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  • #16
    Craiger wrote: View Post
    Wow I can't explain how much I disagree with that statement. He has been the one Raptor (along with Jose who is ofcourse no longer here) to stay focused game in and game out over the last 4 years. It probably explains why they've been the only two consistent ones over that same time period.

    The "mistakes" Amir makes are almost always out of effort, and not of the bonehead variety.

    I'll concede the obvious mouth peice incident - but one event in an 8 year career can be fairly overlooked.
    I disagree with this, and agree with Matt. Focus and effort are not the same things, and Amir's mistakes tend to come from a lack of the former. Perfect example, and something I don't know if he was even doing other years but I've noticed this year, but how many times after getting a rebound, steal, block, or even just inbounding, has Amir needlessly thrown a weak pass that is not only easily picked off, but that his teammate was surprised to get? Basically he still makes mistakes from pressing and not focusing, or slowing down, or whatever you want to call it. The most frequent kind of mistakes Amir makes, are thus boneheaded ones. This goes for his fouls too...Amir doesn't get a high foul total because he sacrifices himself defending the rim, it's because he still gets stupid reach in fouls and other weak calls he has no business getting because he'll get caught and "not give up" on a play, but end up making a worse play sometimes because of it. These are focus mistakes because he just needs to think about what he's doing. It's not like he makes loads of them, but making those really bad focus-oriented mistakes is still what he needs to work the most on.

    Look, I love Amir, and he is a very capable big who can start or come off the bench. He is still just a very good role player who is a complimentary piece. He has a limited skill set which he makes the most of, and a high motor and heart which are never bad for a team. People can talk about whether he's a starter or bench player, and love him all they want, but the reasons I never get too excited about him one way or the other are these:
    -If Amir is the best big on your team, your team is not likely to be that good.
    -If Amir left your team, it would possibly not even make any impact on the building/rebuilding happening.

    Do I want Amir on my team? Yes, as a 2nd/3rd big type who is on the roster mostly for hustle and D. I'm happy he has learned to perform to some degree in many other aspects as well. But he's not exactly top of the list of players a team needs to win/contend.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Sat Mar 16, 2013, 10:14 AM.

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    • #17
      Craiger wrote: View Post
      Wow I can't explain how much I disagree with that statement. He has been the one Raptor (along with Jose who is ofcourse no longer here) to stay focused game in and game out over the last 4 years. It probably explains why they've been the only two consistent ones over that same time period.

      The "mistakes" Amir makes are almost always out of effort, and not of the bonehead variety.

      I'll concede the obvious mouth peice incident - but one event in an 8 year career can be fairly overlooked.

      First of all let me say I've never questioned nor hopefully ever will question his effort.

      I'm talking about foot violations on inbounds, getting a rebound and nonchalantly drop off to a guard which is easily stolen, passes stolen on inbounds with no pressure, outletting to a guy in bad position or not expecting the ball.

      Last night, despite 21 rebounds, he had a few of those such mistakes.

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      • #18
        white men can't jump wrote: View Post
        I disagree with this, and agree with Matt. Focus and effort are not the same things, and Amir's mistakes tend to come from a lack of the former. Perfect example, and something I don't know if he was even doing other years but I've noticed this year, but how many times after getting a rebound, steal, block, or even just inbounding, has Amir needlessly thrown a weak pass that is not only easily picked off, but that his teammate was surprised to get? Basically he still makes mistakes from pressing and not focusing, or slowing down, or whatever you want to call it. The most frequent kind of mistakes Amir makes, are thus boneheaded ones. This goes for his fouls too...Amir doesn't get a high foul total because he sacrifices himself defending the rim, it's because he still gets stupid reach in fouls and other weak calls he has no business getting because he'll get caught and "not give up" on a play, but end up making a worse play sometimes because of it. These are focus mistakes because he just needs to think about what he's doing. It's not like he makes loads of them, but making those really bad focus-oriented mistakes is still what he needs to work the most on.

        Look, I love Amir, and he is a very capable big who can start or come off the bench. He is still just a very good role player who is a complimentary piece. He has a limited skill set which he makes the most of, and a high motor and heart which are never bad for a team. People can talk about whether he's a starter or bench player, and love him all they want, but the reasons I never get too excited about him one way or the other are these:
        -If Amir is the best big on your team, your team is not likely to be that good.
        -If Amir left your team, it would possibly not even make any impact on the building/rebuilding happening.

