bit), we take away MKG and Ben Gordon (who hates playing for Charlotte, so removing him is actually doing Charlotte a favour, even though he is an expiring contract) and we want 2014 picks. Charlotte has three: their own, Detroit's (protected 1-8) and Portland's (protected 1-12). We want Charlotte's own pick and one of the other two - probably the Portland pick, since it's the more likely to fall into protection and therefore less problematic for Charlotte to trade because with the Detroit pick Charlotte still gets a first-rounder in 2014.

      For us, we've turned 22m of salary into 15m, 12 of which goes away next year, and now we have the opportunity to have Terrence Ross and MKG battle it out at shooting guard to see who our starting SG of the future is, maybe run some dual-SG smallball lineups - and we can trade whichever one we don't need later in the season if we like.

      2. DeMar DeRozan to Dallas. Dallas needs players, period. They have their PG rotation locked up (Jose and Gal Mekel, plus Shane Larkin as a third), they've got Dirk at PF, they're probably going to sign Bynum at center, they've got Shawn Marion at SF and Vince as a sixth man, but they don't have a starting SG (Ricky Ledo is a promising rookie but he's not starter-ready) and all of the quality free agent SGs have already signed with other teams. DeMar can fill that role. Jose knows how to work with him already (and they work well together), and DeMar becomes a solid second scoring option behind Dirk.

      This is a simple, straightforward purchase. We send DeMar for Dallas' 2014 first-rounder and one of either Jae Crowder or Ricky Ledo if we can manage to get them as well (probably we can't, but it's worth trying). The pick should be a middle-first-rounder: Dallas either sneaks into the bottom of the Western Conference playoffs, or they get stuck at the bottom of the lottery like this past year. Either way it's just the sort of pick Dallas hates having and always ends up trading until they're forced to draft: see this year, where they traded the #13 to Boston for the #16 and then traded THAT to Atlanta for the #18 and then drafted Shane Larkin because nobody was interested in the #18 in time for them to avoid drafting.

      This trade works because we trade DeMar, who has great spirit and team ethic but simply doesn't justify his salary based on his level of play, to a team that spends money like nuts, with someone who knows how he plays and can make best use of him. We have Ross as an SG starting option already and he needs burn. If we get Jae Crowder, we get a decent young swing 3/4 who's like Quincy Acy except he's basically better at everything Acy does. If we get Ledo, we have another "fight for starting SG battle" season as in the Charlotte trade.

      3. Kyle Lowry to Detroit. Detroit doesn't have a good pure point guard; Brandon Knight is a combo guard. Detroit also doesn't have anybody who can truly provide floor spacing for their impressive bigs: KCP is unproven and he's their best hope. Lowry helps address both of these problems.

      (It should be noted that at this point Lowry is easily the hardest player of the three tradeable assets we have to trade; most of the teams seriously aiming for the playoffs have point guards locked up already, and Lowry has a bit of a primadonna reputation now.)

      Send Lowry and Steve Novak to Detroit; get back Charlie Villaneuva, Rodney Stuckey and KCP. Detroit now has two proven shooters, rather than one unproven one. We get more expiring salary and a promising rookie who, again, can battle Ross for starting SG and again we can flip one if need be.

      If we execute all three of these trades (sending Rudy to Cleveland), we would have a rotation of

      PG: Stuckey/Stone/somebody else (Kabongo?)
      SG: Ross/KCP
      SF: Fields/Acy/Gee
      PF: Thompson/Amir/Crowder
      C: Jonas/Gray/Villaneuva

      Fill it out with some veterans, and that's a solid developmental team that won't make playoffs but will get better over a season. And also, we have:

      1. Salary commitments of only $27 million at the end of 2013, so plenty of room to chase free agents
      2. Our first-round draft pick in 2014 (should end up being top 8), plus the first-rounders of Cleveland and Dallas (should both be 13-17), plus maybe the Sacramento pick if Sacramento makes a serious run

      Comment


      • #78
        magoon wrote: View Post
        Disregarding the moralizing about tanking this year (which is bullshit: I'd much rather watch a team of exciting young players developing for a proper run than our current Frankenstein of a non-playoff team), I would rank these as the best potential trades we can make:

        1. Rudy Gay to Cleveland. Cleveland has the clearest need of a quality SF right now: unlike all their other positions, their SF rotation right now is relatively weak. Sergey Karasev might end up being really solid, but he's a rookie; Alonzo Gee is your prototypical NBA space-filler. We package Rudy along with Marcus Camby (a quality backup defensive center, which is a minor need for the Cavs right now) and the rights to Tomislav Zubcic, and take back Gee, one of Tristan Thompson or Anthony Bennett (probably Thompson), and picks: Cleveland's own 2014 first-rounder has to be one of them, and then either some second-rounders or maybe that protected Sacramento first-round pick that probably won't ever pan out for Cleveland anyway (since it's top-10 protected until 2017 and, well, Sacramento).

