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The Toronto Media advises us not to panic. Are the Raptors where they need to be?

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  • #16
    Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    Just because fans have higher expectations for the season doesn't mean that those expectations are realistic or should set the bar.

    I'd like to point out that oddsmakers (who, despite what you may think, know a shitload more about professional sports and about the NBA than any of us posting here do) put the Raps between about 32 and 34 wins across many books.

    So who do you think had the more realistic expectations, the people who make billions of dollars taking money from people with high expectations, or the fans?

    http://www.beyondthebets.com/odds-co...s-sportsbooks/

    It's early in the season, the schedule has been rough and the team isn't performing up to par, but so what? Why does this season matter aside from development? Let things play out, if they're still in the basement at the all-star break and haven't shown signs of improving, then you can argue for drastic changes. Until then, any knee-jerk reactions are just going to set the team back further.
    Here here. I second this motion. Well-said Lark.
    Welp, that sucked.

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    • #17
      Doug Smith is so clueless about everything. His sources are garbage. A day or two before DeRozan got extended, he was like there's a 90% chance he won't be extended. Pathetic sports journalist.

      Can't believe only one guy has called Colangelo out.

      Comment


      • #18
        Lark Benson wrote: View Post
        Just because fans have higher expectations for the season doesn't mean that those expectations are realistic or should set the bar.

        I'd like to point out that oddsmakers (who, despite what you may think, know a shitload more about professional sports and about the NBA than any of us posting here do) put the Raps between about 32 and 34 wins across many books.

        So who do you think had the more realistic expectations, the people who make billions of dollars taking money from people with high expectations, or the fans?

        http://www.beyondthebets.com/odds-co...s-sportsbooks/

        It's early in the season, the schedule has been rough and the team isn't performing up to par, but so what? Why does this season matter aside from development? Let things play out, if they're still in the basement at the all-star break and haven't shown signs of improving, then you can argue for drastic changes. Until then, any knee-jerk reactions are just going to set the team back further.
        Repeating, in part, what Craiger said:

        1. This isn't about fan expectations. It's about management's expectations. He traded his first rounder. Raptors management talked about "accelerated rebuild" "competing for playoffs". High expectations weren't on the fans. It's on BC and co.

        2. Why does this season matter? Cause management said it would. Why do I have to wait until the All-Star break? 6 years of this, the last 4 of total garbage, isn't enough time to make a judgment about this management team?

        3. Knee-jerk? Again, it's closing in on 7 freaking seasons. How long do you people need to make a judgment on things? Why not just give them all lifetime contracts? Jebus.

        EDIT: By the way, through the SA game, the Raps had played the 7th easiest schedule in the NBA.

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        • #19
          slaw wrote: View Post
          Repeating, in part, what Craiger said:

          1. This isn't about fan expectations. It's about management's expectations. He traded his first rounder. Raptors management talked about "accelerated rebuild" "competing for playoffs". High expectations weren't on the fans. It's on BC and co.

          2. Why does this season matter? Cause management said it would. Why do I have to wait until the All-Star break? 6 years of this, the last 4 of total garbage, isn't enough time to make a judgment about this management team?

          3. Knee-jerk? Again, it's closing in on 7 freaking seasons. How long do you people need to make a judgment on things? Why not just give them all lifetime contracts? Jebus.

          EDIT: By the way, through the SA game, the Raps had played the 7th easiest schedule in the NBA.
          Couldn't agree more. Bryan Colangelo is one of the highest paid GMs in the NBA and what does he have to show for it? One winning season? 3 wins in the playoffs? Lost a franchise player in Bosh for pretty much nothing?

          If you look at the schedule in January, we play 11 teams that are currently sitting in a playoff spot. Fast forward to end of April and our last 7 games of the season are also against playoff-bound teams. Do people honestly think this team will turn things around especially when we're going on a west coast trip after the Phoenix game? Add to the fact that John Wall, Avery Bradley, Gerald Henderson, Hedo Turkoglu, Kyrie Irving, and etc. will be back in mid-December.

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          • #20
            BD12 wrote: View Post
            Doug Smith is so clueless about everything. His sources are garbage. A day or two before DeRozan got extended, he was like there's a 90% chance he won't be extended. Pathetic sports journalist.

            Can't believe only one guy has called Colangelo out.
            doug smith has excellent sources, he has inside access to the raptors organization. Unfortunately, he's too stupid to separate the truth from the lies they feed him. It doesn't help that he has a very know it all attitude.

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            • #21
              Lark Benson wrote: View Post
              Just because fans have higher expectations for the season doesn't mean that those expectations are realistic or should set the bar.

              I'd like to point out that oddsmakers (who, despite what you may think, know a shitload more about professional sports and about the NBA than any of us posting here do) put the Raps between about 32 and 34 wins across many books.

