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Question: At what point does Casey have to adjust his style and strategy?

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  • #31
    Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    I would agree if it was like the March Madness format where it was only one game you need to win to move on, but in a 7 game series it's hard to say winning has to do with luck. Just my opinion.
    I'm not saying the winners are lucky, obviously you have to be one of the best. Many of these games come down to a few possessions; a few shots dropping or not dropping, a few rebounds going your way, a few calls or non calls by the referees, etc. Often games can go either way, but we make up a narrative afterwards which completely explains why one side one and the other lost. E.g. if you look at the 2011 finals, between Miami and Dallas, lots of those games could have gone either way.

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    • #32
      i think weree gunna look back at this time a few years from now and say "remember when the raptors tried to be a defensive team? what a fail that was" as we go back to run and gun style

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      • #33
        Simply put, what we call our "team" is composed of like-minded individual chuckers at heart & the result is Kyle Lowry being asked to take on the role of a floor general (by default since he's the PG). As of right now, we have 6 guys (Lowry, DeRozan, Gay, Anderson, Ross & Lucas) who all qualify as chuckers at heart.

        Our problem stems from the horrible talent stacking that our genius GM blessed us with & the small ball line-up is a result of the lack of depth in the front court. Realistically, who else is there to play the 4 or 5? Gray, Acy?

        But the last few games have meant absolutely nothing except we are that much closer to dropping in the standings & therefore, gives us a better chance of getting a pick (which I'm not sure is a good thing because I'm not convinced we'll make the playoffs next year either).

        Maybe we are seeing "Operation Tank Properly" in effect
        “I don’t create controversies. They’re there long before I open my mouth. I just bring them to your attention.”

        -- Charles Barkley

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        • #34
          RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
          Maybe put it this way. Pretend you're the team captain, an it's your job to pick the players on your team for a pick-up basketball game going on, near town centre, or whatever.

          Who is your choice? Jose Calderon, or Kyle Lowry? From a talent perspective, from a guy who has abilities on both ends of the floor, I'm taking Lowry maybe 8 times out of 10.

          There's always questions about a system, playing time, etc, etc. That all goes on in an actually competitive league. But, in a pick-up game, there's no one else but 10 guys on the court, and the most talented team wins.
          The NBA is not pick-up basketball.

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          • #35
            d749 wrote: View Post
            i think weree gunna look back at this time a few years from now and say "remember when the raptors tried to be a defensive team? what a fail that was" as we go back to run and gun style
            I don't think we were ever known as a "run and gun" team, and if we were, there is no comparison to the likes of Denver's offense.
            Twitter - @thekid_it

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            • #36
              Matt52 wrote: View Post
              He got injured. Casey has mismanaged his talent/abilities all season (square peg, round hole). The Raptors are comprised of players that need to be spoon fed to be successful. The lack of talent has been an issue. The addition of JV, Lowry, and Gay significantly increase the talent on this team.

              Lowry is not perfect - far from it. However the issue is he is not being used to his strengths and despite his efforts to evolve in to the type of PG Casey wants, Casey has not evolved to maximize the talent he actually has.
              A virtual non-response to my post which responded directly to specifics in your previous post. I appreciate that you have a generalized opinion of what's going on based on little else than imagination, but let's call it what it is. Casey is not to blame for Lowry's poor play because he doesn't want Lowry trying to be a 1 on 5 street baller, and isn't to blame for Lowry still not having the skills to "make lob passes", "pass the ball ahead", or make good decisions, as a PG, in a team game. The Raps need a PG, not the stereotypical SG in a PG's body, Bayless 2.0, but if you want to rant about Casey's mismanaging of him, as in trying to get him to actually play like a starting PG that involves his teammates, carry on I guess.

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              • #37
                p00ka wrote: View Post
                A virtual non-response to my post which responded directly to specifics in your previous post. I appreciate that you have a generalized opinion of what's going on based on little else than imagination, but let's call it what it is. Casey is not to blame for Lowry's poor play because he doesn't want Lowry trying to be a 1 on 5 street baller, and isn't to blame for Lowry still not having the skills to "make lob passes", "pass the ball ahead", or make good decisions, as a PG, in a team game. The Raps need a PG, not the stereotypical SG in a PG's body, Bayless 2.0, but if you want to rant about Casey's mismanaging of him, as in trying to get him to actually play like a starting PG that involves his teammates, carry on I guess.
                FWIW, I actually agree with both sides of this argument, yours and Matt's. I'm also a firm believer that a team should have a pass-first, floor general style starting PG (ie: Calderon > Ford, Jack, Bayless, Lowry), because they have a tendancy to make the players around them better (ie: more efficient due to better ball rotation and more open looks).

