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Chisholm: Ujiri the anti-Colangelo?

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  • #16
    As Bouncepass has appropriately pointed out, the Bosh and Melo scenarios were apples to oranges, so I don't respect Chisholm's brief lip service to the situations being so completely different, while continuing to say that the way the two were handled indicates that Masai is the anti-BC. The man speaks with forked tongue.

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    • #17
      Apollo wrote: View Post
      Sounds like MLSE is offering him his projected worth as opposed to his current worth. Nothing wrong with that. I'm wondering what the offer is in comparison to what Colangelo got in his first deal with Toronto? I think they were paying him $5M/yr. It has to be higher than that. Could it be $6-10M range? I mean when you think about it, Bargnani makes beyond the high end of that and if one were to compare what Bargnani could produce for this team playing his best every night, and the impact of Ujiri could have on the team from the sidelines then there is no comparison. Great executive should make great money and they don't count against the cap so the risk is less.

      One more thing, money talks. If Denver offered $3-4M/yr and Toronto is offering $6-8M/yr then no brainer at the end of the day once feelings subside and logic takes over.
      What I read was way below that. Denver staying at something like the 0,5 he makes now and Toronto offering 2 and going up to around 3 in the negotiations.

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      • #18
        nothing makes me happier than reading a well thought out, well written article on bball.
        For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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        • #19
          Again, BC kept Bosh until Free Agency, this is not a trade, Sign & Trade is a consolation prize, it created as consolation prize so teams can get something in return, its hardly a negotiation, Melo happened from the summer to the point he was traded, Superstars demanding trades always have changed up their list if their first option is not available because it is not up to them yet, so they have to bend. When you are a free agent you hold all the cards and dont have to bend.
          Its apples and Oranges because BC let it become apple and oranges, if BC had told him sign and extension or you're going to the Bobcats, you dont think Bosh would have to give him more targets then Miami. again Sign and Trade is only a trade in name, Bosh walked out, its that simple.

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          • #20
            Bouncepass wrote: View Post
            One of the main differences between the two is the return on the trade of their star player. In this, Chisholm acknowledges but downplays the differences. Not only did Bosh continue to play coy with Raptors' fans and management about his intentions, he only had one target destination - Miami. If Colangelo had the flexibility to look at more than one destination for trading Bosh, he too could have ratcheted up the value of the trade. Instead, Bosh left him with no alternative but to get whatever he could. Since other teams would have had little interest in trading for Bosh only to lose him to Miami, there was no trade value. This was all orchestrated by Bosh and the Heat. If Colangelo had been at liberty to get market value for Bosh, the Raptors franchise would be in a much better position (as would the Cavs, who got very little for trading this generation's best player). In contrast, Ujiri was able to look at various trade options for Carmelo, and teams knew that they would have to pay in the form of salary relief, draft picks and assets to acquire him. He did a good job on the trade, but comparing his situation to Colangelo's is apples to oranges.
            My biggest complaint over the Bosh situation is that in the offseason prior to his Final year with Raps BC should have either got extension signed or traded him.

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            • #21
              Dino4life wrote: View Post
              Again, BC kept Bosh until Free Agency, this is not a trade, Sign & Trade is a consolation prize, it created as consolation prize so teams can get something in return, its hardly a negotiation, Melo happened from the summer to the point he was traded, Superstars demanding trades always have changed up their list if their first option is not available because it is not up to them yet, so they have to bend. When you are a free agent you hold all the cards and dont have to bend.
              Its apples and Oranges because BC let it become apple and oranges, if BC had told him sign and extension or you're going to the Bobcats, you dont think Bosh would have to give him more targets then Miami. again Sign and Trade is only a trade in name, Bosh walked out, its that simple.
              Agreed.

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              • #22
                Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                What I read was way below that. Denver staying at something like the 0,5 he makes now and Toronto offering 2 and going up to around 3 in the negotiations.
                Wow, so they may get him for less than they were paying Colangelo? That's awesome if it happens.

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                • #23
                  Dino4life wrote: View Post
                  Again, BC kept Bosh until Free Agency, this is not a trade, Sign & Trade is a consolation prize, it created as consolation prize so teams can get something in return, its hardly a negotiation, Melo happened from the summer to the point he was traded, Superstars demanding trades always have changed up their list if their first option is not available because it is not up to them yet, so they have to bend. When you are a free agent you hold all the cards and dont have to bend.
                  Its apples and Oranges because BC let it become apple and oranges, if BC had told him sign and extension or you're going to the Bobcats, you dont think Bosh would have to give him more targets then Miami. again Sign and Trade is only a trade in name, Bosh walked out, its that simple.
                  Not really because the Bobcats (or any other team) were not giving up assets to get a player they might only have for 3 months. If BC pulled that, Bosh could have said, "Fine. I"m still not signing an extension and I'm still going to be unrestricted in 3 months."

                  It sucks for Toronto and Cleveland that they were the guinea pigs for something that had never been done before - players leaving money on the table to play with one another.

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                  • #24
                    Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    **I am sure this will be merged but thought it could go on its own for a couple of days first**

                    Tim Chisholm is no longer writing for TSN.ca and now has his own blog: threeinthekey.ca. Tim always has insightful and well thought articles, make sure you make it a part of your Raptor reading.



                    This article is worth the click.
                    thanks Matt. I couldn't see Chisholm for a week and wondered what was up.

