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The * to Masai's proclamation of, "We will not be caught in no man's land."

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  • #46
    Employee wrote: View Post
    Draft Express was saying the same on Twitter a week or two ago. Outside the top 6 or 7 it's not that spectacular.

    On something kind of unrelated, right now 3 Canadians are predicted to go in the 1st round, with a couple more in the 2nd. Pretty crazy stuff!
    They are saying everybody except Embiid, actually.

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    • #47
      What evidence is there that we are stuck in no mans land anyways? We have a young team that is better than it was last year and is improving. Does anyone actually think that this team, as is, would regress next season? I don't. All I see is upside! We have no where to go but up, and I don't see a single reason to suspect we need to plummet for ping pong balls in order to become contenders.

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      • #48
        JawsGT wrote: View Post
        What evidence is there that we are stuck in no mans land anyways? We have a young team that is better than it was last year and is improving. Does anyone actually think that this team, as is, would regress next season? I don't. All I see is upside! We have no where to go but up, and I don't see a single reason to suspect we need to plummet for ping pong balls in order to become contenders.
        In order to keep this core together, Lowry, Patterson, Hansborough and Vasquez would need to be re-signed, in addition to adding up to 3 draft picks (TOR 1st, SAC 2nd, OKC 2nd). I suppose Patterson/Hansborough or Vasquez could potentially be let go, if they are replaced by the 1st round pick. However, even re-signing a Lowry and one of the other 3 would mean this team is once again capped-out, with organic growth as the only means of improvement.

        There are many teams in the EC that will likely improve next season, due to a combination of injuries this season, their prospects improving, impact draft picks being added and free agents being added. Even if they don't all pan out, all it would likely take is for a couple teams to take significant steps forward, for Toronto to be out of the playoff picture.

        Even today, if Brooklyn were to win 2 in a row and Toronto lose 2 in a row (starting with their head-to-head matchup tonight), Toronto would be sitting in 7th place in the EC. They'd have several hungry teams behind them, including Charlotte, NY and Cleveland. It's not like Toronto is running away with the division anymore, so watching teams improve around them by adding talent, could definitely jeopardize Toronto's playoff chances next year, if Toronto goes with the same core.

        I'm not saying that means Toronto should tank, but some degree of rebuild/retool is very likely necessary to compete for the EC playoffs next season, let alone becoming a legitimate perennial contender (where 2nd round is the floor for a good season, as opposed to the ceiling).

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        • #49
          CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
          In order to keep this core together, Lowry, Patterson, Hansborough and Vasquez would need to be re-signed, in addition to adding up to 3 draft picks (TOR 1st, SAC 2nd, OKC 2nd). I suppose Patterson/Hansborough or Vasquez could potentially be let go, if they are replaced by the 1st round pick. However, even re-signing a Lowry and one of the other 3 would mean this team is once again capped-out, with organic growth as the only means of improvement.

          There are many teams in the EC that will likely improve next season, due to a combination of injuries this season, their prospects improving, impact draft picks being added and free agents being added. Even if they don't all pan out, all it would likely take is for a couple teams to take significant steps forward, for Toronto to be out of the playoff picture.

          Even today, if Brooklyn were to win 2 in a row and Toronto lose 2 in a row (starting with their head-to-head matchup tonight), Toronto would be sitting in 7th place in the EC. They'd have several hungry teams behind them, including Charlotte, NY and Cleveland. It's not like Toronto is running away with the division anymore, so watching teams improve around them by adding talent, could definitely jeopardize Toronto's playoff chances next year, if Toronto goes with the same core.

          I'm not saying that means Toronto should tank, but some degree of rebuild/retool is very likely necessary to compete for the EC playoffs next season, let alone becoming a legitimate perennial contender (where 2nd round is the floor for a good season, as opposed to the ceiling).
          Bold: I totally agree, and I'm not suggesting that we should roll ahead with this roster as is either. I'm just suggesting that if we did come into next season with the same roster, we would likely be better than we are now. There is room here to grow, and some roster stability can certainly help that. Even if all we bank on is some improvement from JV and TRoss, then we are still in a good position going forward, and I would argue still better than most in the EC. Anyways, some change will certainly be necessary to take us to the promised land, but there really isn't any reason to suspect we can't there going forward with the current roster. We have some really good pieces here and plenty to build on.

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          • #50
            JawsGT wrote: View Post
            Bold: I totally agree, and I'm not suggesting that we should roll ahead with this roster as is either. I'm just suggesting that if we did come into next season with the same roster, we would likely be better than we are now. There is room here to grow, and some roster stability can certainly help that. Even if all we bank on is some improvement from JV and TRoss, then we are still in a good position going forward, and I would argue still better than most in the EC. Anyways, some change will certainly be necessary to take us to the promised land, but there really isn't any reason to suspect we can't there going forward with the current roster. We have some really good pieces here and plenty to build on.
            That is a pretty big if.

