TANK vs ANTI TANK - SUPER THREAD - The Because I Can't Keep Track Edition

[magoon]

Pat Riley is considered a great executive, yet he picked Beasley over Love.

Riley wasn't evaluating talent incorrectly, because when Beasley is focused, he's a fantastic player: see his rookie year, see what he's doing with the Heat now (it's nuts). Sometimes you don't know that a player is a headcase. It happens. (See: Muhammad, Shabazz.) But talent evaluation is much more of a science now than it was ten years ago; everybody has a good idea of how much skill players have coming into the draft, at least at present. The rest is how much they can learn/be taught and how responsible they can be.

[Sig]

You mean tanking "properly", as in Cleveland Cavaliers. #1 (Kyrie) #4 (Tristan), #4 (Waiters) , #1 (Bennett). Plus additional late 1st round picks and a sprinkling of 2nd rounders. All in the last 3 years, no less. Now that's a "proper" tank if there ever was one. And yet the Cavs are a total mess.

Have fun 'splaining that one, pro-tankers.

The cavs drafted badly.

[enlightenment]

What the Cavs couldve had if drafted correctly:

Kyrie
Oladipo
Barnes
-
Jonas

[Axel]

Oh, I most certainly have read most of the arguments. In fact, I got a shout-out thread from my man, Matt52 himself, on the topic of franchise building, encompassing the draft, management, culture and all those topics.

http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...get-him-golden


Perhaps you haven't read any of that, but no matter. There certainly are many posters (Matt52, Craig, Craiger, CalRaps, Nilanka, Axel, etc, etc...), and also bloggers like Tim. W, who I respect and have gone back and forth with many times on the subject.

To many pro-tankers, the key to building a championship contender is acquiring elite talent (I agree), and their opinion is that the best way to do that for this Raptors team is to tank this season to get a top 5 pick in this years draft. Would you call that last sentence, putting words in anybody's mouth? I think it sums up the sentiment of a lot of the posters here - no? In fact there was a whole thread dedicated to the topic that top players were top draft picks that is supposed to change the opinion of all anti-tankers into tankers. Did you not read it?

The Cavs followed the tanking for picks model to perfection and it didn't work. Other teams (Pacers, Grizzlies, Rockets, Blazers-maybe) are showing that there are other ways to build contenders than through tanking.

I mean, even tanking itself isn't proving to be easy for teams that were pre-season locks. Q: Is trading Gay tanking, or is a Ewing Theory move that will actually get us more wins. Is firing Casey a good or bad move for the tank or good/bad for the long-term development of the franchise. Tanking ain't easy.

At the end of the day, intelligent managerial decisions are what separates a tank model (OKC, Boston pre KG) and a perennial loser (Charlotte, Sacramento). At this point we have to choose to believe in MU no matter the philosophy or we are in for another rough 7 years (or more).

I think it is certainly possible for this team to build using a lower pick 13-17 range and pairing it with a core of DD, JV and Ross but I think it is a slower build and a riskier build. Either way, Gay cannot be in our future and I don't think Lowry can be signed for the right $ to make it worth it.

If the Raps choose the stay the course and push for the playoffs I'll be disappointed but will quickly turn my attention to maximizing whatever assets (pick in the draft, expiring deals, vet role players) to help the team move forward.

At this point, no matter what happens we have hope because of the faith in Masai. 3 years down the road might be very different in that regards but right now it's all we got.

[golden]

At the end of the day, intelligent managerial decisions are what separates a tank model (OKC, Boston pre KG) and a perennial loser (Charlotte, Sacramento). At this point we have to choose to believe in MU no matter the philosophy or we are in for another rough 7 years (or more).

I think it is certainly possible for this team to build using a lower pick 13-17 range and pairing it with a core of DD, JV and Ross but I think it is a slower build and a riskier build. Either way, Gay cannot be in our future and I don't think Lowry can be signed for the right $ to make it worth it.

