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Mackenzie on Raptors: DeRozan's losing battle

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  • #16
    Much respect to DD and his loyalty to toronto. But if we can trade DD for a really good 4 or trade him and then sign a good 4 during FA, I'd do it within a heartbeat. As much as I like him, he's not going to be an all star caliber player. He's a hard worker but he doesn't have that intensity or confidence you see guys like wade have, some people are just born with it. If wade's an unfair comparison, then look at players like Paul George and Kemba. They stay aggressive and attack, whereas we've seen DD become passive and sometimes lost when calls don't go his way or if there's a real physical defender on him.

    We can put Fields in at the 2 spot and we'll be fine. Fields might not be as good offensively (who knows, he might regain the 3pt stroke he had in his rookie year) but he makes up for it in ball IQ, playmaking, rebounding and defense.

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    • #17
      Pong wrote: View Post
      Much respect to DD and his loyalty to toronto. But if we can trade DD for a really good 4 or trade him and then sign a good 4 during FA, I'd do it within a heartbeat. As much as I like him, he's not going to be an all star caliber player. He's a hard worker but he doesn't have that intensity or confidence you see guys like wade have, some people are just born with it. If wade's an unfair comparison, then look at players like Paul George and Kemba. They stay aggressive and attack, whereas we've seen DD become passive and sometimes lost when calls don't go his way or if there's a real physical defender on him.

      We can put Fields in at the 2 spot and we'll be fine. Fields might not be as good offensively (who knows, he might regain the 3pt stroke he had in his rookie year) but he makes up for it in ball IQ, playmaking, rebounding and defense.
      I agree DD probably doesn't have all star appearances in his future, but starting Fields is a massive downgrade at SG, barring a shooting stroke miracle over the summer. We definitely wouldn't be fine, as you suggest. We'd be worse, a lot worse. If DD goes we have to bring in a new starting SG because no one else on the roster is good enough right now (maybe Ross in a few years).

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      • #18
        Starting Fields would only create more struggles for Gay on the wing Fields is next to useless unless under the rim and having some lanes he can run for a backdoor cut... hes a good sub play some spot minutes sure but starting? no way in hell theres a reason NY never played him he was the 9th guy in their rotation, cause after the 30 games he played well his performance started to crash and burn. Great guy though.

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        • #19
          Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
          Starting Fields would only create more struggles for Gay on the wing Fields is next to useless unless under the rim and having some lanes he can run for a backdoor cut... hes a good sub play some spot minutes sure but starting? no way in hell theres a reason NY never played him he was the 9th guy in their rotation, cause after the 30 games he played well his performance started to crash and burn. Great guy though.
          He started 143 out of a possible 148 games with the Knicks, what are you saying....
          Twitter - @thekid_it

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          • #20
            Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
            Starting Fields would only create more struggles for Gay on the wing Fields is next to useless unless under the rim and having some lanes he can run for a backdoor cut... hes a good sub play some spot minutes sure but starting? no way in hell theres a reason NY never played him he was the 9th guy in their rotation, cause after the 30 games he played well his performance started to crash and burn. Great guy though.
            We all know you love DeRozan and hate Fields (especially any avenue where DeRozan is traded away and Fields becomes the starting SG), but I think you're reaching a little on this post. Yes Fields had his struggles (mainly a result of injury), but he is far from useless. Plus your claims are way off-base, as isaacthompson pointed out.

            You have to at least be open to considering other options - remember the scenario laid out had DeRozan being traded for an upgraded PF which, when combined with Lowry picking up more slack and Valanciunas continuing to develop his offensive game, would theoretically be more than capable of picking up the scoring slack (not to mention an improved Fields who's recovered from injury).

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            • #21
              You guys better not start trolling my friend with little things called facts!