        Do I want Amir on my team? Yes, as a 2nd/3rd big type who is on the roster mostly for hustle and D. I'm happy he has learned to perform to some degree in many other aspects as well. But he's not exactly top of the list of players a team needs to win/contend.

        Man! I rarely post on here, but I'm sick of people hating on Amir. If Amir left, of course it would make an impact on the Raptors rebuild... How could it not? It makes an impact each game when he is substituted out.

        I know the guy doesn't have a polished offensive game, but that doesn't mean he isn't starter quality. You only need so many starters that can create or have plays called for them. It would be great if your bigs have some slicks post moves, but realistically, if you have solid perimeter players, you just need your bigs to be able to finish at the rim/close to the rim. That keeps defences honest on your post players. In that regard, Amir is actually one of the best on the team. He has the softest touch on the team, some of the best hands I've ever seen on a big (he catches some really crappy passes, even on the run), and is a great finisher.

        People overlook that being able to catch the ball is a basketball skill (anyone remember butter-finger bosh?). The ability to play with high intensity/effort the entire game is a skill (Jordan, Kobe). The ability to finish around the basket with a soft-touch is a skill.

        Yeah, he sometimes has awareness issues as people have mentioned (bad passes, etc.), but so do a lot of starters. When Gay dribbles into 2 defenders and tries to shoot over them without considering open teammates--I consider that an awareness problem. Yet people never doubt that he's a starter. How many turnovers did Rudy have against Charlotte? 6? How about Amir? Yet people bitch about his "boneheaded plays". If someone contributes points, rebounds, man defence, help defence, extra possessions (off. rebounds and diving for loose balls) while limiting his turnovers--screams positive benefit for the team.

        The best teams have their dominant scorers and players with roles surrounding them. Amir is an examplary role player. An extreme example to make my point is Dennis Rodman. The guy was an amazing man defender, the best rebounder in history... but left a lot to be desired in other areas. Amir--not as strong as a man/post defender, Amir is a better help defender by far, not as strong a rebounder, but is no slouch...better offensive rebounder.. a better passer, a better shooter, can finish the pick and roll so defence has to respect him in the key... I could go on.
        I mean, have you seen Rodman shoot free throws? The guy didn't give a crap. He just laughed and threw it at the rim... almost chest-passed it at the rim. Mutombo couldn't do anything but block and rebound... Those players do specific things better than Amir, but Amir is clearly the better all-around player... yet they are starters, and Amir can't be?

        It also depends on the make-up of your team and what it needs. If you have crap perimeter players, then hopefully you have a post player with a strong offensive game. For the Raptors, Amir is exactly what we need. Starter in my eyes. I respect that other people have opinions, but I can't help feel that questioning Amir is ludacris.

        **Edit** Amir had same number of turnovers as Gay last game... however Amir's season averages and career averages are still lower than Gay's.
        Last edited by NoFrillz; Sat Mar 16, 2013, 12:49 PM.

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        • #19
          NoFrillz wrote: View Post
          Man! I rarely post on here, but I'm sick of people hating on Amir. If Amir left, of course it would make an impact on the Raptors rebuild... How could it not? It makes an impact each game when he is substituted out.

          I know the guy doesn't have a polished offensive game, but that doesn't mean he isn't starter quality. You only need so many starters that can create or have plays called for them. It would be great if your bigs have some slicks post moves, but realistically, if you have solid perimeter players, you just need your bigs to be able to finish at the rim/close to the rim. That keeps defences honest on your post players. In that regard, Amir is actually one of the best on the team. He has the softest touch on the team, some of the best hands I've ever seen on a big (he catches some really crappy passes, even on the run), and is a great finisher.

          People overlook that being able to catch the ball is a basketball skill (anyone remember butter-finger bosh?). The ability to play with high intensity/effort the entire game is a skill (Jordan, Kobe). The ability to finish around the basket with a soft-touch is a skill.