If the Raps choose the stay the course and push for the playoffs I'll be disappointed but will quickly turn my attention to maximizing whatever assets (pick in the draft, expiring deals, vet role players) to help the team move forward.

At this point, no matter what happens we have hope because of the faith in Masai. 3 years down the road might be very different in that regards but right now it's all we got.

Here's the thing. With Gay and Casey, we are worse than the consensus pre-season tank favourites (Celtics and Sixers), in perhaps the worst division in the history of professional sports. Maybe Simmons nailed it. Stay the course = best tank odds. Keep sucking right until the end, under the stealth guise of 'playoff push', which actually might be possible in the Atlantic this year.

[Axel]

Here's the thing. With Gay and Casey, we are worse than the consensus pre-season tank favourites (Celtics and Sixers), in perhaps the worst division in the history of professional sports. Maybe Simmons nailed it. Stay the course = best tank odds. Keep sucking right until the end, under the stealth guise of 'playoff push', which actually might be possible in the Atlantic this year.

Sad but true. Gay's current production will help us lose games but I still want him gone so that minutes and touches can flow through Ross and JV.

I've said before and I'll say it again , I don't think there is much benefit to firing Casey during this season. We won't be able to lure a premiere candidate in season with this roster and any of the next best things (assistants, D-league coaches, etc) will still be available in the offseason.

[Bendit]

A reminder/addition to above discussion....this draft of 2014 is a much weighted reason for myself anyway to go the route/sacrifice this season and be in the conversation within the top 4-6 position prior to the balls falling. Then work a deal with Gilbert (Cavs) to rent his son for the draw. If this was the quality of the 2006 draft eg. I may have been on shaky ground re my "tank".

[TSF]

I'm not a huge fan of tanking as I am a fan of improving the amount of assets you have. I like the current team (minus rudy) and would like to see A) If Lowry is interested in re-signing, B) If Ross and Demar can play effectively together, C) What the team would do with a half-decent coach. I think you have to get rid of Rudy, even if he's helping us tank, because he's hurting the development of the youngsters and showing them some bad habits. Everyone else, I say you keep and see what they can do with a good coach. But if someone offers a good proposal for everyone but Jonas? Ex the bobcats pick and butler? You do that deal and go into tanking mode.

[mcHAPPY]

Oh, I most certainly have read most of the arguments. In fact, I got a shout-out thread from my man, Matt52 himself, on the topic of franchise building, encompassing the draft, management, culture and all those topics.

http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...get-him-golden


Perhaps you haven't read any of that, but no matter. There certainly are many posters (Matt52, Craig, Craiger, CalRaps, Nilanka, Axel, etc, etc...), and also bloggers like Tim. W, who I respect and have gone back and forth with many times on the subject.

To many pro-tankers, the key to building a championship contender is acquiring elite talent (I agree), and their opinion is that the best way to do that for this Raptors team is to tank this season to get a top 5 pick in this years draft. Would you call that last sentence, putting words in anybody's mouth? I think it sums up the sentiment of a lot of the posters here - no? In fact there was a whole thread dedicated to the topic that top players were top draft picks that is supposed to change the opinion of all anti-tankers into tankers. Did you not read it?

The Cavs followed the tanking for picks model to perfection and it didn't work. Other teams (Pacers, Grizzlies, Rockets, Blazers-maybe) are showing that there are other ways to build contenders than through tanking.

I mean, even tanking itself isn't proving to be easy for teams that were pre-season locks. Q: Is trading Gay tanking, or is a Ewing Theory move that will actually get us more wins. Is firing Casey a good or bad move for the tank or good/bad for the long-term development of the franchise. Tanking ain't easy.

golden I'm confused by your posts.

I've not read anything by any pro tankers around here that one good draft pick in this draft solves everything.

It is merely the start.

The key for Toronto is to find the player to build with and around. Draft is most likely place to find.

[golden]

golden I'm confused by your posts.

I've not read anything by any pro tankers around here that one good draft pick in this draft solves everything.

It is merely the start.

