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  • #91
    JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    Jesus Christ of course I realize it isn't that simple. My point was just this: over the last ten games, the only player who I can say has, beyond a shadow of a doubt, been essential to the team's success has been Lowry. He's been playing at an All-NBA level. Replace him with an average point guard and this team's in the shitter. Replace anyone else and I don't think there's a significant change either way.
    First, my apologies gentlemen.
    Cliff and Oldskool.
    I was cranky as fuck today.

    I see the point you're both trying to make, and on an individual level I won't argue.
    I don't agree, but I won't argue.
    I like DeRozan sometimes, I don't like him other times.
    I don't know how much I like him for the Raptors, and where this team is headed.

    I just like to give credit where credit is due.
    Cliff, I don't agree that you can sub any one of these players out and have that same 10 game stretch.
    I think they are all essential.
    These guys are really playing like a team right now, and I don't believe Lowry has been the best player on the floor every night.
    But he's the driving force, no doubt.

    I also don't really think those 10 games are indicative of much, for the record.
    I just love to get hypothetical with this shit.

    I would be curious though, Cliff, to know who you think we could swap in for DeMar and expect the same performance. I think one of the odd benefits DeMar's reaped from being in Toronto is that he's been forced to be a first option on an offense. He shouldn't have been, but it's forced him to grow as a player, and not many guys can step in and fill that role. In an odd way, this misuse of a player has taken him from what should ideally be a 2nd/3rd option (again, I reference Kevin Martin) and elevated him into something potentially more dangerous (just like we did with Bosh). How many other shooting guards do you really think can do that?
    Last edited by Shrub; Tue Dec 31, 2013, 03:58 AM.

    Comment


    • #92
      Miekenstien wrote: View Post
      hahahaha
      That is kind of my reaction when I read comments like the one you have quoted while that same person proudly proclaims DeRozan is a brand new player not 10 games ago with his 40% shooting from three and rubbing others faces in it. My reaction all along has been lets wait and see what happens after 40 games, like half a season. Unfortunately it has not even taken that long to see he is essentially the same player he has always been.

      That "hahahaha" is also my reaction when I read people saying how great he is without actually providing anything to back it up.

      The "hahahaha" is also my take when I see other comments attempting to discredit me when I've been acknowledging on the strides in his game that have been made. Unfortunately it does not appear the DeChosen anointed by some fans will allow any criticism of a game with serious flaws.


      Here are some hardcore facts worthy of a "hahahaha":

      1) When DeRozan was playing his best individual ball of the year the Raptors were losing,
      2) The Raptors are winning while DeRozan is playing his worst offensive ball of the year while JV, Ross, Amir, and Lowry are playing their best ball (coincidence? I think not),
      3) DeRozan's individual stats are practically identical in wins and losses except he plays about 3 minutes less in wins and he takes 2.5 shots less per game in wins than losses while he has 4.0 vs 2.8 assists in wins vs losses,
      4) He is without question an inefficient volume shooter: he is 12th in total FGA per game while 20th in total points; per game he is 8th in FGA while 16th in PPG.


      There is no question he has shown growth this year but that was not hard to begin with, to be honest. I also agree with OldSkool in waiting for a logical post proving how good DD is.

      OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
      I still am looking for a post logically proving hpw good DD is...
      And for once I'd love to see him guard the other teams best perimeter player.... just once. Not hating, just saying.

      Comment


      • #93
        I don't understand why people think Demar is no good without the ball, and that he can only be 'effective' with the ball in his hands. Demar's best stretch this season was when Rudy was here and he was playing off the ball more. More catch and shoots, especially in the corner, and when he did create for himself it was more often in the post.

        He is actually much better and a more efficient and impactful player when he plays off the ball. The Raps lost when Demar played his best was because, IMO, because Rudy was the first option, and he completely sucked in that role, while Demar was more suited to that secondary role than the primary role he is in now. Furthermore, and more importantly, while Rudy was here neither JV, Amir, Lowry, or even Ross were engaged and playing well, which probably had more impact on the teams success than Demar's individual performances. Remove Rudy, and now the ball moves around the court and all our starters have stepped up to play hard, engaged basketball. Amir and JV are no longer just perimeter screeners, they are actually involved more in the offense and getting touches, and as such as playing better.

        the difference here is night and day, and that was on Rudy's shoulders. He was the inefficient chucking black hole, and thank the lord he is gone. Now we got some interesting basketball to watch.

