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Question: At what point does Casey have to adjust his style and strategy?

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  • #16
    Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    They needed Rasheed Wallace and some luck
    Imo, what they did to the Lakers in the finals wasn't luck.

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    • #17
      Mediumcore wrote: View Post
      Imo, what they did to the Lakers in the finals wasn't luck.
      It was one of my favorite teams, but I think teams almost always need some luck here and there to win a championship.

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      • #18
        Soft Euro wrote: View Post
        It was one of my favorite teams, but I think teams almost always need some luck here and there to win a championship.
        I would agree if it was like the March Madness format where it was only one game you need to win to move on, but in a 7 game series it's hard to say winning has to do with luck. Just my opinion.

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        • #19
          p00ka wrote: View Post
          So you give it that Jose is a better PG, but say that Lowry is a better overall basketball player because he has more basketball skills. Skills mean dick all unless you use them well, but does he shoot better than Jose? No way on earth. Does he pass better than Jose? No way on earth. Does he make better decisions than Jose? No way. So what exactly are these heightened basketball skills that make him a better basketball player? You speak of driving to the hoop. Yup, he started the year (what 3 games?) being successful with that, but then what happened? Teams started defending that and he found himself driving into a forest of defenders more often than not, having no outlet, and hoisting up some prayer of a circus shot. That's called very bad decision making, but hey, driving to the hoop is his strength, eh, even when it's a hopeless decision.

          "He has been dicked around so much this year he can't even throw a lob pass, pitch the ball ahead, or consistently attack the rim anymore."

          So Casey's to blame for him not being able to throw a decent lob pass or pitch the ball ahead? Interesting, but laughable. I suppose it's Casey's fault when he stands there whining to the refs while play is headed the other way, just like his buddy Rudy? Or I suppose it's Casey's fault that he constantly leaves his man while ball hawking on D?

          "His confidence and thus his decision making is noticeably shaken."

          First, word amongst those who are closer to the team is that he's been playing hurt since his early season injury. Might that have something to do with his play, and confidence? Or maybe it's just that the only thing he knows is 1 on 5 street balling, like his Philly hero A.I. and he's having a hard time adjusting to actually playing NBA team ball, instead of the hero ball decision making he's used to, and why two teams already kissed his ass goodbye.
          Maybe put it this way. Pretend you're the team captain, an it's your job to pick the players on your team for a pick-up basketball game going on, near town centre, or whatever.

          Who is your choice? Jose Calderon, or Kyle Lowry? From a talent perspective, from a guy who has abilities on both ends of the floor, I'm taking Lowry maybe 8 times out of 10.

          There's always questions about a system, playing time, etc, etc. That all goes on in an actually competitive league. But, in a pick-up game, there's no one else but 10 guys on the court, and the most talented team wins.
          Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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          • #20
            p00ka wrote: View Post
            So you give it that Jose is a better PG, but say that Lowry is a better overall basketball player because he has more basketball skills. Skills mean dick all unless you use them well, but does he shoot better than Jose? No way on earth. Does he pass better than Jose? No way on earth. Does he make better decisions than Jose? No way. So what exactly are these heightened basketball skills that make him a better basketball player? You speak of driving to the hoop. Yup, he started the year (what 3 games?) being successful with that, but then what happened?Teams started defending that and he found himself driving into a forest of defenders more often than not, having no outlet, and hoisting up some prayer of a circus shot. That's called very bad decision making, but hey, driving to the hoop is his strength, eh, even when it's a hopeless decision.

            "He has been dicked around so much this year he can't even throw a lob pass, pitch the ball ahead, or consistently attack the rim anymore."

            So Casey's to blame for him not being able to throw a decent lob pass or pitch the ball ahead? Interesting, but laughable. I suppose it's Casey's fault when he stands there whining to the refs while play is headed the other way, just like his buddy Rudy? Or I suppose it's Casey's fault that he constantly leaves his man while ball hawking on D?

            "His confidence and thus his decision making is noticeably shaken."

            First, word amongst those who are closer to the team is that he's been playing hurt since his early season injury. Might that have something to do with his play, and confidence? Or maybe it's just that the only thing he knows is 1 on 5 street balling, like his Philly hero A.I. and he's having a hard time adjusting to actually playing NBA team ball, instead of the hero ball decision making he's used to, and why two teams already kissed his ass goodbye.
            He got injured. Casey has mismanaged his talent/abilities all season (square peg, round hole). The Raptors are comprised of players that need to be spoon fed to be successful. The lack of talent has been an issue. The addition of JV, Lowry, and Gay significantly increase the talent on this team.