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            • #51
              "No man's land" is very subjective. One might say that being in the 7 - 11 range is no man's land while the next person might claim that a 2nd rounder ceiling is no man's land. I'd argue that if you compare last year's situation to where we are now, we have made significant strides in roster flexibility while actually improving on the on-court performance.

              We know Masai will trade absolutely anyone if it makes the team better. His patient approach in terms of evaluating the 'trade market' combined with his keen eye for identifying USEFUL talent is what makes him the reigning GM of the year. That is why I'm not concerned too much with our "ceiling" this year.

              Based on what I have seen so far, we have DeMar DeRozan (24 years old) showing improvements in other parts of his game (playmaking, maturity & IQ). We have Jonas Valanciunas (21 years old) & Terrence Ross (22 years old) starting. Both have potential to be game changers in the future -- locked into rookie contracts for 2 more years. These are 3 players -- relatively young -- but are key components of our team.

              We are winning & developing talent at the same time. We have different options movng forward. We have Fields' & Hayes' contracts expiring @ the end of next season. We have young 'prospects/fillers' @ the end of the bench on non-guaranteed contacts. These are all good things for our franchise.

              I believe the goal is to be in the mix for contention in time for the 2016 All-Star game. A lot of things can happen & you can bet that a lot of changes will take place -- roster wise. We have the foundation for winning set up & led by Lieweke, Ujiri & the Boss Crew (Rogers, Bell, Mr. Larry). I don't get why there's so much skepticism surrounding the franchise.

              There are so many ways to build a contender & it's a mixture of good free agent acquisitions, trades, draft picks & internal development. Lieweke gives me hope that we can be real players in free agency. Ujiri has shown he has the Midas Touch when it comes to trades. You can find talent in the draft regardless of position (as long as you have a good scouting team) & internal development takes time -- via accountability, constant skill development & promotion in terms of roles.

              We haven't even had a single draft pick under Ujiri, we haven't signed anyone significant -- yet we find ourselves in the playoff mix. We are in a good position moving forward, I'd say.

              Personally, I'm really enjoying cheering for this team given that they are playing meaningful games halfway through the season. Next year is next year & the year after that is the year after that. I'm confident that this management team will not max out its options unless we are ready to contend -- like seriously contend.
              “I don’t create controversies. They’re there long before I open my mouth. I just bring them to your attention.”

              -- Charles Barkley

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              • #52
                KeonClark wrote: View Post
                LOL, fans are OBSESSED with the need for Masai to lay out his plan for you, step by step. He's not a politician, he doesn't need to lay out his plans or make campaign promises.

                The internet/twitter generation has made fans so impatient, demanding instant gratification and information.
                This. x1000.

                And even Masai can't possibly know what his plans are, given his track record for being opportunistic. Like what's MU supposed to say... "uh, my plan is to wait in the weeds until James Dolan or Mikhail Prokhorov makes one of their typically desperate bonehead moves."

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                • #53
                  golden wrote: View Post
                  This. x1000.

                  And even Masai can't possibly know what his plans are, given his track record for being opportunistic. Like what's MU supposed to say... "uh, my plan is to wait in the weeds until James Dolan or Mikhail Prokhorov makes one of their typically desperate bonehead moves."
                  hahahaahh so true
                  "Stop eating your sushi."
                  "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                  "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                  - Jack Armstrong

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                  • #54
                    A lot depends on re-signing Kyle. But since this is his team I think he will stay all things being equal(you can't put a price on being "the guy", respected and valued by teammates and management alike). Kyle is a PG of a championship team. All championship teams also need a guy like DD who can score while not killing you on D. If JV continues to look like the real deal then you have 3/5 of a championship looking team. If you have those pieces locked down going forward there is a lot of room to see what else you have/need to contend but dominant post and guard play along with a proven scorer is a good core to build on and definitely not no-mans land.

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                    • #55
                      Matt52 wrote: View Post
                      That is a pretty big if.
                      And the draft isn't? Seriously, some stability in the roster and coaching staff, better role definition and for an entire season, with a likely improved JV and TRoss, no way this team regresses. Demar has played with more teammates than any other player out of his draft class. This is the first taste of winning for many of these guys, no way they take a step back next season.

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                      • #56
                        JawsGT wrote: View Post
                        And the draft isn't? Seriously, some stability in the roster and coaching staff, better role definition and for an entire season, with a likely improved JV and TRoss, no way this team regresses. Demar has played with more teammates than any other player out of his draft class. This is the first taste of winning for many of these guys, no way they take a step back next season.
                        Who said the draft wasn't a risk? The higher end of the draft has the greatest probabilities of success.