        Cleveland does this because it nails down the weakest element in their rotation (plus shores them up at center) and turns them from a 7-8 seed contender into maybe a 5-6 contender, an Eastern equivalent of Golden State in many ways. All they give up is depth at one of their stronger positions. We do this because we get good-but-not-great picks (which in 2014 should be better than average), a Canadian-born power forward with a lot of upside (whether it is Thompson or Bennett, either way) which will excite fans when we're having a developmental season, and Alonzo Gee's expiring contract.

        Alternately:

        1a. Rudy Gay to Charlotte. Charlotte is going to make a bit of a run and they need talent to do it. They're reasonably well-stocked for bigs (Al Jefferson, Josh McRoberts, Bismack Biyombo), shooting guards (Gerald Henderson) and point guards (Kemba Walker and Ramon Sessions), but they need a small forward - Michael Kidd-Gilchrist may well become a great player, he's got all the tools to become a great player, but he sure as hell isn't there yet. Trading MKG for Rudy, from Charlotte's perspective, is skipping five years of development to get the end product right away. This trade works out much in the same way that the Cleveland trade does: we send them Rudy, Steve Novak (instantly providing Charlotte with a SF platoon) and the rights to Zubcic (to sweeten it a bit), we take away MKG and Ben Gordon (who hates playing for Charlotte, so removing him is actually doing Charlotte a favour, even though he is an expiring contract) and we want 2014 picks. Charlotte has three: their own, Detroit's (protected 1-8) and Portland's (protected 1-12). We want Charlotte's own pick and one of the other two - probably the Portland pick, since it's the more likely to fall into protection and therefore less problematic for Charlotte to trade because with the Detroit pick Charlotte still gets a first-rounder in 2014.

        For us, we've turned 22m of salary into 15m, 12 of which goes away next year, and now we have the opportunity to have Terrence Ross and MKG battle it out at shooting guard to see who our starting SG of the future is, maybe run some dual-SG smallball lineups - and we can trade whichever one we don't need later in the season if we like.

        2. DeMar DeRozan to Dallas. Dallas needs players, period. They have their PG rotation locked up (Jose and Gal Mekel, plus Shane Larkin as a third), they've got Dirk at PF, they're probably going to sign Bynum at center, they've got Shawn Marion at SF and Vince as a sixth man, but they don't have a starting SG (Ricky Ledo is a promising rookie but he's not starter-ready) and all of the quality free agent SGs have already signed with other teams. DeMar can fill that role. Jose knows how to work with him already (and they work well together), and DeMar becomes a solid second scoring option behind Dirk.

        This is a simple, straightforward purchase. We send DeMar for Dallas' 2014 first-rounder and one of either Jae Crowder or Ricky Ledo if we can manage to get them as well (probably we can't, but it's worth trying). The pick should be a middle-first-rounder: Dallas either sneaks into the bottom of the Western Conference playoffs, or they get stuck at the bottom of the lottery like this past year. Either way it's just the sort of pick Dallas hates having and always ends up trading until they're forced to draft: see this year, where they traded the #13 to Boston for the #16 and then traded THAT to Atlanta for the #18 and then drafted Shane Larkin because nobody was interested in the #18 in time for them to avoid drafting.

        This trade works because we trade DeMar, who has great spirit and team ethic but simply doesn't justify his salary based on his level of play, to a team that spends money like nuts, with someone who knows how he plays and can make best use of him. We have Ross as an SG starting option already and he needs burn. If we get Jae Crowder, we get a decent young swing 3/4 who's like Quincy Acy except he's basically better at everything Acy does. If we get Ledo, we have another "fight for starting SG battle" season as in the Charlotte trade.

        3. Kyle Lowry to Detroit. Detroit doesn't have a good pure point guard; Brandon Knight is a combo guard. Detroit also doesn't have anybody who can truly provide floor spacing for their impressive bigs: KCP is unproven and he's their best hope. Lowry helps address both of these problems.

        (It should be noted that at this point Lowry is easily the hardest player of the three tradeable assets we have to trade; most of the teams seriously aiming for the playoffs have point guards locked up already, and Lowry has a bit of a primadonna reputation now.)

        Send Lowry and Steve Novak to Detroit; get back Charlie Villaneuva, Rodney Stuckey and KCP. Detroit now has two proven shooters, rather than one unproven one. We get more expiring salary and a promising rookie who, again, can battle Ross for starting SG and again we can flip one if need be.