          Yeah, he sometimes has awareness issues as people have mentioned (bad passes, etc.), but so do a lot of starters. When Gay dribbles into 2 defenders and tries to shoot over them without considering open teammates--I consider that an awareness problem. Yet people never doubt that he's a starter. How many turnovers did Rudy have against Charlotte? 6? How about Amir? Yet people bitch about his "boneheaded plays". If someone contributes points, rebounds, man defence, help defence, extra possessions (off. rebounds and diving for loose balls) while limiting his turnovers--screams positive benefit for the team.

          The best teams have their dominant scorers and players with roles surrounding them. Amir is an examplary role player. An extreme example to make my point is Dennis Rodman. The guy was an amazing man defender, the best rebounder in history... but left a lot to be desired in other areas. Amir--not as strong as a man/post defender, Amir is a better help defender by far, not as strong a rebounder, but is no slouch...better offensive rebounder.. a better passer, a better shooter, can finish the pick and roll so defence has to respect him in the key... I could go on.
          I mean, have you seen Rodman shoot free throws? The guy didn't give a crap. He just laughed and threw it at the rim... almost chest-passed it at the rim. Mutombo couldn't do anything but block and rebound... Those players do specific things better than Amir, but Amir is clearly the better all-around player... yet they are starters, and Amir can't be?

          It also depends on the make-up of your team and what it needs. If you have crap perimeter players, then hopefully you have a post player with a strong offensive game. For the Raptors, Amir is exactly what we need. Starter in my eyes. I respect that other people have opinions, but I can't help feel that questioning Amir is ludacris.

          **Edit** Amir had same number of turnovers as Gay last game... however Amir's season averages and career averages are still lower than Gay's.
          Right...except Rodman was a part of at least 2 separate championship teams. Would the Raps miss Amir? Yes. Could they replace him easier than finding a go-to scorer, 2 way centre(or big) or legitimate starting PG? Yes.

          It makes me think you're actually just really young and never watched Rodman play. Rodman was arguably the best defensive player in the league for a decade, when you factor in man D, help D, rebounding and teh ability to guard the other team's best big man. Comparing him to Rodman is exactly the kind of homerism of which Raptors fans are chronically guilty. The fact that you put Amir in the same category as Rodman and Mutumbo, two of the most dominant defensive forces of the modern game, is ludicrous (that's how you spell ludicrous, btw, not like the rapper's name) to me. There is absolutely no stat you can put out there that will make me think differently.

          *also, you should notice that at no point in my first post did I hate Amir. I said he's fine as a starter or coming off the bench, but that the type of role he plays is hardly irreplaceable. While it's nice to have that utility 2nd/3rd big locked up, it's little consolation when this team still has so many holes. JV looks like a legit 2 way C who maybe, just maybe, has enough talent to also be a franchise player. Gay is not quite that good it seems. Demar is clearly not at this point and would have to show dramatic improvement. Ross is too young. Lowry is not, and at this point is questionable as even the starting PG of the future. Basically, this team has one legit piece that should be a major part of a contender in JV. Amir fits well next to him and I'd love to keep him, but there are more important things to take care of, and if the cost of getting, say a legit franchise player or PG was including Amir in a deal, I don't think I could turn that down.
          Last edited by white men can't jump; Sat Mar 16, 2013, 01:28 PM.

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          • #20
            If Amir continues this way, his value will be unbelievable. Colangelo's will be busy answering calls about his availability. It's probably the best chance to trade Bargnani. Bargnani and Amir packaged together could fetch us an all-star caliber player.
            Attitude Is A Choice.

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            • #21
              NoFrillz wrote: View Post
              Man! I rarely post on here, but I'm sick of people hating on Amir. If Amir left, of course it would make an impact on the Raptors rebuild... How could it not? It makes an impact each game when he is substituted out.

              I know the guy doesn't have a polished offensive game, but that doesn't mean he isn't starter quality. You only need so many starters that can create or have plays called for them. It would be great if your bigs have some slicks post moves, but realistically, if you have solid perimeter players, you just need your bigs to be able to finish at the rim/close to the rim. That keeps defences honest on your post players. In that regard, Amir is actually one of the best on the team. He has the softest touch on the team, some of the best hands I've ever seen on a big (he catches some really crappy passes, even on the run), and is a great finisher.