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                    • #25
                      Not to diminish how Ujiri handled the Melo melodrama because he in the end he was not swayed by the threat that Melo wanted only to go to the Knicks. I wanted at the time so much that the Nets get him because he would have to have signed on or lost a considerable amount in a straight f/a deal (I dont care for Melo). Ujiri milked the Nets interest totally because there was more than just getting a superstar for the Nets...Prokhorov was trying to upstage Dolan for attention in NYC and he wanted a big name for the Barclays Centre. Dolan of course wanted to show he had a larger bulge in his pants. Ujiri lucked into getting more than he would have otherwise got....but well played he certainly did.

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                      • #26
                        Bendit wrote: View Post
                        Not to diminish how Ujiri handled the Melo melodrama because he in the end he was not swayed by the threat that Melo wanted only to go to the Knicks. I wanted at the time so much that the Nets get him because he would have to have signed on or lost a considerable amount in a straight f/a deal (I dont care for Melo). Ujiri milked the Nets interest totally because there was more than just getting a superstar for the Nets...Prokhorov was trying to upstage Dolan for attention in NYC and he wanted a big name for the Barclays Centre. Dolan of course wanted to show he had a larger bulge in his pants. Ujiri lucked into getting more than he would have otherwise got....but well played he certainly did.
                        Good points.

                        Whether or not the Nets got Melo, they also wanted to ensure the Knicks paid maximum price for him - which they did I think.

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                        • #27
                          The way I see it is that BC was tried and he failed while Ujiri is untried and hopefully succeeds. Not to take anything away from Chislom but Ujiri's managerial decisions which he quotes as reasons(anti BC) why Raps. are pursuing him is not true. The simple truth is that a 'head hunting Firm' that the Raptors hired identified him as the best AVAILABLE candidate.

                          IMO they're both good. The MAIN difference was in how they dealt with Superstars of their respective teams. Ujiri situation was CLEAR wherein C Anthony was whining to be traded out while BC's situation was UNCLEAR with Bosh making many believe that he was going to stay when he really had other intentions. This is not to make excuses for BC but like Anthony if Bosh too had expressed his desire to be traded, things would be quite different in Raptorland.
                          Attitude Is A Choice.

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                          • #28
                            Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
                            The way I see it is that BC was tried and he failed while Ujiri is untried and hopefully succeeds. Not to take anything away from Chislom but Ujiri's managerial decisions which he quotes as reasons(anti BC) why Raps. are pursuing him is not true. The simple truth is that a 'head hunting Firm' that the Raptors hired identified him as the best AVAILABLE candidate.

                            IMO they're both good. The MAIN difference was in how they dealt with Superstars of their respective teams. Ujiri situation was CLEAR wherein C Anthony was whining to be traded out while BC's situation was UNCLEAR with Bosh making many believe that he was going to stay when he really had other intentions. This is not to make excuses for BC but like Anthony if Bosh too had expressed his desire to be traded, things would be quite different in Raptorland.
                            What you say is essentially correct abount the Bosh-Colangelo matter and I am still of the view that Bosh was a weasel. However BC is paid to make determinations on such issues in the best interests of the Raptors. Once Bosh refused to sign/agree to a max. agreement the writing was on the wall. Ujiri learned from that. He also offered Melo the same and knew what was coming when it was refused. I do not fully recall but I believe Melo did not start insisting on the Knicks until much later in the process and otherwise being quite vague about his intentions. Bosh on the other hand always maintained he was going to give the Raptors an equal shot and if not would cooperate on getting the best sign and trade deal for all concerned. That was a load.

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                            • #29
                              Bendit wrote: View Post
                              What you say is essentially correct abount the Bosh-Colangelo matter and I am still of the view that Bosh was a weasel. However BC is paid to make determinations on such issues in the best interests of the Raptors. Once Bosh refused to sign/agree to a max. agreement the writing was on the wall. Ujiri learned from that. He also offered Melo the same and knew what was coming when it was refused. I do not fully recall but I believe Melo did not start insisting on the Knicks until much later in the process and otherwise being quite vague about his intentions. Bosh on the other hand always maintained he was going to give the Raptors an equal shot and if not would cooperate on getting the best sign and trade deal for all concerned. That was a load.
                              I agree that's it was BC's job to 'make determinations' on matters, especially one as important as the 'Bosh situation'. That's the reason he was GM and no excuse is acceptable.

                              I just don't agree with Chislom on this matter.
                              Attitude Is A Choice.

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                              • #30
                                1) Ujiri had the benefit of seeing what happened to bosh (as well as James), so his decision was informed by it (them).

                                2) We have seen teams wanting to trade for an all-star even though said all-star is not willing to give them a guarantee that hey will resign (Nets w/ 'Melo, Lakers w/Dwight) I think there are enough teams that believe they could convince bosh to stay, that had Coangelo put him on the table, he would have had more than one suitor. Unfortunately, the idea that you can convince an all-star to stay once you have him in your org, is the same mentality that Coangelo had, and thus tried to keep him.

                                3) In my books Coangelo doesn't lose points for not trading bosh before the deadline (although in hindsight that is almost certainly the better decision. What he does lose points for is building a team so poorly that bosh was willing to leave, trading draft picks away, and missing on EVERY home run he tried. Plus holding onto Andrea for about 3 years (AND COUNTING!) too long...

                                4) If the article was just about the Melo trade, than I'd call it an unfair as one (IMO) was CLEARLY influenced by the other. However, their was more to it than that. Sure calling him the anti-Coangelo is a touch hyperbolic, but I do think that he does a good job in pointing out that Ujiri may be a more moneyball gm than Coangelo, and a journalist without hyperbole is like a fish without water.

                                5) If your not getting a guy like Phil Jackson, then I'm all for Ujiri
                                "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

                                "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

                                "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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