        If we execute all three of these trades (sending Rudy to Cleveland), we would have a rotation of

        PG: Stuckey/Stone/somebody else (Kabongo?)
        SG: Ross/KCP
        SF: Fields/Acy/Gee
        PF: Thompson/Amir/Crowder
        C: Jonas/Gray/Villaneuva

        Fill it out with some veterans, and that's a solid developmental team that won't make playoffs but will get better over a season. And also, we have:

        1. Salary commitments of only $27 million at the end of 2013, so plenty of room to chase free agents
        2. Our first-round draft pick in 2014 (should end up being top 8), plus the first-rounders of Cleveland and Dallas (should both be 13-17), plus maybe the Sacramento pick if Sacramento makes a serious run
        Imagine if all this craziness happened then we drafted Wiggins. Life would be good..

        Comment


        • #79
          magoon wrote: View Post
          Disregarding the moralizing about tanking this year (which is bullshit: I'd much rather watch a team of exciting young players developing for a proper run than our current Frankenstein of a non-playoff team), I would rank these as the best potential trades we can make:

          1. Rudy Gay to Cleveland. Cleveland has the clearest need of a quality SF right now: unlike all their other positions, their SF rotation right now is relatively weak. Sergey Karasev might end up being really solid, but he's a rookie; Alonzo Gee is your prototypical NBA space-filler. We package Rudy along with Marcus Camby (a quality backup defensive center, which is a minor need for the Cavs right now) and the rights to Tomislav Zubcic, and take back Gee, one of Tristan Thompson or Anthony Bennett (probably Thompson), and picks: Cleveland's own 2014 first-rounder has to be one of them, and then either some second-rounders or maybe that protected Sacramento first-round pick that probably won't ever pan out for Cleveland anyway (since it's top-10 protected until 2017 and, well, Sacramento).

          Cleveland does this because it nails down the weakest element in their rotation (plus shores them up at center) and turns them from a 7-8 seed contender into maybe a 5-6 contender, an Eastern equivalent of Golden State in many ways. All they give up is depth at one of their stronger positions. We do this because we get good-but-not-great picks (which in 2014 should be better than average), a Canadian-born power forward with a lot of upside (whether it is Thompson or Bennett, either way) which will excite fans when we're having a developmental season, and Alonzo Gee's expiring contract.

          Alternately:

          1a. Rudy Gay to Charlotte. Charlotte is going to make a bit of a run and they need talent to do it. They're reasonably well-stocked for bigs (Al Jefferson, Josh McRoberts, Bismack Biyombo), shooting guards (Gerald Henderson) and point guards (Kemba Walker and Ramon Sessions), but they need a small forward - Michael Kidd-Gilchrist may well become a great player, he's got all the tools to become a great player, but he sure as hell isn't there yet. Trading MKG for Rudy, from Charlotte's perspective, is skipping five years of development to get the end product right away. This trade works out much in the same way that the Cleveland trade does: we send them Rudy, Steve Novak (instantly providing Charlotte with a SF platoon) and the rights to Zubcic (to sweeten it a bit), we take away MKG and Ben Gordon (who hates playing for Charlotte, so removing him is actually doing Charlotte a favour, even though he is an expiring contract) and we want 2014 picks. Charlotte has three: their own, Detroit's (protected 1-8) and Portland's (protected 1-12). We want Charlotte's own pick and one of the other two - probably the Portland pick, since it's the more likely to fall into protection and therefore less problematic for Charlotte to trade because with the Detroit pick Charlotte still gets a first-rounder in 2014.

          For us, we've turned 22m of salary into 15m, 12 of which goes away next year, and now we have the opportunity to have Terrence Ross and MKG battle it out at shooting guard to see who our starting SG of the future is, maybe run some dual-SG smallball lineups - and we can trade whichever one we don't need later in the season if we like.

          2. DeMar DeRozan to Dallas. Dallas needs players, period. They have their PG rotation locked up (Jose and Gal Mekel, plus Shane Larkin as a third), they've got Dirk at PF, they're probably going to sign Bynum at center, they've got Shawn Marion at SF and Vince as a sixth man, but they don't have a starting SG (Ricky Ledo is a promising rookie but he's not starter-ready) and all of the quality free agent SGs have already signed with other teams. DeMar can fill that role. Jose knows how to work with him already (and they work well together), and DeMar becomes a solid second scoring option behind Dirk.