        Nonetheless, Demar is now back into that primary scoring role, which most of us know isn't the best option for Demar. As such, his shot selection and efficiency have dropped. I think Nosike's point is a valid one. Although it may be his choice, as Matt said, to take some of those inefficient 2's, he is the guy that is expected to take those on this team, not Ross, Amir, JV, Salmons. Lowry is the only other option, and if he did more of that, his percentages would suffer as well. At times, someone on the team is going to have to take the tough shot, and that burden is on Demar.

        I think he should get back to posting up more. no doubt he gets doubled, and this would help open things up more for others. He would be more effective creating for others in the post than off the dribble IMO. And I also think he needs to use his screens better (when he has the ball). Too often he seems to think of them as a decoy and then just takes a step to the side for a long two. Step back for three or use the screen to drive to the basket or a pull up within 15 ft is even ok. This is just what I see, I have no lovely stats to back any of this up.

        Demar is not gonna be an efficient player as the number one offensive option, but playing off the ball he can be very good.

        Comment


        • #94
          Matt52 wrote: View Post
          That is kind of my reaction when I read comments like the one you have quoted while that same person proudly proclaims DeRozan is a brand new player not 10 games ago with his 40% shooting from three and rubbing others faces in it. My reaction all along has been lets wait and see what happens after 40 games, like half a season. Unfortunately it has not even taken that long to see he is essentially the same player he has always been.

          That "hahahaha" is also my reaction when I read people saying how great he is without actually providing anything to back it up.

          The "hahahaha" is also my take when I see other comments attempting to discredit me when I've been acknowledging on the strides in his game that have been made. Unfortunately it does not appear the DeChosen anointed by some fans will allow any criticism of a game with serious flaws.


          Here are some hardcore facts worthy of a "hahahaha":

          1) When DeRozan was playing his best individual ball of the year the Raptors were losing,
          2) The Raptors are winning while DeRozan is playing his worst offensive ball of the year while JV, Ross, Amir, and Lowry are playing their best ball (coincidence? I think not),
          3) DeRozan's individual stats are practically identical in wins and losses except he plays about 3 minutes less in wins and he takes 2.5 shots less per game in wins than losses while he has 4.0 vs 2.8 assists in wins vs losses,
          4) He is without question an inefficient volume shooter: he is 12th in total FGA per game while 20th in total points; per game he is 8th in FGA while 16th in PPG.


          There is no question he has shown growth this year but that was not hard to begin with, to be honest. I also agree with OldSkool in waiting for a logical post proving how good DD is.



          And for once I'd love to see him guard the other teams best perimeter player.... just once. Not hating, just saying.
          Jeeeesuzzz, several posts in the last couple of days have served notice that the obsession is back in full swing, but this one shows signs of more serious illness.

          "My reaction all along has been lets wait and see what happens after 40 games, like half a season"

          Huh? Delusional or what? 28 games in, not 40,,,,,,,, 28 games in, this incessant (like the worst broken record in effing history) downer:

          - has gone from "he is what he is....(I got stats, look, I got stats)"
          - to a number of posts reflecting the "I've been acknowledging on the strides in his game that have been made", enclosed in this very post
          - to returning to several incredibly lengthy, heavily stat nit-picked (while ignoring sound reasoning that stems from actual basketball knowledge, not stat studying) that reflect the "Unfortunately it has not even taken that long to see he is essentially the same player he has always been.", also enclosed in this post.

          Contradictions oozing all over the place. The back and forth flip-flopping within 28 games, not the chest pounding 40 mentioned is sad enough, but the 2 comments quoted above, in the same post is mind boggling. Particularly when the first one presented is the "same player he has always been" one,,,,,,,, which is soon followed by the "I've been acknowledging on the strides in his game" one, being used to garner sympathy votes in a whine about being "allowed" to criticize. wtf?