            Lowry is not perfect - far from it. However the issue is he is not being used to his strengths and despite his efforts to evolve in to the type of PG Casey wants, Casey has not evolved to maximize the talent he actually has.

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            • #21
              I'm going to try and not get into Lowry vs Jose debate, but I will say I'm not at all convinced Lowry is more 'talented' than Jose. They are very different style PGs, with Jose being more talented in some areas, and Lowry in others. To add to that Jose's biggest weakness, defense, wasn't quite as bad as people claimed so trading for Lowry didn't give this jump in defensive prowress people expected. Rather having a team loaded with bad defenders made it look much worse than it is, much like it was for Lowry especially early in the season. Hello: Andrea 'I don't help on defense and instantly make everyone a bad defender' Bargnani

              Lowry's numbers are very similar to the same numbers he put up in Houston. (Link) In fact many are at or near career highs. The only area where his numbers have dropped of any note (and not that much to be honest) is scoring attempts (FGA + FTA). Which shouldn't be a suprise given he's hasn't been the center of the offense in Toronto like he was in Houston.

              I think this is a case of some combination of the following:

              -people having much too high of expectations of him, and now he is only performing poorly in relation to those expectations. He's actually been good, just not great.

              -playing a different role (ie. not a shoot first PG). And while some may blame Casey for this, I'd point you directly to Colangelo. Its not suprising the guys taking shots instead of Lowry are the guys Colangelo is paying the most and guys he's seen as the teams franchise players at one point or another this season. We all know the consequences of a coach not following the plan on this team.

              - Jose being better than people thought, and the 'upgrade' to Lowry was marginal at best.

              - scoring still plays a big role, at the very least subconsiously, convincing fans how talented players are. Compared to last year all Lowry's efficiency numbers are up (including rebounds and steals. While the small drop in drtg is easily explained by being on a worse defensive team to last season - team drtg of 105.2 in Houston vs 108 in Toronto), its only his actual shots taken that are down.

              To sum up. Lowry is a good player, on a bad team thats poorly built with players playing roles they aren't suited to because the GM is more concerned with perserving his ego (and job) than building for success. Casey and Lowry are just symptoms of a bigger issue.
              Last edited by Craiger; Sun Mar 24, 2013, 07:02 AM.

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              • #22
                Craiger wrote: View Post
                I'm going to try and not get into Lowry vs Jose debate, but I will say I'm not at all convinced Lowry is more 'talented' than Jose. They are very different style PGs, with Jose being more talented in some areas, and Lowry in others. To add to that Jose's biggest weakness, defense, wasn't quite as bad as people claimed so trading for Lowry didn't give this jump in defensive prowress people expected. Rather having a team loaded with bad defenders made it look much worse than it is, much like it was for Lowry especially early in the season. Hello: Andrea 'I don't help on defense and instantly make everyone a bad defender' Bargnani

                Lowry's numbers are very similar to the same numbers he put up in Houston. (Link) In fact many are at or near career highs. The only area where his numbers have dropped of any note (and not that much to be honest) is scoring attempts (FGA + FTA). Which shouldn't be a suprise given he's hasn't been the center of the offense in Toronto like he was in Houston.

                I think this is a case of some combination of the following:

                -people having much too high of expectations of him, and now he is only performing poorly in relation to those expectations. He's actually been good, just not great.

                -playing a different role (ie. not a shoot first PG). And while some may blame Casey for this, I'd point you directly to Colangelo. Its not suprising the guys taking shots instead of Lowry are the guys Colangelo is paying the most and guys he's seen as the teams franchise players at one point or another this season. We all know the consequences of a coach not following the plan on this team.

                - Jose being better than people thought, and the 'upgrade' to Lowry was marginal at best.

                - scoring still plays a big role, at the very least subconsiously, convincing fans how talented players are. Compared to last year all Lowry's efficiency numbers are up (including rebounds and steals. While the small drop in drtg is easily explained by being on a worse defensive team to last season - team drtg of 105.2 in Houston vs 108 in Toronto), its only his actual shots taken that are down.