          This is a simple, straightforward purchase. We send DeMar for Dallas' 2014 first-rounder and one of either Jae Crowder or Ricky Ledo if we can manage to get them as well (probably we can't, but it's worth trying). The pick should be a middle-first-rounder: Dallas either sneaks into the bottom of the Western Conference playoffs, or they get stuck at the bottom of the lottery like this past year. Either way it's just the sort of pick Dallas hates having and always ends up trading until they're forced to draft: see this year, where they traded the #13 to Boston for the #16 and then traded THAT to Atlanta for the #18 and then drafted Shane Larkin because nobody was interested in the #18 in time for them to avoid drafting.

          This trade works because we trade DeMar, who has great spirit and team ethic but simply doesn't justify his salary based on his level of play, to a team that spends money like nuts, with someone who knows how he plays and can make best use of him. We have Ross as an SG starting option already and he needs burn. If we get Jae Crowder, we get a decent young swing 3/4 who's like Quincy Acy except he's basically better at everything Acy does. If we get Ledo, we have another "fight for starting SG battle" season as in the Charlotte trade.

          3. Kyle Lowry to Detroit. Detroit doesn't have a good pure point guard; Brandon Knight is a combo guard. Detroit also doesn't have anybody who can truly provide floor spacing for their impressive bigs: KCP is unproven and he's their best hope. Lowry helps address both of these problems.

          (It should be noted that at this point Lowry is easily the hardest player of the three tradeable assets we have to trade; most of the teams seriously aiming for the playoffs have point guards locked up already, and Lowry has a bit of a primadonna reputation now.)

          Send Lowry and Steve Novak to Detroit; get back Charlie Villaneuva, Rodney Stuckey and KCP. Detroit now has two proven shooters, rather than one unproven one. We get more expiring salary and a promising rookie who, again, can battle Ross for starting SG and again we can flip one if need be.

          If we execute all three of these trades (sending Rudy to Cleveland), we would have a rotation of

          PG: Stuckey/Stone/somebody else (Kabongo?)
          SG: Ross/KCP
          SF: Fields/Acy/Gee
          PF: Thompson/Amir/Crowder
          C: Jonas/Gray/Villaneuva

          Fill it out with some veterans, and that's a solid developmental team that won't make playoffs but will get better over a season. And also, we have:

          1. Salary commitments of only $27 million at the end of 2013, so plenty of room to chase free agents
          2. Our first-round draft pick in 2014 (should end up being top 8), plus the first-rounders of Cleveland and Dallas (should both be 13-17), plus maybe the Sacramento pick if Sacramento makes a serious run
          Well, that's quite a plan you have there. The effort is appreciated, but one can hope you're able to come down to reality. We'll see.

          It's your choice to disregard what you call moralizing, but just to make clear: I can guarantee that the Raptors organization feels the need to honour the competiveness of the players and coaches, and the money of the fans in the seats, long before they worry about what you, and a bunch of internet kids, would "much rather watch". And if you're not happy about that, or can't live with it, I'd suggest you might serve your needs better by finding another team, or hobby. When i speak of such considerations, I'm speaking to real world issues that NBA management teams and owners have to address.

          Now, you might think these "trades" are the best potential for the Raptors, but I might rank all but the Lowry one among the least possible, which is not difficult to explain.

          First I have to address "Cleveland has the clearest need of a quality SF right now". "Clearest need" out of who? 1/2 the league is in need of a quality SF right now, and way more than 1/2 the league for one capable of reasonable defense of the likes of Lebron, KD, and Paul George. You know, pro-tank people keep shouting about wanting to compete for championships. Newsflash: If you're going to compete, you need to get through those guys and Rudy is one of the few with the size, length and athleticism to deal with these guys, and even make them work on D. Do you forget how long we've been without a quality SF? Quality wings are at a premium these days, and combined with our history since VC, it's why wings were targetted in recent drafts. First DD, then Ross, a couple of developing kids, top 9 draft picks we already have. It's a bummer we lost the coin flip and lost Barnes, but at the beginning of last year, SF was our glaring need still, like many other teams. Just saying. MANY teams need a quality SF, and we've needed one for a long time. We have one now, but you want to trade him away
          before we have a chance to see what he can do on this team,,,,,,,,, for futures (a.k.a. future fantasies of a gaggle of high school kids being NBA superstars). Personally, I disagree that this is even remotely wise, but thanks for responding with your suggestions. Let's have a look at them.

          "1. Rudy Gay to Cleveland............."

