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The * to Masai's proclamation of, "We will not be caught in no man's land."

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  • #91
    salmon wrote: View Post
    That post deserves a bump! With the very entertaining basketball, while winning, that this team is producing, coupled with the passion and commitment we're seeing from the whole team, It's beyond me that some "fans" of the team insist on doing all they can to tear the team down, never mind continue to advocate blowing it up for a wish and a prayer. It blows me away. Shit, even a toddler would be able to see that this team, with this PG, and with this coach (great call on that inbound defense last night!!!), and with so much youth, has something special going on. Must suck to not be able to enjoy it (the occasional lip service doesn't count).
    With Lowry's uncertainty, there's worry that this team's current ways are unsustainable. That's where these other "fans" are coming from.

    Comment


    • #92
      One of the reasons I struggle with this question is that the most high-probability path of contending, and the worst-case scenario, both come from the same strategy.

      If you're successful in retaining Lowry on a reasonable contract, then you're potentially one star player away from being a legit contender, assuming decent internal development by all the young players. And while there's nearly zero chance of adding that player via free agency this summer, there's a decent chance of acquiring that player via 2015 free agency (especially if we're a proven winner with young, intact core and lots of cap space). That's the most high-probability path to contending, when you consider that trading Lowry likely puts you two star players away from being a contending team.

      Then there's the worst case scenario: Lowry walking in the offseason, and Toronto being left with a low draft pick and nothing else to show for this year. I've been worrying about that worst case scenario ever since the Gay trade.

      However, recently I've thought myself into a little bit of zen philosophy: To reach a goal, weigh only the odds of success, not the consequences of failure. If the goal is truly a championship, then all outcomes that do not result in a championship-contending team are equally worst-case.

      Comment


      • #93
        Nilanka wrote: View Post
        With Lowry's uncertainty, there's worry that this team's current ways are unsustainable. That's where these other "fans" are coming from.
        Oh, I see that. What I don't get, is why people CHOOSE to worry about speculation that they have no control over, while doing everything possible to not acknowledge all the good that's happening. It seems such a waste of time to me, especially in regards to a choice of entertainment. In my experience, worry does nothing to change tomorrow for the better, but simply cripples enjoyment of today. Why some feel the need to repeatedly share such worries, effectively dragging others down into that darkness, even as there's so much to enjoy now, and so much promise in the youth on this team, is beyond me.

        Now, I understand, and accept, that some don't give a damn what I understand or don't. However, that shouldn't prevent me from expressing such an opinion. With that stated, as slaw said in the post I responded to:

        " You (whoever that was) are starting to remind me of the guy that pops up on the front page of the Globe and Mail every time the market tanks, "Genius Analyst Predicted Bear Market". What they don't tell you is that they guy has been predicting a bear market every day for 4 years and is only finally right today. So, yeah, two years from now you might be right that 2013-14 was a bad year for the organization but, in the meantime, you've missed out on any success in the interim."

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        • #94
          salmon wrote: View Post
          Oh, I see that. What I don't get, is why people CHOOSE to worry about speculation that they have no control over, while doing everything possible to not acknowledge all the good that's happening. It seems such a waste of time to me, especially in regards to a choice of entertainment. In my experience, worry does nothing to change tomorrow for the better, but simply cripples enjoyment of today. Why some feel the need to repeatedly share such worries, effectively dragging others down into that darkness, even as there's so much to enjoy now, and so much promise in the youth on this team, is beyond me.

          Now, I understand, and accept, that some don't give a damn what I understand or don't. However, that shouldn't prevent me from expressing such an opinion. With that stated, as slaw said in the post I responded to:

          " You (whoever that was) are starting to remind me of the guy that pops up on the front page of the Globe and Mail every time the market tanks, "Genius Analyst Predicted Bear Market". What they don't tell you is that they guy has been predicting a bear market every day for 4 years and is only finally right today. So, yeah, two years from now you might be right that 2013-14 was a bad year for the organization but, in the meantime, you've missed out on any success in the interim."
          I don't worry about Lowry in the same way that I worry about about losing a job.

          Sometimes it's just fun to look at where the Raptors stand and where we're going in the future. Obviously no one on this forum 'controls' anything that happens with the raptors (except when I wear my raps hat on gameday, usually means a win).

          I find the whole process of debating with people with different opinions over where we stand as a franchise enjoyable. I don't debate to win or to convince anyone, I debate because it's fun, and sometimes I learn something.
          "Bruno?
          Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
          He's terrible."