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              • #22
                Primer wrote: View Post
                I agree DD probably doesn't have all star appearances in his future, but starting Fields is a massive downgrade at SG, barring a shooting stroke miracle over the summer. We definitely wouldn't be fine, as you suggest. We'd be worse, a lot worse. If DD goes we have to bring in a new starting SG because no one else on the roster is good enough right now (maybe Ross in a few years).
                But the thing is I'm saying having Fields at the starting 2 will be fine if we are putting in a really good 4 in return for losing DD. That way we'll finally have a balanced inside-out offense as opposed to wing dominated offense. Gay wouldn't have to carry the offense every night either.

                Fields isn't a massive downgrade from DD because he is a better rebounder, defender and playmaker than DD. Sure Fields might not put up the same amount of points as him, but we have lowry, JV, gay and our hypothetical 4 to make up for it. In his rookie year, Fields had 49% FG% and 39% 3PT%. Not saying he'll regain that same touch, but now that he's healthy there's hope that he can improve his horrendous percentages from this and last year.

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                • #23
                  Pong wrote: View Post
                  But the thing is I'm saying having Fields at the starting 2 will be fine if we are putting in a really good 4 in return for losing DD. That way we'll finally have a balanced inside-out offense as opposed to wing dominated offense. Gay wouldn't have to carry the offense every night either.

                  Fields isn't a massive downgrade from DD because he is a better rebounder, defender and playmaker than DD. Sure Fields might not put up the same amount of points as him, but we have lowry, JV, gay and our hypothetical 4 to make up for it. In his rookie year, Fields had 49% FG% and 39% 3PT%. Not saying he'll regain that same touch, but now that he's healthy there's hope that he can improve his horrendous percentages from this and last year.
                  I agree with you.

                  In addition to a more offensive-minded starting PF and an improved Valanciunas, I also think that Lowry could be relied upon to score more, which would allow him to play more to his natural strengths. That's 3 players able to pickup the scoring that will be lost with DeRozan, without even relying on a healthy/improved Fields to contribute more himself.

                  Furthermore, using an upgraded PF to draw double-teams and begin ball movement - whether to a cutter, to a guy outside for an open 3 or to a guy outside to start swinging the ball around the perimeter - can only help this otherwise stagnant/iso-oriented offense. Better ball movement will open the court for dribble-penetration (Gay/Lowry) for baskets and/or drive-and-kicks, more open looks (both 3pt shots and from guys being lost as a result of defenses rotating).

                  Nobody is looking to trade away DeRozan, or dump DeRozan, or giveup on DeRozan... IF DeRozan were to be traded, every scenario I've seen mentioned is to land a stud starting PF (ie: Love, Millsap, possibly Gasol, or even JSmoove). Using a good young player to land a young all-star is all about asset/roster management; trading from strength/depth (wings) to address a weakness (starting PF, while Johnson becoming 3rd big would greatly improve 2nd unit too, so win-win).

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                  • #24
                    CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                    I agree with you.

                    In addition to a more offensive-minded starting PF and an improved Valanciunas, I also think that Lowry could be relied upon to score more, which would allow him to play more to his natural strengths. That's 3 players able to pickup the scoring that will be lost with DeRozan, without even relying on a healthy/improved Fields to contribute more himself.

                    Furthermore, using an upgraded PF to draw double-teams and begin ball movement - whether to a cutter, to a guy outside for an open 3 or to a guy outside to start swinging the ball around the perimeter - can only help this otherwise stagnant/iso-oriented offense. Better ball movement will open the court for dribble-penetration (Gay/Lowry) for baskets and/or drive-and-kicks, more open looks (both 3pt shots and from guys being lost as a result of defenses rotating).

                    Nobody is looking to trade away DeRozan, or dump DeRozan, or giveup on DeRozan... IF DeRozan were to be traded, every scenario I've seen mentioned is to land a stud starting PF (ie: Love, Millsap, possibly Gasol, or even JSmoove). Using a good young player to land a young all-star is all about asset/roster management; trading from strength/depth (wings) to address a weakness (starting PF, while Johnson becoming 3rd big would greatly improve 2nd unit too, so win-win).
                    Exactly. I'm not trashing derozan- he's been great on the raps, but if we can get a solid 4 in return we'll have a solid starting 5 capable of making more than just 7/8th seed. Derozan's close to his peak in value at this point. He's shown how well he can score and get to the line, AND at the same time display additional potential in developing a 3pt shot and some playmaking abilities. I'm not entirely sure how salaries will work out, but if we can trade derozan for 1st round pick(s) and then sign Millsap as a UFA we'd be set.