          First off, both Bennett and the Cavs have spoken of utilizing Bennett at SF (he's rather short for PF, which is part of why everybody was surprised that he was picked #1). They just further added to that position by signing 25 year old Earl Clark
          for 2 years. They're actually now looking deep at the position. Doesn't look to me that they have the least sights on Rudy, but you think they'd want to take Rudy, for possibly only 1 year (do you actually think they think they're going to challenge Miami, even Chicago, Indy, Brooklyn this year??) of Rudy and give us one of 2 current very high draft picks, that they thought so highly of that that took both way out of their expected turn, plus their 1st pick in the highly touted 2014 draft, plus more draft picks, possibly another 1st in 2014???? Ya gotta be kidding!!!! And on what basis do you say the Cavs are currently a 7-8 seed (hahahahahahaha) and would give up all those 1st rounders for possibly 1 year of Rudy and a 5-6 seed (hahahaha)??? Their draft pick is going to be higher than that, and they damn well know it too. Just what fantasy and/or video games have you been killing it in, and how dumb are your opponents? You're being very unreralistic, lad. You provided some elaborate "reasoning", and I use that word lightly here, but to borrow your phrase, it's bullshit, fantasy games bullshit. Hey, keep up the vivid imagination, but don't take it too seriously. The NBA is operating in a real world of professionals running big business NBA teams, not fantasy games.

          "1a. Rudy Gay to Charlotte............."

          Here we go again. Charlotte going on a bit of a run"????? What the hell are you talking about? A new head coach, who has yet to work with this really bad team, and the addition of Al Jefferson and you think a 21 win team is going to go on a run???? WTF??? Sorry, but hahahahahaha. Yeah, they need talent all right. A lot more than an SF to replace the #2 pick they made last year, who probably has the most upside on their entire team right now. But you think they're so hyped about the "run" they can make that they're going to trade their #2 pick sophomore, plus 2 1st round picks in 2014. *shaking my head*. More fantasy bullshit not even bordering on a semblance of reality.

          At this point, I'd say both your reasoning, as well as your fantasy hopes of returns for Rudy, are so far out to lunch, it's mind boggling.

          "2. DeMar DeRozan to Dallas.............."

          So you think Demar is a quality SG that would interest Dallas to be "a solid second scoring option", but feel that we don't have room for such a solid scoring option that is only 23, "who has great spirit and team ethic", because you feel his 2013/14 play, that you don't know about, doesn't justify his salary. Wake me up from this nightmare of yours when you start to make some sense, to say nothing of your assessment of Ross. I'm optimistic of what Ross can turn into, but what basis do you have to say he is a "starting option already"??? Nothing that happened last season lends the least bit of credence to that, so do tell how you say this is a factor in your desire to move DeMar for a not so great draft pick. A silly (downright stupid actually) proposition for the Raps to begin with, but why would currently low spending Dallas commit to overspending (according to you, but not reality) on DeMar for a 4 year committment, which could hamper their direction to signing big FAs??? Note: you seem to have a distorted view of "big spending" Dallas. In case you haven't noticed, they've been trying hard to go the low spending route over the past couple of years, so they have the cap room to sign big name FAs. They've trimmed themselves so much
          that prior to some recent low cost signings, the only player they had on the books for 2014/15 was Dirk. They're still going low cost as in Harris (their SG) for $3M/yr, Mekel at minimum, and even Jose at $7M/yr, which is low for a starting PG.

          I'm not even going to get into your expert opinion of Dallas's approach to draft picks, because at this point, none of your logic/reasoning makes sense for either Dallas or the Raps, so fail on DeMar too.

          "3. Kyle Lowry to Detroit.............."

          So you want to send out our only proven PG, and one of the best value contracts in the league, for much higher priced garbage and an unproven 8th pick in a very weak draft, to compete with our 8th pick in a stronger draft, that hasn't proven a damn thing either. Mind boggling stupidity, despite being the only one of your trades that seems even remotely possible.

          At the end of the day, what you call a solid development team is mind boggling, but here's another thing: if you go with your alternative option for Gay (which I also see as pie-in-the-sky unreality), according to your moves, we have Fields for our SF, and Ross/MKG/KCP fighting it out for SG, and another undersized SG (Stuckey) playing PG. What the hell opportunity for develop (with nothing but garbage and unproven kids around him) do you think JV sees in this set up???? The kid can't develop surrounded by garbage!!! What, you're going to promise him that the high school kids you have your eye on will be available when you draft, and ready for NBA super-stardom in 4-5 years? I'd bet you'd have one very pissed 21 year on your hands, wanting out of this stupidity ASAP.

          I thank you again for giving these examples for a "plan". It demonstrates just how out of touch with reality some of you tank-and-pray proponents are.

          PS. As a final note:
          If someone had said mid way through this past season, that in a few months, BC would be gone, AB would be gone, and we'd have a quality SF on board for the first time since VC, who wouldn't have been ecstatic? Yet it has all happened, and you tank-and-pray kids can't enjoy it for long enough to give the new GM a chance to take a breath and start working on a plan based on reality. Fucking mind boggling. Whiney, self-entitled children, sheeeesh.
          Last edited by p00ka; Sun Jul 7, 2013, 04:35 PM.