              People overlook that being able to catch the ball is a basketball skill (anyone remember butter-finger bosh?). The ability to play with high intensity/effort the entire game is a skill (Jordan, Kobe). The ability to finish around the basket with a soft-touch is a skill.

              Yeah, he sometimes has awareness issues as people have mentioned (bad passes, etc.), but so do a lot of starters. When Gay dribbles into 2 defenders and tries to shoot over them without considering open teammates--I consider that an awareness problem. Yet people never doubt that he's a starter. How many turnovers did Rudy have against Charlotte? 6? How about Amir? Yet people bitch about his "boneheaded plays". If someone contributes points, rebounds, man defence, help defence, extra possessions (off. rebounds and diving for loose balls) while limiting his turnovers--screams positive benefit for the team.

              The best teams have their dominant scorers and players with roles surrounding them. Amir is an examplary role player. An extreme example to make my point is Dennis Rodman. The guy was an amazing man defender, the best rebounder in history... but left a lot to be desired in other areas. Amir--not as strong as a man/post defender, Amir is a better help defender by far, not as strong a rebounder, but is no slouch...better offensive rebounder.. a better passer, a better shooter, can finish the pick and roll so defence has to respect him in the key... I could go on.
              I mean, have you seen Rodman shoot free throws? The guy didn't give a crap. He just laughed and threw it at the rim... almost chest-passed it at the rim. Mutombo couldn't do anything but block and rebound... Those players do specific things better than Amir, but Amir is clearly the better all-around player... yet they are starters, and Amir can't be?

              It also depends on the make-up of your team and what it needs. If you have crap perimeter players, then hopefully you have a post player with a strong offensive game. For the Raptors, Amir is exactly what we need. Starter in my eyes. I respect that other people have opinions, but I can't help feel that questioning Amir is ludacris.

              **Edit** Amir had same number of turnovers as Gay last game... however Amir's season averages and career averages are still lower than Gay's.
              +1

              Unbelievable, isn't it? As is the response you got from "white men can't jump". The point flew over some heads I guess, and as is often seen on here, taken as simply comparing player "x" to player "y" instead of the concept presented.

              PS. I wonder where all the people are to own up to slagging BC for the contract he gave Amir. I bet there isn't a GM in the league that wouldn't love to have Amir for that price right now. I'd bet the same thing is going to happen with DeMar.

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              • #22
                p00ka wrote: View Post
                +1

                Unbelievable, isn't it? As is the response you got from "white men can't jump". The point flew over some heads I guess, and as is often seen on here, taken as simply comparing player "x" to player "y" instead of the concept presented.

                PS. I wonder where all the people are to own up to slagging BC for the contract he gave Amir. I bet there isn't a GM in the league that wouldn't love to have Amir for that price right now. I'd bet the same thing is going to happen with DeMar.
                Umm...he did directly compare Amir to Rodman though...he even called Amir a better offensive rebounder.....ability to have an objective viewpoint lost there...

                He also compared Gay turning it over to be the same as Amir turning it over, as if their usage is at all similar, and as if turnovers are the only boneheaded plays possible.

                Again, if you actually read my posts, you'll notice I'm an Amir supporter, I'm just not going to be delusional about it.
                Last edited by white men can't jump; Sat Mar 16, 2013, 06:27 PM.

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                • #23
                  white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                  Umm...he did directly compare Amir to Rodman though...he even called Amir a better offensive rebounder.....ability to have an objective viewpoint lost there...

                  He also compared Gay turning it over to be the same as Amir turning it over, as if their usage is at all similar, and as if turnovers are the only boneheaded plays possible.

                  Again, if you actually read my posts, you'll notice I'm an Amir supporter, I'm just not going to be delusional about it.
                  If you restrict your attention span to a sentence here or there, then you're right that he compared Amir to Rodman and Gay, but if you're able to pay attention to the whole post, he's not doing that at all, but speaking to the concept of players being valuable starters on a good/very good team despite certain weaknesses, and so much of that depends on the blend of starting players. Yes, it was inaccurate to say Amir is a better offensive rebounder, but that's nit-picking a detail and overlooking the essence of the post that Amir doesn't need to be an all star that's strong at everything to be a valuable starter, in particular on a team with the make-up of the Raps.