The key for Toronto is to find the player to build with and around. Draft is most likely place to find.

I'm probably getting a bit confused too, but I'm questioning even if tanking this year is going to be successful starting point and the risk/reward of doing that, considering: (1) history of tank teams like Cleveland, Cats, etc.., (2) the draft record of even respected GMs, (3) the success of teams actually trying to tank this year, (4) Dwane Casey ... And even if we pick the right player, how fast is it really going to be, anyway? And how sustainable? Masai himself, even alludes to the 'karma' of teams that intentionally try to do it.

Are there other ways to turnaround a franchise faster that don't involve consciously trying to position yourself as low as possible and damaging the other assets on your roster? Personally I lean towards: (a) changing the coach, (b) internal player development & (c) trading for other teams picks over tanking for your own pick. After looking at all the examples and great arguments here, I'm starting to think that tanking for your own pick is really a last resort, desperation type of move. Raps are bad, but I'm not sure we're all the way to pathetic, are we?

[Fully]

It's about turning over the roster, getting the maximum return on players who aren't in your long term plans (Gay, Lowry, potentially some others depending on what they'd bring back) and helping the younger guys who remain reach their full potential.

But while this is all going on, the Raptors would be crazy not to gun for as high of a draft pick as possible. It's no longer a question that they need more elite talent, and the top five of the draft gives you a relatively good chance of landing some of it. Once the season moves from a win now mandate to a rebuilding/youth development/whatever other descriptor you'd like to use phase, why wouldn't you want as high of a pick as possible? Is it the morality of quote-unquote tanking?

The importance of culture, coaching, chemistry is certainly real. But trying to install those things while the team is so poorly constructed from top to bottom is an exercise in futility. We've supposedly been building a winning culture in Raptorland for the last two and a half years, but at the end of the day it gets undermined by a lack of talent and a poorly put together team. Building a culture with guys who won't be here in 9 months time seems like a lot of tire spinning to me.

[Dino4life]

I'm probably getting a bit confused too, but I'm questioning even if tanking this year is going to be successful starting point and the risk/reward of doing that, considering: (1) history of tank teams like Cleveland, Cats, etc.., (2) the draft record of even respected GMs, (3) the success of teams actually trying to tank this year, (4) Dwane Casey ... And even if we pick the right player, how fast is it really going to be, anyway? And how sustainable? Masai himself, even alludes to the 'karma' of teams that intentionally try to do it.

Are there other ways to turnaround a franchise faster that don't involve consciously trying to position yourself as low as possible and damaging the other assets on your roster? Personally I lean towards: (a) changing the coach, (b) internal player development & (c) trading for other teams picks over tanking for your own pick. After looking at all the examples and great arguments here, I'm starting to think that tanking for your own pick is really a last resort, desperation type of move. Raps are bad, but I'm not sure we're all the way to pathetic, are we?

The people who expect the raptors to trade away all their decent (we don't have any good ones) players for expirings and hope the lottery ball bounces our way are so very few, the majority just wants players who have been in the league for 8 years and haven't improved in years off the roster, people who eat up most of the cap space off the roster. Make room for the younger guys who will be in uniform in 4 years. You don't haven have to get draft picks, recently drafted players is good enough for most also.

Me personnally, if Lowry & Gay are traded away for 1st rounders (to make up for the ones we gave up) and the DD,JV,Ross,Amir, Fields carry the team to undefeated record for the rest of the season I'll be ecstatic, because that's something you can build on. A team with Lowry & Gay as its centerpiece offers no flexibility.

We need to make a poll to replace the word Tanking with one that means young asset/draft pick hoarding and watch the stupid debate disappear. No one wants to loose, we just don't want this roster, because we don't have faith in its core, and its core has been proving us right since january of last year. That and we ban the word wiggins untill the draft lottery day.

Every team has a training camp, every team has internal growth, if that's the plan to get over the competition then that's the equivalent of hoping to win the lottery.

[Shrub]

Spectacle tank.