          Comment


          • #80
            Whatever happened to people discussing ideas without being total assholes?

            There are lots of places to post ideas littered with insults.

            Too bad this is turning into one of those places.

            Comment


            • #81
              Matt52 wrote: View Post
              Whatever happened to people discussing ideas without being total assholes?

              There are lots of places to post ideas littered with insults.

              Too bad this is turning into one of those places.
              Please tell me what warrants calling me an asshole? Pointing out how out of touch a "plan" is?

              Too bad some such comment wasn't provided for the anger filled, condescending, swearing that came from the mouth that I'm responding to. Double standard, depending on who supports your opinions?
              Last edited by p00ka; Sun Jul 7, 2013, 05:55 PM.

              Comment


              • #82
                i also find it kind of funny that some people make fun of the whole "gaggle of little high school kids in the draft" as if considering them as potential good players is silly and inconceivable. where do you think nba players even come from???

                Comment


                • #83
                  iblastoff wrote: View Post
                  i also find it kind of funny that some people make fun of the whole "gaggle of little high school kids in the draft" as if considering them as potential good players is silly and inconceivable. where do you think nba players even come from???
                  I understand where most players come from, but you miss the point, or choose to. It has nothing to do with not recognizing that high school kids become NBA stars. Tanknation justify dismantling the most promising team we've had for some time, littered already with lottery draft picks, because of the hype that not 1, not 2, but 5-8 NBA superstars, currently without a day of even college ball under their belt, are available for next year's lottery.

                  fact: every year since the NBA began, high school stars take a dive when they get to college
                  fact: every year since the NBA began, college stars take a dive when they get to the NBA
                  fact: every year since the NBA began, star NBA rookies don't live up to their promise in subsequent years.

                  Selling the farm over the hype of a bunch of high school kids is incredibly naive and short-sighted.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    p00ka wrote: View Post
                    I understand where most players come from, but you miss the point, or choose to. It has nothing to do with not recognizing that high school kids become NBA stars. Tanknation justify dismantling the most promising team we've had for some time, littered already with lottery draft picks, because of the hype that not 1, not 2, but 5-8 NBA superstars, currently without a day of even college ball under their belt, are available for next year's lottery.
                    This is wrong - and also illustrates the primary disagreement between us.

                    Tanknation isn't advocating a rebuild because this draft is particularly great - that is certainly a bonus, don't get me wrong, but that's not the reason. Tanknation advocates for a rebuild because we fundamentally disagree with you: this is not a particularly good team. It is a mediocre one, filled out by players who for the most part are not top-10-NBA at their respective positions (Rudy is the exception as a low-end-of-top-10-small forward; Jonas may well get there but isn't there yet) that will stick around in the middle of the pack, occasionally getting an eighth seed in the playoffs at best. That's our ceiling with this team.

                    Calling it "the most promising team we've had for some time" is certainly true, but that's a low bar to pass because we've had such awful teams for so long. It's still not a very good team. It's just better than what we had, and our only routes for improvement are incremental ones: hoping that players get significantly better (for everybody except Jonas and T-Ross, this is extremely unlikely) and maybe grabbing a role-player or two through the MLE because that's all we can afford to do. They will most likely not make us into a serious contender; instead, we will be the Canadian equivalent of the Atlanta Hawks or the Milwaukee Bucks.

                    I really can't stress enough that most analysts, experts and professionals don't think this is a playoff-lock team; anybody who thinks we make playoffs thinks we make it in, barely, as the 8th seed. Nobody thinks its a championship team. Tim Leiweke certainly doesn't, he's said so practically from the beginning - and he wasn't just complaining about Bargnani and Linas Kleiza either. So how do we turn it into a championship team? Wait around for a couple years of mediocrity, hope Jonas gets better, hope we can resign Rudy to a more reasonable contract?

                    One of your criticisms of rebuilding is that draft picks are not guaranteed. That's certainly true. But nothing is guaranteed. You have such a high opinion of Rudy; well, what if Rudy bails in 2015 because he wants a big payday we can't afford to give him, because he isn't enough to get us into serious contention and we need more pieces? Or because he's 29 then and wants to play for a "real contender" - which we will not be in 2014 or 2015? Then we're right back where we started: a bunch of average players and Jonas, who not coincidentally played about as well without Rudy as they did with him so long as Bargs wasn't stinking up the joint.