              So who do you think had the more realistic expectations, the people who make billions of dollars taking money from people with high expectations, or the fans?

              http://www.beyondthebets.com/odds-co...s-sportsbooks/

              It's early in the season, the schedule has been rough and the team isn't performing up to par, but so what? Why does this season matter aside from development? Let things play out, if they're still in the basement at the all-star break and haven't shown signs of improving, then you can argue for drastic changes. Until then, any knee-jerk reactions are just going to set the team back further.
              wow you sound like bc. every season is a god damn rebuilding and development season. this year will be bargs year. etc, etc. fuck that.

              losing sucks. constant ridicule, watching a team play so badly. 4 years running. 5 years if you count being blown out by orlando.

              people say as a fan of the team you should always back them. but what if the team shows you no respect by constantly signing and overpaying bad players, never making the needed big changes to get back to playoffs and a winning record.

              and with the above replies, yea, BC hyped us up so much.

              Comment


              • #22
                I don't know how much to put into Hollinger's Power Rankings, but I've found by the end of the season (in the past) they usually pan out to reflect the final standings with relative accuracy. That said, I've noticed he currently has the Raptors ranked #23 in the league, a sliver behind the 76ers who are over .500, and firmly ahead of Dallas. Not saying #23 is great, but I think it reflects that the Raps are certainly not as bad as their record reflects. Aside from the game against Houston, and playing Memphis who is currently the best team in the league (and on the second night of a back to back) the Raps have been in pretty much every game. That's respectable in my books. I'm not thrilled about their record or their recent efforts, but I'm guessing morale is low right now after so many heartbreaking losses in the final minutes of a number of their games this season. As the team develops together in the coming months, I suspect they'll learn to close-out those close games and the wins will improve. Will they make the playoffs? I doubt it. But by the end of the season they'll give us all just enough hope to look forward to next year so they can subject us to the same experience all over again. The Raps aren't a horrible team, but they aren't a great team either. They are mediocre. And that's really the problem because one of the hardest things to do in the NBA is convince a difference maker to join a team with a history of mediocrity (and in the Raps case a team located in different country to boot). In summation? I'm not going to 'panic', I'm just going to continue expecting this team to be what they are: mediocre. That doesn't mean I can't be entertained though. As heartbreaking as the close losses have been, they were nail-biting, and I was entertained. Jonas has been a thrill to watch, ED has shown flashes of what he's capable of, and I'm curious to see how Ross develops. The wins will come. Maybe not in bunches, but the Raps should end the season where everyone pretty much expected them to be. (Lesson: never expect any more than what's expected)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Doug Smith

                  Doug Smith has zero credibility. He never criticizes the organization, no matter how bad things get. I think he associates a measured reaction with professionalism. Unfortunately, this really gets ridiculous at times.

                  I vividly recall him defending the Vince Carter trade when it went down.
                  "We can't judge the trade until we see what Babcock gets out of those draft picks" was his reasoning. Only years later, when Babcock is gone, does he admit the Raptors got fleeced.

                  If the Raptors traded Valanciunas for Darko tomorrow, Dough Smith would defend Colangelo.
                  "Let's wait and see" he would say. "You can't judge the trade for at least 20 games."

                  I don't even have to read his blog to know what his reaction will be to even the most blatant mistakes on the part of management.
                  "Fans need to calm down. Lets wait and see."
                  Only in retrospect, when the guilty party has been fired, will he point out any failings.

                  The facts that he spouts this stuff in an arrogant and patronizing tone just makes him even more unreadable.

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                  • #24
                    lol, the Doug making the koolaid instead of drinking it, nice one Craiger.



                    The facts are that Bryan traded away this years pick, and protected it in such a way that he SHOWED to ALL that he intended on being 8th seed.


                    ...or he is an imbecile. (which of course is possible at this point)

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                    • #25
                      I can't believe how many people in this thread are saying they're matching their expectations to what the organization stated theirs were. I'm about to get rude here, so forgive me because this is just venting.

                      Do you guys take all of your opinions from press releases? Are you fucking kidding me?

                      It's BC's fucking job to hype the team, sell tickets and get you to watch games and buy merchandise. HIS FUCKING JOB. What in the fuck did you expect them to do, tell you this season was probably gonna be rough and not worth watching? What kind of message would it send to the players if they WEREN'T aiming for the playoffs? I don't doubt that if BC had've declared this another building year or something, you'd be complaining about that too. Christ it's amazing how impossible to please you guys are.

                      I'm genuinely sorry if you drank the kool-aid and now you want something a little tastier, but it's your own fucking fault for being completely blind to the realities of the team. I want BC gone as badly as the next guy, but it has everything to do with his performance and NOTHING to do with the 'expectations' he sets up for the team. Literally nothing that comes from that man's mouth should be trusted or taken without a mountain of salt. After 7 years with the team, how anyone can not realize that is completely beyond me.

                      As an aside:
                      Craiger wrote: View Post
                      As for the odds maker I think its important to remember their job isn't to get it right. Its to try and predict how wrong the public is willing to be. In gambling the house never needs to be right and they don't try to be. Now I don't think there is anything wrong with using their over-unders or spreads to get an unbias opinion of roughly what others think of the team, but its not a statement. Its a prediction of where they can draw the most bets.
                      Exactly right. And since the numbers they post are clearly designed to entrap people who believe the team will be better than 32-34 wins, that means most books think that they'll actually perform worse.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Sorry Lark. But Bryan Colangelo actually came out last season and flat out told the media that this was not going to be a good team and didn't expect them to make the playoffs. So no, he didn't hype the team one bit.