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                  • #24
                    Amir's go to move with those baby hooks are pretty dam impressive.

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                    • #25
                      Amir is our most useful player.
                      The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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                      • #26

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                        • #27
                          p00ka wrote: View Post
                          If you restrict your attention span to a sentence here or there, then you're right that he compared Amir to Rodman and Gay, but if you're able to pay attention to the whole post, he's not doing that at all, but speaking to the concept of players being valuable starters on a good/very good team despite certain weaknesses, and so much of that depends on the blend of starting players. Yes, it was inaccurate to say Amir is a better offensive rebounder, but that's nit-picking a detail and overlooking the essence of the post that Amir doesn't need to be an all star that's strong at everything to be a valuable starter, in particular on a team with the make-up of the Raps.
                          Not going to get into a debate with you...they tend to end up just being condescending shouting matches. I don't htink you read my posts very well, because I also consistently support Amir. I think some Raps fans just take things to absurd extremes trying to get their points across, no matter how much they try to pass it off as just an example.
                          Last edited by white men can't jump; Sun Mar 17, 2013, 08:56 PM.

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                          • #28
                            white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                            Not going to get into a debate with you...they tend to end up just being condescending shouting matches. I don't htink you read my posts very well, because I also consistently support Amir. I think some Raps fans just take things to absurd extremes trying to get their points across, no matter how much they try to pass it off as just an example.
                            hmmm, "condescending shouting matches". So are you speaking of some personal experience, with multiple people, or with one particular poster that you're leaning on? I would like to know how I've mistreated you, such that I can be better.

                            I'm sorry you feel that good examples of a point are taking things to extremes, though that's the best chance of getting the point across sometimes. Great to hear that you consistently support Amir, even when if he "left your team, it would possibly not even make any impact on the building/rebuilding happening" as "he's not exactly top of the list of players a team needs to win/contend". Support away, and have fun out there, eh.

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                            • #29
                              p00ka wrote: View Post
                              hmmm, "condescending shouting matches". So are you speaking of some personal experience, with multiple people, or with one particular poster that you're leaning on? I would like to know how I've mistreated you, such that I can be better.

                              I'm sorry you feel that good examples of a point are taking things to extremes, though that's the best chance of getting the point across sometimes. Great to hear that you consistently support Amir, even when if he "left your team, it would possibly not even make any impact on the building/rebuilding happening" as "he's not exactly top of the list of players a team needs to win/contend". Support away, and have fun out there, eh.
                              Yeah, this is what I meant by condescending. First you accuse me of taking a small piece of a post out of context, and then you go and take quotes of mine completely out of context, you colossal douche bag. You only look to bait people into some kind of personal argument with to goal of putting yourself in a position which you feel is irrefutably the winning side.

                              If you actually read my posts, I just make a point of saying not to take Amir for anything different than what he is, which is a very good role player. That's not a slight. It's not a bad thing to be the 5th most talented player on a starting 5. He is, technically, easier to replace than a talented core piece, like JV (a legit 2 way true C), or a go-to scorer (hopefully Gay can fix his shot and fit this), as any Raps fan should know since we've never had the former, and I suppose Bosh is sort of the last time for the latter, but Carter would be from the wing position(the only one the Raps have had since I don't count T-Mac who left before he hit that). The Raps have had some players with similar qualities to Johnson...AD, JYD, Garbo, Evans...Amir may be better than all of them, but to take Evans...Amir would certainly make BKL better than Evans, but it doesn't change how strong the Nets are right now. He would solidify what they do, but they depend on having core roles filled by guys like Lopez, Johnson and Williams in order to achieve much of their success. He'd make them better, but they wouldn't even be a playoff team without that core in the first place. So if in order to solidify a core, for some reason, the team had to lose Amir, they could recover from that much more easily than, say, if they traded JV for the same player(s). You might not replace everything Amir gives you right away, but you'd have a much better shot of doing it at the next off season (and at every offseason) with a smart pick or signing than replacing other core pieces. If you don't understand that, well, then, you must have really complex opinions that really do go over my simple head.

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                              • #30
                                keep it going guys !

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