                    If you want to believe this team is a playoff team, then go talk to Colangelo, who advocated exactly the same thing, right down to the point of publicly declaring he would trade Bargnani. BC was quite clear that he believed that this team, as built, was a playoff contender that just needed a little fine-tuning at most. They fired him for a reason: because he was wrong about this team's prospects and about its talent.

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                    • #85
                      p00ka wrote: View Post
                      Please tell me what warrants calling me an asshole? Pointing out how out of touch a "plan" is?

                      Too bad some such comment wasn't provided for the anger filled, condescending, swearing that came from the mouth that I'm responding to. Double standard, depending on who supports your opinions?

                      Yes, the anger filled, conscending (?), swearing that came from me was to another poster who was also being an asshole (in my opinion, of course). I also provided examples to highlight my issue and did not hear one rebuttal. In fact we apologized and that was the end of it.

                      There are more than you and the other person - and myself - around here of late. But since you asked what warrants being called an asshole, here goes:


                      You asked magoon to give you trades... he did in a courteous manner. You then proceed to attempt to totally discredit and belittle his ideas, examples:

                      It's your choice to disregard what you call moralizing, but just to make clear: I can guarantee that the Raptors organization feels the need to honour the competiveness of the players and coaches, and the money of the fans in the seats, long before they worry about what you, and a bunch of internet kids, would "much rather watch". And if you're not happy about that, or can't live with it, I'd suggest you might serve your needs better by finding another team, or hobby.
                      .....Ya gotta be kidding!!!! And on what basis do you say the Cavs are currently a 7-8 seed (hahahahahahaha) and would give up all those 1st rounders for possibly 1 year of Rudy and a 5-6 seed (hahahaha)??? Their draft pick is going to be higher than that, and they damn well know it too. Just what fantasy and/or video games have you been killing it in, and how dumb are your opponents? You're being very unreralistic, lad. You provided some elaborate "reasoning", and I use that word lightly here, but to borrow your phrase, it's bullshit, fantasy games bullshit. Hey, keep up the vivid imagination, but don't take it too seriously. The NBA is operating in a real world of professionals running big business NBA teams, not fantasy games.
                      Here we go again. Charlotte going on a bit of a run"????? What the hell are you talking about? A new head coach, who has yet to work with this really bad team, and the addition of Al Jefferson and you think a 21 win team is going to go on a run???? WTF??? Sorry, but hahahahahaha. Yeah, they need talent all right. A lot more than an SF to replace the #2 pick they made last year, who probably has the most upside on their entire team right now. But you think they're so hyped about the "run" they can make that they're going to trade their #2 pick sophomore, plus 2 1st round picks in 2014. *shaking my head*. More fantasy bullshit not even bordering on a semblance of reality.

                      At this point, I'd say both your reasoning, as well as your fantasy hopes of returns for Rudy, are so far out to lunch, it's mind boggling.
                      So you think Demar is a quality SG that would interest Dallas to be "a solid second scoring option", but feel that we don't have room for such a solid scoring option that is only 23, "who has great spirit and team ethic", because you feel his 2013/14 play, that you don't know about, doesn't justify his salary. Wake me up from this nightmare of yours when you start to make some sense, to say nothing of your assessment of Ross. I'm optimistic of what Ross can turn into, but what basis do you have to say he is a "starting option already"??? Nothing that happened last season lends the least bit of credence to that, so do tell how you say this is a factor in your desire to move DeMar for a not so great draft pick. A silly (downright stupid actually) proposition for the Raps to begin with, but why would currently low spending Dallas commit to overspending (according to you, but not reality) on DeMar for a 4 year committment, which could hamper their direction to signing big FAs??? Note: you seem to have a distorted view of "big spending" Dallas. In case you haven't noticed, they've been trying hard to go the low spending route over the past couple of years, so they have the cap room to sign big name FAs. They've trimmed themselves so much
                      that prior to some recent low cost signings, the only player they had on the books for 2014/15 was Dirk. They're still going low cost as in Harris (their SG) for $3M/yr, Mekel at minimum, and even Jose at $7M/yr, which is low for a starting PG.

                      I'm not even going to get into your expert opinion of Dallas's approach to draft picks, because at this point, none of your logic/reasoning makes sense for either Dallas or the Raps, so fail on DeMar too.
                      So you want to send out our only proven PG, and one of the best value contracts in the league, for much higher priced garbage and an unproven 8th pick in a very weak draft, to compete with our 8th pick in a stronger draft, that hasn't proven a damn thing either. Mind boggling stupidity, despite being the only one of your trades that seems even remotely possible.