                        After this off-season, he said the goal this season was to make the playoffs. He traded our first-round pick away as well which clearly indicates he was doing whatever it takes to win. So far he has failed.
                        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Quotes

                        If last season was about developing, Bryan Colangelo says this season is about winning.

                        The Toronto Raptors held its annual media day Monday to kick off training camp in what the team’s general manager called a “completely different atmosphere” from last season.

                        “You go into a season excited about what the prospects are,” Colangelo said. “I cannot say that I went into last season excited about what the prospects were.”

                        http://o.canada.com/2012/10/01/toron...about-winning/

                        I can dig up more quotes if you like.

                        “(Last season) knowing that Jonas wasn’t coming over, knowing that it was going to be a struggle to win games, knowing it was part of the long grind of letting the young players play and learn and develop. . .,” Colangelo said.


                        The GM said this year’s new-look roster reminds him of the team he assembled in his first full season in Toronto in 2006-07. Andrea Bargnani was a rookie on that squad that went on to win the Atlantic Division and play New Jersey in the first round of the playoffs.

                        “This team seems to have a lot of those same characteristics,” Colangelo said. “It just seems to me, with the newness of the group and the chemistry we’ve seen, the commitment of the players all coming together, spending a lot of time in Toronto. . . there’s that feeling there could be something special abut this group but time will tell.”
                        Last edited by BD12; Thu Nov 29, 2012, 01:31 PM.

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                        • #27
                          It's hard to say it wasn't me, when the pick is no longer in your right pocket.


                          (for someone who has conglomerated so many assets, funny that the only thing worth anything are the unused picks)

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            BD12 wrote: View Post
                            Sorry Lark. But Bryan Colangelo actually came out last season and flat out told the media that this was not going to be a good team and didn't expect them to make the playoffs. So no, he didn't hype the team one bit.

                            After this off-season, he said the goal this season was to make the playoffs. He traded our first-round pick away as well which clearly indicates he was doing whatever it takes to win. So far he has failed.
                            /facepalm

                            He traded away what was expected to be a mid lottery pick in a terrible draft for one of the best contracts in the NBA. Even if the goal wasn't to make the playoffs, that's still a good move.

                            And once again, OF COURSE HE SAID THE GOAL WAS TO MAKE THE PLAYOFFS. On paper, this team should be fighting for a spot at the end of the year. Hilariously, the majority of fans on these very forums believed that to be true. But sometimes players get hurt, your 'franchise guy' doesn't perform, shit happens. It happens to a bunch of teams every year, and just about every fringe playoff team in the sport talks about making the playoffs, because again, IT'S THEIR JOB, not only to get fans in the seats but to set the bar high for the players and get them motivated.

                            You can bash the man all you want for his performance as a GM, but I can't believe people will throw him under the bus for stating the team should be fighting for the playoffs when, on paper and if everything had broken right, they should be. That's just insane.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              At this point, I think its fair for fans to go by the record. We don't seem to have one player that has a shot at the allstar game. Not one after Bryan took over a team with a player that was a perennial allstar. After 7 years. Not a pick, not an allstar.


                              At what point do you admit that this guy sells used cars?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Lark Benson wrote: View Post
                                /facepalm

                                He traded away what was expected to be a mid lottery pick in a terrible draft for one of the best contracts in the NBA. Even if the goal wasn't to make the playoffs, that's still a good move.

                                And once again, OF COURSE HE SAID THE GOAL WAS TO MAKE THE PLAYOFFS. On paper, this team should be fighting for a spot at the end of the year. Hilariously, the majority of fans on these very forums believed that to be true. But sometimes players get hurt, your 'franchise guy' doesn't perform, shit happens. It happens to a bunch of teams every year, and just about every fringe playoff team in the sport talks about making the playoffs, because again, IT'S THEIR JOB, not only to get fans in the seats but to set the bar high for the players and get them motivated.

                                You can bash the man all you want for his performance as a GM, but I can't believe people will throw him under the bus for stating the team should be fighting for the playoffs when, on paper and if everything had broken right, they should be. That's just insane.
                                Where exactly did I say he was wrong for saying that? He can say whatever he wants to be honest. I'm more upset that he accelerated the rebuild. But facepalm all you want. Trading away a first-round pick for a player that isn't even an all-star is never a good move for a franchise that lacks talent and has trouble attracting decent players in free agency.

                                This team is in a much worse position now. 2nd last in the conference with a west coast trip coming up and without a draft pick.

                                And I just copied and pasted some quotes where BC actually said the team was going to struggle last season. So yes, he did say last year the team was going to more or less suck.

                                And to add -- I'm sorry but even on paper this team looked nothing like a playoff team especially with Landry Fields starting and a project centre in Val.
                                Last edited by BD12; Thu Nov 29, 2012, 01:49 PM.

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