          -Superjudge, 7/23

          Hope you're wrong.

          Comment


          • #95
            salmon wrote: View Post
            Oh, I see that. What I don't get, is why people CHOOSE to worry about speculation that they have no control over, while doing everything possible to not acknowledge all the good that's happening. It seems such a waste of time to me, especially in regards to a choice of entertainment. In my experience, worry does nothing to change tomorrow for the better, but simply cripples enjoyment of today. Why some feel the need to repeatedly share such worries, effectively dragging others down into that darkness, even as there's so much to enjoy now, and so much promise in the youth on this team, is beyond me.

            Now, I understand, and accept, that some don't give a damn what I understand or don't. However, that shouldn't prevent me from expressing such an opinion. With that stated, as slaw said in the post I responded to:

            " You (whoever that was) are starting to remind me of the guy that pops up on the front page of the Globe and Mail every time the market tanks, "Genius Analyst Predicted Bear Market". What they don't tell you is that they guy has been predicting a bear market every day for 4 years and is only finally right today. So, yeah, two years from now you might be right that 2013-14 was a bad year for the organization but, in the meantime, you've missed out on any success in the interim."
            Bold: Without us talking about it, there are no discussion boards. It's what we do to entertain ourselves/each other on here. What else would we do? Maybe there should be more positivity on here, I'll concede that.

            As far as the OP goes: I'm still inclined to get something for Lowry this year if he is indicating he's leaving. Another option I've grown fond of is to essentially get nothing for him. Enjoy the ride (and possible second round playoff appearance) this year, let him walk, and tank next year.

            Comment


            • #96
              thead wrote: View Post
              Hi Kevin! welcome to RR
              Thanks for the welcome thead, but my name's not Surely...or Kevin.
              If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

              Comment


              • #97
                salmon wrote: View Post
                In my experience, worry does nothing to change tomorrow for the better, but simply cripples enjoyment of today. Why some feel the need to repeatedly share such worries, effectively dragging others down into that darkness, even as there's so much to enjoy now, and so much promise in the youth on this team, is beyond me.
                Think of it this way:

                Some people enjoy living their lives paycheque to paycheque without a worry about what the future holds. "Yay! We're having fun! Live in the moment! Who cares about tomorrow!"

                Others prefer a more methodical approach and ask the question, "How much money do I have to save in order to retire?" Perhaps "worrying" was a poor choice of words. It's more like "preparing".

                It's a loose comparison to the topic at hand, I know. But I'm just pointing out the frame of mind of the fans who are thinking long-term. The decisions that Ujiri makes today, affects tomorrow.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Nilanka wrote: View Post
                  Think of it this way:

                  Some people enjoy living their lives paycheque to paycheque without a worry about what the future holds. "Yay! We're having fun! Live in the moment! Who cares about tomorrow!"

                  Others prefer a more methodical approach and ask the question, "How much money do I have to save in order to retire?" Perhaps "worrying" was a poor choice of words. It's more like "preparing".

                  It's a loose comparison to the topic at hand, I know. But I'm just pointing out the frame of mind of the fans who are thinking long-term. The decisions that Ujiri makes today, affects tomorrow.
                  Why can't you do both? Why can't you have some success this year while at the same time building for tomorrow's success? It's not an either or proposition and the two are not mutually exclusive. People are so caught up in the "tanking vs. sacrifice the future to win now" choice. Those aren't the only options.

                  The team has a good GM and a solid front office. It has new ownership that appears to be willing to spend money. It has roster and cap flexibility. It has three good young players. Perhaps, and let me just throw this out there, the team can have some success this year and next while making the necessary additions to go from playoff team to contender. If you are prepared to accept the possibility that they could win the draft lottery, get he next Lebron James and win a championship 6 years later, surely you can contemplate other possibilities?

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    KeonClark wrote: View Post
                    Cherry picking stats. Everybody talks about this "atrocious" January and falling back to Earth, but we're 9-6 in January (with losses to MIA, IND, LAC)

                    We're 6-4 since that arbitrary day you listed as Jan 12. We are the only team to beat Brooklyn in 2014 (twice).

                    Have the Raptors come back down to Earth, or are they still a winning program with some chinks in the armour, what most people thought they had become in the first place? It's still a helluva lot better than it was 2 months ago, need I remind you.
                    That arbitrary day was when regression on defense started. It was a direct reply to the other poster who stated as long as the raptors are banging on defense all is good. Well they are no longer banging on defense. They are 5-4 over last 9 with 3 embarrassing losses and a defensive rating of 106.