                To sum up. Lowry is a good player, on a bad team thats poorly built with players playing roles they aren't suited to because the GM is more concerned with perserving his ego (and job) than building for success. Casey and Lowry are just symptoms of a bigger issue.
                That is still an upgrade.

                Lowry trying to play Jose's game is still an upgrade.

                Despite Casey not playing to his players strengths - including Lowry - he is still an upgrade.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Bryan C is the worst GM in the league. He overpays and He picked every player and coach on this roster. THIS TEAM IS SUPER FLAWED. There is no clear direction. I cant believe that he gets away with this shit!

                  Do Results not matter anymore??????

                  No draft pick...
                  No flexibility...
                  No one wants Bargs...
                  Kleiza, Fields, Hedo, etc.

                  He traded JJ for a second round pick (gave up a 1st to get him)...
                  Let Bayless walk for nothing....Now he plays for Memphis and playing quite well....
                  Traded ED for an overpaid player with back problems (Gay)...Check out Memphis' play since the trade! How could you not see that they're better off without RG??

                  Most of his moves end up BLOWING up in our faces!! His euro ball experiment FAILED.

                  If they pick up his option WE'RE FUCKED.... I have ZERO confidence in this clown. Hands down the worst GM in the league. Who else would believe that Andrea Bargnani is a number 1 option for so many years??

                  BC is the guy that put this all together....stop blaming AB.....stop blaming Dwane Casey....,stop blaming the fans......get rid of Bryan C! ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!

                  End Rant.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    The only strategy change needed is to fire Casey, let go of BC

                    Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    I respect your opinion here and am not being confrontational sometimes that needs to go with saying....

                    I very much agree Lowry is a downgrade from Jose when you are asking Lowry to play like Jose. If you let Lowry play his game, then I think Lowry is a better player. Jose is still a better point guard but Lowry is a better player.
                    I have missed the last 4 games. I can't believe what has transpired. I personally don't like how Lowry is trying to play Jose's game. Making an effort to pass is noble but his offence has taken a hit. Maybe he's trying to be a better point guard. Only time will tell. Something tells me that his camp or himself has himself convinced that if he never gets his assists totals up, it will factor in his next contract. As much as I hate BC since Bosh walked, I'm really trying hard to defend Casey. HOWEVER, I do think that he shouldn't even be given a chance to coach this team next year (even though his option was picked up). I think a new system needs to be employed this summer and it shouldn't be coming from Casey. I don't like offensive minded-coaches here but the reality is that the players have changed. I think its time to go in another direction - like a Nate MacMillan direction. BC can go as well, but then again, you already heard me say that 1,000 times.
                    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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                    • #25
                      I don't believe a Coach should be adjusting his style and strategy because what he's tried so far hasn't worked. If it's not working then his basic Coaching style is not suited for the NBA. Casey is a good assistant Coach(defence) and the Mavs. championship win is proof of that. Unfortunately his ability to teach defence does not translate to good head coaching.
                      Attitude Is A Choice.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        p00ka wrote: View Post
                        So you give it that Jose is a better PG, but say that Lowry is a better overall basketball player because he has more basketball skills. Skills mean dick all unless you use them well, but does he shoot better than Jose? No way on earth. Does he pass better than Jose? No way on earth. Does he make better decisions than Jose? No way. So what exactly are these heightened basketball skills that make him a better basketball player? You speak of driving to the hoop. Yup, he started the year (what 3 games?) being successful with that, but then what happened? Teams started defending that and he found himself driving into a forest of defenders more often than not, having no outlet, and hoisting up some prayer of a circus shot. That's called very bad decision making, but hey, driving to the hoop is his strength, eh, even when it's a hopeless decision.

                        "He has been dicked around so much this year he can't even throw a lob pass, pitch the ball ahead, or consistently attack the rim anymore."

                        So Casey's to blame for him not being able to throw a decent lob pass or pitch the ball ahead? Interesting, but laughable. I suppose it's Casey's fault when he stands there whining to the refs while play is headed the other way, just like his buddy Rudy? Or I suppose it's Casey's fault that he constantly leaves his man while ball hawking on D?

                        "His confidence and thus his decision making is noticeably shaken."