                        As for regression, I'm sure the 2007 Raptors thought the same. The 2009 Raptors probably thought the same sitting 5th at AS weekend.

                        The proclamations of "no way" they regress also place the Raptors in a vacuum. Other teams will be healthy, other teams will make trades and free agent signings, and other teams youth will improve. That all goes for the Raptors as well but who is to say the other teams changes do not have more of an impact?

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                        • #57
                          Matt52 wrote: View Post
                          Who said the draft wasn't a risk? The higher end of the draft has the greatest probabilities of success.

                          As for regression, I'm sure the 2007 Raptors thought the same. The 2009 Raptors probably thought the same sitting 5th at AS weekend.

                          The proclamations of "no way" they regress also place the Raptors in a vacuum. Other teams will be healthy, other teams will make trades and free agent signings, and other teams youth will improve. That all goes for the Raptors as well but who is to say the other teams changes do not have more of an impact?
                          The draft is as much an 'if' as the Raptors being better next season. Plus, then you have another 2-3 seasons just to get to the point we are now. And I'm not buying the vacuum argument. Lots of teams will supposedly get better, just like they were supposed to this past offseason. But the one thing the Raps can rely on to keep them around is their defense. As good as any particular player has been, it's the collective effort defensively that keeps them competitive. And you absolutely have to have that in the Eastern Conference. As long as the Raptors keep banging defensively they will have a chance. We get a little better on offense and we will be that much harder to deal with.

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                          • #58
                            JawsGT wrote: View Post
                            The draft is as much an 'if' as the Raptors being better next season. Plus, then you have another 2-3 seasons just to get to the point we are now. And I'm not buying the vacuum argument. Lots of teams will supposedly get better, just like they were supposed to this past offseason. But the one thing the Raps can rely on to keep them around is their defense. As good as any particular player has been, it's the collective effort defensively that keeps them competitive. And you absolutely have to have that in the Eastern Conference. As long as the Raptors keep banging defensively they will have a chance. We get a little better on offense and we will be that much harder to deal with.
                            How can you validate that point?

                            Raps defense since January 12th has been atrocious: 106 DefRtg.

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                            • #59
                              Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              How can you validate that point?

                              Raps defense since January 12th has been atrocious: 106 DefRtg.
                              Cherry picking stats. Everybody talks about this "atrocious" January and falling back to Earth, but we're 9-6 in January (with losses to MIA, IND, LAC)

                              We're 6-4 since that arbitrary day you listed as Jan 12. We are the only team to beat Brooklyn in 2014 (twice).

                              Have the Raptors come back down to Earth, or are they still a winning program with some chinks in the armour, what most people thought they had become in the first place? It's still a helluva lot better than it was 2 months ago, need I remind you.
                              9 time first team all-RR, First Ballot Hall of Forum

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                              • #60
                                Matt52 wrote: View Post
                                I have no patience for a team that is still very much a giant question mark.

                                The time frame is opinion. No one truly knows. Sure, point to OKC, however, they started with Johan Petro as their young prospect. Raps already have two quality pieces in JV and Ross. Maybe I'm naive but I also believe Toronto will have ability to lure meaningful free agent(s) and an ownership group willing to pay to keep the team together when it comes time to pay them.


                                One perspective is 3 years of losing. Another perspective would be watching a team built from the ground up. I have all the patience in the world (or 246 games) to watch a team built. It is this mediocrity I can't stand.
                                Few things:

                                1. Again, there is massive cognitive dissonance here. A Raps team with no Lowry, no Derozan and Andrew Wiggins (for example) has way, way more question marks than the current squad.

                                2. If you believe the Raps already have two good young players and the ability to lure meaningful free agents, then why in the world would you advocate a tank? Wouldn't it simply make far more sense to try and attract a premier free agent from a position of strength?

                                3. How are the current Raps mediocre? They are 17-9 since the Gay deal. That projects to a 50-win season.

                                This team has flaws and, no, it doesn't have a Lebron James. But, again, this roster was an absolute mess only 6 months ago. In the interim, the organization has shed two horrible contracts and anchor-weight players, re-made its entire front office and coaching staff, completely gutted its bench, and starts two enormously important players who are under 22 - and they have done all this while dramatically improving as a ball club.

                                You are starting to remind me of the guy that pops up on the front page of the Globe and Mail every time the market tanks, "Genius Analyst Predicted Bear Market". What they don't tell you is that they guy has been predicting a bear market every day for 4 years and is only finally right today. So, yeah, two years from now you might be right that 2013-14 was a bad year for the organization but, in the meantime, you've missed out on any success in the interim.

                                Can't we acknowledge all the good that has been here in such a short time?

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