                    Speaking of cherry picking stats why are you focusing only on Brooklyn in 2014? Why not mention Raptors are only team to lose to boston this year besides Washington in OT? Cs are 2-11. Or how about only team lakers have beat in 2014 are Toronto and Boston?

                    You can remind me all you like on where Raps were 2 months ago, I do recall though. However need I remind you where raptors were a year ago at start of gay trade, subsequent uptick, down tick, and end to last year? A lot of people proclaiming they were .500 team and with offseason and full training camp..... Yeah that didn't work out too well.

                    I'm not quite sure why so many are upset though. It is obvious tanking is out for this year. My tank is rusting on a beach in the sun. I'm all in on letting this year play out and I hope they do well in playoffs too. However to say there are no dangers lurking or this team is only going to get better beyond this season is rose coloured glasses at best and delusion at worst. The engine driving this team could very much walk away if he chooses. Considering no one here knows, I think 50/50 odds are reasonable. Which takes us back to original point of thread: ujiri has never given a time frame on his proclamation of not being stuck in no mans land.

                    Comment


                    • Nilanka wrote: View Post
                      Think of it this way:

                      Some people enjoy living their lives paycheque to paycheque without a worry about what the future holds. "Yay! We're having fun! Live in the moment! Who cares about tomorrow!"

                      Others prefer a more methodical approach and ask the question, "How much money do I have to save in order to retire?" Perhaps "worrying" was a poor choice of words. It's more like "preparing".

                      It's a loose comparison to the topic at hand, I know. But I'm just pointing out the frame of mind of the fans who are thinking long-term. The decisions that Ujiri makes today, affects tomorrow.
                      I think slaw already posted a great response to this, but if I could add something in direct response to your analogy:

                      IMO, the wisest approach is to balance between preparing for the future, while also doing some living today. One doesn't know what will happen tomorrow, so throwing all your eggs in an imagined future can leave you nothing while you have a chance to live.

                      And what's not to enjoy about today? We have a young up and coming core that are just beginning to learn to play together, yet are already producing some great basketball. Lowry 27, DD 24, JV 21, Ross 22, 2Pat 24, Amir 26. Whether they'll be a contender with that core, nobody knows, but Masai certainly has the pieces to work with if he has the opportunity to improve, to say nothing of having all future 1st rounders. In the meantime, there's a great deal to cheer about today. Today is fun, while we also have multiple youthful assets for the future. Seems like a heck of a balance to celebrate, imo.

                      Comment


                      • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                        A lot of noise made by Raptor fans and media of Masai's "No Man's Land" proclamation... this fan included.

                        The asterisk to that statement is he has never given a time frame.

                        Patience is one of Masai's trademark attributes.

                        Sadly it is not one for many fans - this one included. There are some patient fans out there.... and I'm sure you'll tell us who you are - lol, jokes.
                        So you are saying he meant to say "we won't be in no mans land.....3 years from now"?lol

                        That would be an intentional misleading of the fans. Masai and Lieweke made it very clear during the offseason and it was meant in the here and now. 7-11 is a death bed in the NBA.

                        If he did come back and say he didn't give a timeframe, I would personally feel the BC vibe creeping in again. Talking out of your mouth but ain't sayin' nuthin. Saying you want to 'contend' but really saying you are 'content'.

                        Comment


                        • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                          A lot of noise made by Raptor fans and media of Masai's "No Man's Land" proclamation... this fan included.

                          The asterisk to that statement is he has never given a time frame.

                          Patience is one of Masai's trademark attributes.

                          Sadly it is not one for many fans - this one included. There are some patient fans out there.... and I'm sure you'll tell us who you are - lol, jokes.
                          He didn't have to. MLSE did when they spent $100M on two soccer players.

                          The moment the talent becomes available, Leiweke will figure out how to get it here, and MLSE will bust out the cheque book. We're in no man's land right now, but we aren't stuck. We're waiting.
                          "Stop eating your sushi."
                          "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                          "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                          - Jack Armstrong

                          Comment


                          • slaw wrote: View Post
                            Few things:

                            1. Again, there is massive cognitive dissonance here. A Raps team with no Lowry, no Derozan and Andrew Wiggins (for example) has way, way more question marks than the current squad.

                            2. If you believe the Raps already have two good young players and the ability to lure meaningful free agents, then why in the world would you advocate a tank? Wouldn't it simply make far more sense to try and attract a premier free agent from a position of strength?