                    Anyway sorry for going way off topic here lol

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                    • #25
                      CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                      I agree with you.

                      In addition to a more offensive-minded starting PF and an improved Valanciunas, I also think that Lowry could be relied upon to score more, which would allow him to play more to his natural strengths. That's 3 players able to pickup the scoring that will be lost with DeRozan, without even relying on a healthy/improved Fields to contribute more himself.

                      Furthermore, using an upgraded PF to draw double-teams and begin ball movement - whether to a cutter, to a guy outside for an open 3 or to a guy outside to start swinging the ball around the perimeter - can only help this otherwise stagnant/iso-oriented offense. Better ball movement will open the court for dribble-penetration (Gay/Lowry) for baskets and/or drive-and-kicks, more open looks (both 3pt shots and from guys being lost as a result of defenses rotating).

                      Nobody is looking to trade away DeRozan, or dump DeRozan, or giveup on DeRozan... IF DeRozan were to be traded, every scenario I've seen mentioned is to land a stud starting PF (ie: Love, Millsap, possibly Gasol, or even JSmoove). Using a good young player to land a young all-star is all about asset/roster management; trading from strength/depth (wings) to address a weakness (starting PF, while Johnson becoming 3rd big would greatly improve 2nd unit too, so win-win).
                      The gap from DD to Fields (assuming Fields is the player of the past 2 years, which is more realistic than assuming he'll play like his rookie year again), is much bigger than the gap from Amir to Milsap or Boozer (2 most realistic guys to get at PF). That's what a lot of people are ignoring. We have a perfectly acceptable starting PF on the roster right now, who plays great with our other starters (SI article), and who undeniably deserves over 30 minutes a night. You can't say that about Fields at all. The guy deserves 5-10 min a game at best, and I think his presence makes it easy to double Rudy on every offensive possession. So we have his offensive incompetence compounded by the fact the other team doesn't need to defend him unless he's under the basket, meaning everyone else receives more attention.
                      Sure, no team is going to double Amir, but they sure as shit can't leave him open like they can Fields. Also, I'm not sure teams would be doubling Milsap if he was on the Raps. I really don't see him as that kind of offensive talent. He's more a jack of all trades, master of none. If we get Gasol, sure, he'll pull double teams. But then we probably sent out DD and Ross, so we're thin as hell at wing. I just don't see starting PF as such a great need that DD becomes expendable to get one, because the depth behind DD doesn't contain anyone who should be starting. Maybe if we can move Bargs for a starting caliber SG, but looking around the league I don't see any trade possibilities on that front.
                      Last edited by Primer; Wed May 8, 2013, 02:31 AM.

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                      • #26
                        Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
                        Starting Fields would only create more struggles for Gay on the wing Fields is next to useless unless under the rim and having some lanes he can run for a backdoor cut... hes a good sub play some spot minutes sure but starting? no way in hell theres a reason NY never played him he was the 9th guy in their rotation, cause after the 30 games he played well his performance started to crash and burn. Great guy though.
                        Dude do you even watch the nba? Fields started like every game for NYC...