                        First, word amongst those who are closer to the team is that he's been playing hurt since his early season injury. Might that have something to do with his play, and confidence? Or maybe it's just that the only thing he knows is 1 on 5 street balling, like his Philly hero A.I. and he's having a hard time adjusting to actually playing NBA team ball, instead of the hero ball decision making he's used to, and why two teams already kissed his ass goodbye.
                        I think you're missing Matt's point. The original post is arguing that the Coaching philosophy doesn't complement Lowry's skill set. While I agree with Lowry playing hero-ball, taking chances on D etc. I don't think he's comfortable with what's expected on either side of the floor.
                        There's math, and everything else is debatable.

                        @clericalbeats

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
                          I have missed the last 4 games. I can't believe what has transpired. I personally don't like how Lowry is trying to play Jose's game. Making an effort to pass is noble but his offence has taken a hit. Maybe he's trying to be a better point guard. Only time will tell. Something tells me that his camp or himself has himself convinced that if he never gets his assists totals up, it will factor in his next contract. As much as I hate BC since Bosh walked, I'm really trying hard to defend Casey. HOWEVER, I do think that he shouldn't even be given a chance to coach this team next year (even though his option was picked up). I think a new system needs to be employed this summer and it shouldn't be coming from Casey. I don't like offensive minded-coaches here but the reality is that the players have changed. I think its time to go in another direction - like a Nate MacMillan direction. BC can go as well, but then again, you already heard me say that 1,000 times.
                          I don't think McMillan is the answer but I agree with everything else - including BC.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            You can't change what doesn't exist. Casey has neither style or strategy, unless you consider getting our Raps isolation plays a strategy.

                            Of course if you do think he has a style, then hell yes he needs to change it. Look at the record.

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                            • #29
                              I think the first questions are: what exactly is the style of play of this this team? what is the overall strategy?

                              I have no idea what this team's identity is at the moment or what it is supposed to be. Do they want to be a tough minded defensive team like the great Celtic teams of recent years? Do they want to beat you up inside like Indy and Memphis? Do they want to run and gun like Denver?

                              Again, I don't know if the plan needs to change cause I don't know what the plan is. If I had to describe this team, the best I could come up with is: Group of mostly selfish players who shoot a lot of contested midrange jumpers and foul other teams a lot.

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                              • #30
                                slaw wrote: View Post
                                I think the first questions are: what exactly is the style of play of this this team? what is the overall strategy?

                                I have no idea what this team's identity is at the moment or what it is supposed to be. Do they want to be a tough minded defensive team like the great Celtic teams of recent years? Do they want to beat you up inside like Indy and Memphis? Do they want to run and gun like Denver?

                                Again, I don't know if the plan needs to change cause I don't know what the plan is. If I had to describe this team, the best I could come up with is: Group of mostly selfish players who shoot a lot of contested midrange jumpers and foul other teams a lot.
                                Exactly what I was going to say. We arent a defensive minded team. Our offensive execution is ugly and inefficient. We dont play slow, but we dont play fast either. We are stuck in no mans land from a strategy perspective.

                                For what its worth, given where we are at, here is the identity I would try to build (I dont think Casey is the guy to build it, as he only has one identity .. veteran, slow and defensive minded (of which we are none).

                                1) Play Fast, Up tempo
                                We all know that our offense is pretty inefficient and relies on a bunch of isos that end up in long Js. While we clearly need to fix this .. how about avoiding the problem as often as we can? Our biggest strengths are athletic wing men (and pretty athletic big men in Amir and JV). We should run the shit out of teams and let RG, DD, TR, AJ play to their strengths of finishing in transition (maybe not DD .. but he can learn). We are also deep at these positions .. so again, why not run more? In the jose days, maybe not .. but with the current team, yes.

                                2) Go Young
                                We have finally started to do this a little bit .. but the only way that this team will succeed given our lack of flexibility is if JV and TR develop into at least good (if not very good) NBA players.

                                3) Get a Coach that knows Offense
                                Whether its an assistant or a new head coach .. we had got to switch up this deplorable offensive execution.

                                4) Try to keep the D up as much as possible given the above
                                I realize these things will be hard to improve all at once .. but think about a Denver-esque type scheme that takes advantage of our long, athletic wing men to extend ball pressure and try to trap people. We will give up a lot of points .. but hopefully cause some TOs

                                As I type these things out, Im not sure casey is the man for any of them, with perhaps the exception of #4. So, I guess we should start with a new coach.

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