Masai fires Casey, hires Lawrence Frank, and bans defense.
Except steals and blocks.
Staying in front of your man?
Nope.
Take ball.

We trade them.
All of them.
And then buy-outs and waivings.

Roster spots are filled by systematically signing every eligable player to a one-time 10 day contract.
Fans are intrigued by all the new faces, and tune in to see who will play the worst.

The Raptors force Shaqtin' a fool to expand to 10 clips.
They are still featured in 9 of them, with Bargnani taking the remaining spot.

Records for individual performance are broken on a nightly basis, by players from opposing teams.
Audiences throughout the U.S become avid watchers of Raptors basketball.
A trend is observed that every team goes on a winning streak after playing the Raptors.

DeMar DeRozan goes for 82 in his first return to the ACC.
In Rudy's, he becomes the only player in the NBA to shoot less than 40% against the Raptors.

Raptors get the #1 pick, and draft a yet unknown Nigerian prospect that has three arms.

[planetmars]

When the season was starting and Bryan was on the hot seat I was on the 'anti-tank' side.. but quickly changed my stance when I looked at the payroll and the quality of the roster that Bryan put together.

I don't see a team that can strive for playoffs with Lowry and Gay. Heck we are 1 win apart from 3rd worst in the league... it's pretty brutal. So how do you prepare this team to start winning consistently, but also have some flexibility in the payroll to continue to get better (Indiana model with David West)?

If Masai was able to pull a rabbit out of his hat and was able to swap Gay/Lowry for Horford and Rondo, and also keep his draft picks I'd be happy.. but that's unrealistic. There is a more likely scenario of MU being able to move Gay/Lowry for expiring contracts, prospects and picks. And that move will probably hurt their chances this season but they are hurting anyway. Then next season MU will have more flexibility where he can make trades (DD, Amir, some of the prospects) to get an established all-star type vet that can work within their system. That vet with the prospects they get via trade/draft can possibly help TL/MU/Drake to convince notable free agents to sign here. It may not work but they would still have picks/prospects and those are very valuable commodities in the new CBA.

Cleveland and Charlotte keep being cited as poorly run teams after tanking. But Cleveland and Charlotte can easily get cap space back.. they have prospects, large expiring contracts (or in Cleveland's case Bynum's buyout) and additional picks that they can use to get better immediately. For example if Cleveland wanted to make an offer for Love (and Minnesota is borderline .500 again) they have the assets to make it happen. You just need a GM that knows how to evaluate talent and MU is actually really good at it.

[mcHAPPY]

I'm probably getting a bit confused too, but I'm questioning even if tanking this year is going to be successful starting point and the risk/reward of doing that, considering: (1) history of tank teams like Cleveland, Cats, etc.., (2) the draft record of even respected GMs, (3) the success of teams actually trying to tank this year, (4) Dwane Casey ... And even if we pick the right player, how fast is it really going to be, anyway? And how sustainable? Masai himself, even alludes to the 'karma' of teams that intentionally try to do it.

Are there other ways to turnaround a franchise faster that don't involve consciously trying to position yourself as low as possible and damaging the other assets on your roster? Personally I lean towards: (a) changing the coach, (b) internal player development & (c) trading for other teams picks over tanking for your own pick. After looking at all the examples and great arguments here, I'm starting to think that tanking for your own pick is really a last resort, desperation type of move. Raps are bad, but I'm not sure we're all the way to pathetic, are we?

You make good and valid points, in my opinion.

But here is the reality: the Raptors are awful.

They are currently tied for 7th worst record in the league based on win percentage and when tied for wins they are 3rd worst after 18 games.

This team has a lower ceiling than I thought possible which was .500 and a 7/8 seed.

So I don't think the Raptors need to 'tank' because they are already a bad team. The point of tanking is to intentionally be bad - well, the Raptors are already bad.

What the Raptors need to do now is delay getting better. Considering they have very few tradeable assets, drafts take place once per year, and they have no cap space should Gay pick up his option, delaying improvement is not a difficult task either.