                      At the end of the day, what you call a solid development team is mind boggling, but here's another thing: if you go with your alternative option for Gay (which I also see as pie-in-the-sky unreality), according to your moves, we have Fields for our SF, and Ross/MKG/KCP fighting it out for SG, and another undersized SG (Stuckey) playing PG. What the hell opportunity for develop (with nothing but garbage and unproven kids around him) do you think JV sees in this set up???? The kid can't develop surrounded by garbage!!! What, you're going to promise him that the high school kids you have your eye on will be available when you draft, and ready for NBA super-stardom in 4-5 years? I'd bet you'd have one very pissed 21 year on your hands, wanting out of this stupidity ASAP.
                      PS. As a final note:
                      If someone had said mid way through this past season, that in a few months, BC would be gone, AB would be gone, and we'd have a quality SF on board for the first time since VC, who wouldn't have been ecstatic? Yet it has all happened, and you tank-and-pray kids can't enjoy it for long enough to give the new GM a chance to take a breath and start working on a plan based on reality. Fucking mind boggling. Whiney, self-entitled children, sheeeesh.


                      There is no double standard based on who supports my opinion. Your post actually makes a lot of sense. I flip flop almost daily on which route I'd like to see the Raptors take. The issue is you asked for magoon to give you something and he did. You then belittled him in just about every single way imaginable based solely on the idea that you don't think he opinions are realistic or valid. In my opinion, that is an asshole. There was nothing malicious or insulting in magoon's post towards you yet your reply was laced with insults.

                      I was mocked and ridiculed for saying the Raptors should/would get Gay and in the end they got him for much less than I ever imagined. That is not to boast because I also said they should get Nash/Bargnani was a building block and much of the premise was based on exactly your ideas above. I'm wrong more often than right but I don't really care. I'm more interested in conversation as we go along the journey.

                      You didn't show him how out of touch of reality his "plan" is. You showed him you aren't worth taking the time to converse with because you're likely to get a response back that is belittling and condescending. You make excellent points in your reply but you destroy any value with the bold sections. You weren't challenging the plan, you are challenging/insulting the person giving the plan with many of your comments. Essentially your personalized your argument.

                      No one on these forums knows what value any of the players can return. We all guess and hypothesize mixing in our own values but in the end nothing. Who'd of guessed Bargnani would return 3 draft picks? Not me. I'm sure some did and more power to them but they would be the extreme minority, I think.


                      Anyways, I will offer you an apology for acting like a moderator when I am not one. I should either deal with it or stop visiting. I do sincerely apologize for over stepping my bounds but at the same time I mean every single word.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        p00ka wrote: View Post
                        I understand where most players come from, but you miss the point, or choose to. It has nothing to do with not recognizing that high school kids become NBA stars. Tanknation justify dismantling the most promising team we've had for some time, littered already with lottery draft picks, because of the hype that not 1, not 2, but 5-8 NBA superstars, currently without a day of even college ball under their belt, are available for next year's lottery.

                        fact: every year since the NBA began, high school stars take a dive when they get to college
                        fact: every year since the NBA began, college stars take a dive when they get to the NBA
                        fact: every year since the NBA began, star NBA rookies don't live up to their promise in subsequent years.

                        Selling the farm over the hype of a bunch of high school kids is incredibly naive and short-sighted.
                        Agreed. Look at how many teams are fucked if the 2013 highschoolers all bomb out in college. Every draft is filled with landmines.
                        Twitter - @thekid_it

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          You're right Matt52. My apologies for being an asshole, particularly to magoon.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            p00ka wrote: View Post
                            You're right Matt52. My apologies for being an asshole, particularly to magoon.
                            And mine back in turn, because I can certainly come across as arrogant or condescending.

                            We're all Raps fans and that's what's most important.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              NO! There's specified threads for getting along.. this is not one of them. I demand pooka and Maggom fight to the death gladiator style!
                              If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

                              Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

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                              • #90
                                waaay too much love for chicago. i keep getting the vibe from everyone that rose is the saviour and will bring the bulls back to prominence, even when half their bench from last season is gone.

                                i say raps end up 5th, 6th seed for sure. i agree. nets, i dunnnnno, i think they're gonna scare some people, if kidd can figure out how to coach and not drink and drive.

                                feet85 wrote: View Post
                                1. Miami Heat
                                2. Chicago Bulls
                                3. Indiana Pacers
                                4. Brooklyn Nets
                                5. New York Knicks
                                6. Toronto Raptors
                                7. Washington Wizards
                                8. Detroit Pistons

                                Ladies and Gentlemen your 2013-14 Eastern Conference Playoffs
                                Protocall
                                https://www.youtube.com/user/PTC204
                                http://www.ptc204.com

                                Uploaded a new track: Please like or comment on it if you dig it! Thanks
                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAT4s_LO-rc

                                The best day of 2013 was the day I found out Andrea Bargnani got traded.

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