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                        • #27
                          Primer wrote: View Post
                          The gap from DD to Fields (assuming DD is the player of the past 2 years, which is more realistic than assuming he'll play like his rookie year again), is much bigger than the gap from Amir to Milsap or Boozer (2 most realistic guys to get at PF). That's what a lot of people are ignoring. We have a perfectly acceptable starting PF on the roster right now, who plays great with our other starters (SI article), and who undeniably deserves over 30 minutes a night. You can't say that about Fields at all. The guy deserves 5-10 min a game at best, and I think his presence makes it easy to double Rudy on every offensive possession. So we have his offensive incompetence compounded by the fact the other team doesn't need to defend him unless he's under the basket, meaning everyone else receives more attention.
                          Sure, no team is going to double Amir, but they sure as shit can't leave him open like they can Fields. Also, I'm not sure teams would be doubling Milsap if he was on the Raps. I really don't see him as that kind of offensive talent. He's more a jack of all trades, master of none. If we get Gasol, sure, he'll pull double teams. But then we probably sent out DD and Ross, so we're thin as hell at wing. I just don't see starting PF as such a great need that DD becomes expendable to get one, because the depth behind DD doesn't contain anyone who should be starting. Maybe if we can move Bargs for a starting caliber SG, but looking around the league I don't see any trade possibilities on that front.
                          I could be wrong, but since his surgery Landry has shown improvements in his shooting (mid range). And i don't think Landry or Lowry's game is so bad that they'll be doubling rudy on every single play.
                          *
                          As good and hard working as Amir is, we'll never be a legit playoff team without a true post player. Our offense is screwed when our wings' shots aren't hitting, and we've seen this throughout the season.

                          This is a real stretch, but if we can relieve our salary situation (trading dd and bargs) would we have enough to sign Al Jefferson? He was technically a 4 and only end up playing C for Jazz because of their front court depth. He'll definitely command double teams in the post. But obviously chances of him coming here is zero lol.
                          Last edited by Pong; Thu Apr 25, 2013, 07:23 PM.

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                          • #28
                            Pong wrote: View Post
                            I could be wrong, but since his surgery Landry has shown improvements in his shooting (mid range). And i don't think Landry or Lowry's game is so bad that they'll be doubling rudy on every single play.
                            *
                            As good and hard working as Amir is, we'll never be a legit playoff team without a true post player. Our offense is screwed when our wings' shots aren't hitting, and we've seen this throughout the season.

                            This is a real stretch, but if we can relieve our salary situation (trading dd and bargs) would we have enough to sign Al Jefferson? He was technically a 4 and only end up playing C for Jazz because of their front court depth. He'll definitely command double teams in the post. But obviously chances of him coming here is zero lol.
                            I think Al Jefferson ends up in Atlanta after ATL strikes out on Howard. They have the cap space and are a much more attractive situation.

                            Also, not sure how Amir isn't a true post player. He takes 68% of his shots less than 8ft from the basket. He makes 64% of those attempts. If anything you're adding a guy like Millsap to spread the floor more since he's comfortable shooting out to 19 ft.
                            Last edited by Primer; Thu Apr 25, 2013, 07:39 PM.

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                            • #29
                              Primer wrote: View Post
                              I think Al Jefferson ends up in Atlanta after ATL strikes out on Howard. They have the cap space and are a much more attractive situation.
                              How are they attractive? They are the very definition of mediocre. I know our team isn't any better but we still have loads more potential than Atlanta does.

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                              • #30
                                NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
                                How are they attractive? They are the very definition of mediocre. I know our team isn't any better but we still have loads more potential than Atlanta does.
                                Look closer. The only contracts they have going into next season are great value. Horford (a multi-time All Star in his prime) at $12M, Lou Williams at $5M, and their rookie Jenkins at $1M. That's $40M+ in cap space. They also have Jeff Teague as a RFA so they can bring him back easily and for a decent price. They have bird rights on Josh Smith so he can easily be dealt in a S&T to bring back some more talent, or just resigned if Atlanta chooses to go that route. They also have 2 1st round picks this year to help facilitate any trades they want to make, or just to add more cheap talent. If they wanted, Atlanta could sign Al Jefferson and another player, before going over the cap to resign Smith and Teague. At the minimum, they can easily put together this roster, which is a lot better than the Raps in my opinion.

                                PG: Teague
                                SG: Williams, Jenkins
                                SF: Smith
                                PF: Horford
                                C: Jefferson

                                They could also easily bring back Korver at SF if they choose to move Smith. Basically, they have excellent pieces of great contracts, plus tons of cap space, plus 2 first round picks, plus Atlanta is a desirable city for the average NBA player. Hawks have a much more attractive situation than the Raps.

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