                I think Lowry is very skilled, but I think he came in with unrealistic expectations. I also think his defense was overrated and he's been fighting an uphill battle, especially since he's replaced such a popular player. It's admirable that he's making an effort to be more of a distributor, but what's the point if it goes against all the instincts that made him a good player to begin with? Square peg, round hole - both DC & BC deserve some of the blame, with Lowry simply doing what's been asked of him.

                If the entire Raptors starting unit had better chemistry and ball movement - achievable through a combination of better fit of complimentary skilled players and smarter game-planning by DC - then I think Lowry could be a good fit while returning to his more natural/instinctive style of aggressive play. Rather than play a slow-paced, set style of offense where a single player was responsible for all the setups (ie: Raps with Calderon), the Raps should look to play a more team-oriented style of offense so Lowry won't be counted on as the lone facilitator.

                Without improving the chemistry and ball movement of the entire lineup, I think Lowry is best suited as a backup PG. In that role, his natural style of play will be more effective and his deficiencies won't be as detrimental to the entire team.

                Personally, I'd much rather keep Lowry as the starting PG and retool the starting unit around him. That's one of the reasons I've been so gung-ho about trading DeRozan for a starting PF with more of an established post-presence than Johnson. Not only would that give the Raps another option for offensive play calling (ie: through the post), but replacing an ISO/jump shooting DeRozan with an off-ball glue guy like Fields should also improve the team's overall ball movement on offense (plus the improved perimeter defense). I think Lowry would be a much better fit in that lineup than the current starting lineup.
                Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Mon Mar 25, 2013, 11:35 AM.

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                • #38
                  p00ka wrote: View Post
                  A virtual non-response to my post which responded directly to specifics in your previous post. I appreciate that you have a generalized opinion of what's going on based on little else than imagination, but let's call it what it is. Casey is not to blame for Lowry's poor play because he doesn't want Lowry trying to be a 1 on 5 street baller, and isn't to blame for Lowry still not having the skills to "make lob passes", "pass the ball ahead", or make good decisions, as a PG, in a team game. The Raps need a PG, not the stereotypical SG in a PG's body, Bayless 2.0, but if you want to rant about Casey's mismanaging of him, as in trying to get him to actually play like a starting PG that involves his teammates, carry on I guess.
                  Exactly.

                  You continue to do the p00ka 2-Step.

                  The thread was about Casey adjusting his style/methods to the roster he has and maximizing its potential.

                  You want to go in another direction. Have fun. It was my own fault for engaging in the first place.

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                  • #39
                    I got all excited about what to say as I read through the thread but CRF pretty much covered everything I could have said.

                    The only thing that wasn't mentioned was in regards to the trade for Lowry -- which I think compounds some of the unreasonable expectations we have of Lowry. The fact that we traded a first round pick for him. Bad draft class or not, when you're trading a first round pick (and a high one at that), you're expecting a pretty good player in return. Whether you think Lowry was an upgrade from Calderon or not, the margin of improvement does not justify a first round draft pick. And that sucks for everyone.
                    your pal,
                    ebrian

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                    • #40
                      CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                      Personally, I'd much rather keep Lowry as the starting PG and retool the starting unit around him. That's one of the reasons I've been so gung-ho about trading DeRozan for a starting PF with more of an established post-presence than Johnson. Not only would that give the Raps another option for offensive play calling (ie: through the post), but replacing an ISO/jump shooting DeRozan with an off-ball glue guy like Fields should also improve the team's overall ball movement on offense (plus the improved perimeter defense). I think Lowry would be a much better fit in that lineup than the current starting lineup.
                      This

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                      • #41
                        Matt52 wrote: View Post
                        Exactly.

                        You continue to do the p00ka 2-Step.

                        The thread was about Casey adjusting his style/methods to the roster he has and maximizing its potential.

                        You want to go in another direction. Have fun. It was my own fault for engaging in the first place.
                        No 2 step from here, but if you had stuck to a discussion about Casey's style/methods, without ranting about how he's ruining Lowry, to the point you're blaming Casey for Lowry's bad passes, including really shitty lobs, and bad decisions, etc.,,,, there would be no need for your 2 step.
                        Last edited by p00ka; Mon Mar 25, 2013, 02:15 PM.

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                        • #42
                          CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                          FWIW, I actually agree with both sides of this argument, yours and Matt's. I'm also a firm believer that a team should have a pass-first, floor general style starting PG (ie: Calderon > Ford, Jack, Bayless, Lowry), because they have a tendancy to make the players around them better (ie: more efficient due to better ball rotation and more open looks).