                            3. How are the current Raps mediocre? They are 17-9 since the Gay deal. That projects to a 50-win season.

                            This team has flaws and, no, it doesn't have a Lebron James. But, again, this roster was an absolute mess only 6 months ago. In the interim, the organization has shed two horrible contracts and anchor-weight players, re-made its entire front office and coaching staff, completely gutted its bench, and starts two enormously important players who are under 22 - and they have done all this while dramatically improving as a ball club.

                            You are starting to remind me of the guy that pops up on the front page of the Globe and Mail every time the market tanks, "Genius Analyst Predicted Bear Market". What they don't tell you is that they guy has been predicting a bear market every day for 4 years and is only finally right today. So, yeah, two years from now you might be right that 2013-14 was a bad year for the organization but, in the meantime, you've missed out on any success in the interim.

                            Can't we acknowledge all the good that has been here in such a short time?
                            1. I disagree on the question mark and you've clearly missed my point. My giant question mark is the direction of this team. Still undecided until trade deadline and then after this year is another giant question mark. The Raptors might be a team without Lowry without a say in the matter come July.

                            2. The Collective Bargaining Agreement. Raptors aren't going to be able to land major free agents loaded up on non-rookie deal players. And for the love of god, I'm not advocating tanking. I'm stating that Ujiri has never given a time frame on the no man's land comments and the higher end of the draft and all the advantages that go along with it and rookie deals greatly benefit a deep pocketed ownership group which the Raptors have.

                            3. Where did I say the Raptors are mediocre in this thread. I don't recall and there have been so many replies. The Raptors might be 17-9 since Gay trade however the 3 losses to Boston, LAL, and Charlotte and the manner in which they lost are extremely unnerving for me. Granted no team is going to go 82-0 but the hallmark of a good team is beating the teams you are "suppose" to. I could handle a loss in one of those 3 but all three? Scary, at least for me.


                            I agree with your third paragraph. Good moves have been made towards the future.


                            Your financial analogy is interesting. I would ask: is it better to be a cautious bear and recognize the dangers lurking in the markets OR is it better to be one of those people who buy in when they think the coast is clear and there is nowhere to go but up? Ironically 2007 was such a time for both Toronto and the markets. But sticking to the last 4 years, how many jumped in the first half of 2010 after a spectacular run off March 2009 only to GTFO/stopped out in the May 2010 Flash Crash? How many jumped in the first half of 2011 one year after Flash Crash thinking all safe only to have Euro Debt Crisis hit through the summer and in to October 2011? How many people finally got giddy last fall (a lot based on all-time record in margin debt) and jumped in only to see the markets give up 2 months of gains in the last week? Now I'm not saying people should be short or shouldn't be in the market. However there is a time to buy and a time to be cautious. I think caution is warranted in the markets and with the Raptors at this time. I'm not sure the Raptors trajectory but I feel confident the DOW will be at 25000 or more by end of 2015 in to 2016 however I currently don't have a dime long.... caution.


                            And yes, we can acknowledge a lot of good has been done: from new ownership to Leiweke to gutting front office to trading Gay/Bargnani to development of Ross/JV to emergence of Lowry to steady progression of DeRozan (outside of efficiency).

                            Comment


                            • salmon wrote: View Post
                              Hasn't all this been re-hashed many times? Did this Stein tweet give rise to a surge of tank related topics, yet again? The Sac trade vs Detroit rumour trade comparison, now this. Aren't you people tired of this yet?

                              It was all doom and gloom going into the season. The huge salary anchor is gone. KL and DD are playing like all-stars. T Ross just had a game for the ages. But the topic of the day is back to "no man's land"? I don't get it.
                              Why do you think that is fans want the team to build through the draft to add talent as being doom and gloom?

                              In a years time if this team is back in the lottery because they took the easy road again, what will you say? "well it was good while it lasted"

                              What's not to get? if they don't win the division they will most likely end up in the 7-11 spot which both Masai and Lieweke has indicated is no mans land.

                              Nowadays if you don't agree with the herd, you are subject to intense criticism, when really it should just be respected as a difference of opinion. I've seen this Raptor movie before and I'm not interested in a sequel.

                              Comment


                              • KeonClark wrote: View Post
                                LOL, fans are OBSESSED with the need for Masai to lay out his plan for you, step by step. He's not a politician, he doesn't need to lay out his plans or make campaign promises.

                                The internet/twitter generation has made fans so impatient, demanding instant gratification and information.
                                No, Bryan Colangelo did that. No Raptor GM is to be trusted blindly, period.

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