                          I think Lowry is very skilled, but I think he came in with unrealistic expectations. I also think his defense was overrated and he's been fighting an uphill battle, especially since he's replaced such a popular player. It's admirable that he's making an effort to be more of a distributor, but what's the point if it goes against all the instincts that made him a good player to begin with? Square peg, round hole - both DC & BC deserve some of the blame, with Lowry simply doing what's been asked of him.

                          If the entire Raptors starting unit had better chemistry and ball movement - achievable through a combination of better fit of complimentary skilled players and smarter game-planning by DC - then I think Lowry could be a good fit while returning to his more natural/instinctive style of aggressive play. Rather than play a slow-paced, set style of offense where a single player was responsible for all the setups (ie: Raps with Calderon), the Raps should look to play a more team-oriented style of offense so Lowry won't be counted on as the lone facilitator.

                          Without improving the chemistry and ball movement of the entire lineup, I think Lowry is best suited as a backup PG. In that role, his natural style of play will be more effective and his deficiencies won't be as detrimental to the entire team.

                          Personally, I'd much rather keep Lowry as the starting PG and retool the starting unit around him. That's one of the reasons I've been so gung-ho about trading DeRozan for a starting PF with more of an established post-presence than Johnson. Not only would that give the Raps another option for offensive play calling (ie: through the post), but replacing an ISO/jump shooting DeRozan with an off-ball glue guy like Fields should also improve the team's overall ball movement on offense (plus the improved perimeter defense). I think Lowry would be a much better fit in that lineup than the current starting lineup.
                          Agreed, that the need for ball movement is huge, but imo we need to put more onus on the players than many do. Do people actually believe Casey is preaching iso after iso? No more than he preaches for Lowry to be passive and chuck up long 3s early in the shot clock. That's what Lowry was doing last game, until Casey called a timeout and encouraged Lowry to drive to the hoop, which he did effectively for a while. When players play boneheaded, it's foolish to assume that's how the coach wants them to play. And if the response is to "make them accountable", the coach is limited at times, as in you can't bench the whole team.

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                          • #43
                            p00ka wrote: View Post
                            No 2 step from here, but if you had stuck to a discussion about Casey's style/methods, without ranting about how he's ruining Lowry, to the point you're blaming Casey for Lowry's bad passes, including really shitty lobs, and bad decisions, etc.,,,, there would be no need for your 2 step.
                            Probably going to regret this but.....

                            Lowry has definitely adjust his game.

                            Casey has not adjusted his methods - same interviews/answers, sets, etc.

                            Thus rant.

                            *focus*

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                            • #44
                              p00ka wrote: View Post
                              Agreed, that the need for ball movement is huge, but imo we need to put more onus on the players than many do. Do people actually believe Casey is preaching iso after iso? No more than he preaches for Lowry to be passive and chuck up long 3s early in the shot clock. That's what Lowry was doing last game, until Casey called a timeout and encouraged Lowry to drive to the hoop, which he did effectively for a while. When players play boneheaded, it's foolish to assume that's how the coach wants them to play. And if the response is to "make them accountable", the coach is limited at times, as in you can't bench the whole team.
                              I would assume that DC's offensive gameplan is indeed responsible for the team's style of play and significant dependence on ISO plays and perimeter shooting. If not, then why have all these chuckers continued to play such heavy minutes? Yes, players will make some in-game decisions on their own, but most of the time I would imagine they are made within the flow of the overall gameplan, otherwise I would hope their ass would be firmly glued to the bench. Whether by design or by ignoring the gameplan (and continuing to play heavy mintues), DC is ultimately responsible for the actions of his players.

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                              • #45
                                p00ka wrote: View Post
                                Agreed, that the need for ball movement is huge, but imo we need to put more onus on the players than many do. Do people actually believe Casey is preaching iso after iso? No more than he preaches for Lowry to be passive and chuck up long 3s early in the shot clock. That's what Lowry was doing last game, until Casey called a timeout and encouraged Lowry to drive to the hoop, which he did effectively for a while. When players play boneheaded, it's foolish to assume that's how the coach wants them to play. And if the response is to "make them accountable", the coach is limited at times, as in you can't bench the whole team.
                                That's a key statement.

                                He obviously wouldn't preach iso after iso, but you can tell how average (or less) of an offensive coach Casey is. Whenever the offense breaks down, the tendency to run the iso/p-&-r is almost 100%. Which is telling that Casey has poor adjustment methods to how a defense is playing the team.
                                Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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