          Then we get more of the anecdotal stat "facts" that continues to ignore any sound basketball reasoning in favour of stats, man, I'm talking about stats,,, no basketball, we're talking stats............ and so on. To no surprise, followed by a challenge to supply stats,,,,, not basketball reasoning,,,, we're talking stats, not basketball, stats are the thing!

          "And for once I'd love to see him guard the other teams best perimeter player.... just once. Not hating, just saying"

          Maybe he needs to actually watch more games, and/or know what he's seeing? DeMar does guard other teams' best perimeter player, particularly since Gay has been gone,,,,,, and during this streak. Not all the time, but for shit sake, what the hell is expected? He expects that in the first year of his $9.5M deal (not max, not franchise player $), he should be both carrying the burden of #1 option on offense, AND covering the defense on the best player, all the time,,,,,, and producing great stats while doing it? Whine, whine, whine because he isn't a LeBron? How many damn players in the league can you say are the #1 option on offense AND consistently cover the opponent's best player? Except for the elite of the elite, that's a recipe for driving a kid into the ground. They're not effing robots! It's an illness, I tell ya. An illness, sadly enabled by many here.
          Last edited by p00ka; Tue Dec 31, 2013, 01:43 PM.

          Comment


          • #95
            JawsGT wrote: View Post
            I don't understand why people think Demar is no good without the ball, and that he can only be 'effective' with the ball in his hands. Demar's best stretch this season was when Rudy was here and he was playing off the ball more. More catch and shoots, especially in the corner, and when he did create for himself it was more often in the post.

            He is actually much better and a more efficient and impactful player when he plays off the ball. The Raps lost when Demar played his best was because, IMO, because Rudy was the first option, and he completely sucked in that role, while Demar was more suited to that secondary role than the primary role he is in now. Furthermore, and more importantly, while Rudy was here neither JV, Amir, Lowry, or even Ross were engaged and playing well, which probably had more impact on the teams success than Demar's individual performances. Remove Rudy, and now the ball moves around the court and all our starters have stepped up to play hard, engaged basketball. Amir and JV are no longer just perimeter screeners, they are actually involved more in the offense and getting touches, and as such as playing better.

            the difference here is night and day, and that was on Rudy's shoulders. He was the inefficient chucking black hole, and thank the lord he is gone. Now we got some interesting basketball to watch.

            Nonetheless, Demar is now back into that primary scoring role, which most of us know isn't the best option for Demar. As such, his shot selection and efficiency have dropped. I think Nosike's point is a valid one. Although it may be his choice, as Matt said, to take some of those inefficient 2's, he is the guy that is expected to take those on this team, not Ross, Amir, JV, Salmons. Lowry is the only other option, and if he did more of that, his percentages would suffer as well. At times, someone on the team is going to have to take the tough shot, and that burden is on Demar.

            I think he should get back to posting up more. no doubt he gets doubled, and this would help open things up more for others. He would be more effective creating for others in the post than off the dribble IMO. And I also think he needs to use his screens better (when he has the ball). Too often he seems to think of them as a decoy and then just takes a step to the side for a long two. Step back for three or use the screen to drive to the basket or a pull up within 15 ft is even ok. This is just what I see, I have no lovely stats to back any of this up.

            Demar is not gonna be an efficient player as the number one offensive option, but playing off the ball he can be very good.
            Yeah, the "needs ball in his hands" talk always bugs me a bit. He's not a ball-stopper. He's not a black hole. He's also not a #1 option, but unfortunately for him and the team, right now he's the closest thing we've got, so he ends up in a few too many situations where he has to make something happen on his own. A guy whose inefficiencies are due to too much responsibility is a guy who's hard to criticize for those inefficiencies, especially since by the eye-test, he's made pretty good progress over the last couple of years.

            Comment


            • #96
              Nosike wrote: View Post
              Already have. I've actually supported my opinion with facts in here. You never do and just spew garbage repeatedly. Like I said before you're the worst poster here and a troll in my book.
              Yes you have stated your opinion, but you haven't provided any evidence for it. I have backed up what I said, even Matt52's post backs up what I said. I'm not spewing garbage...spewing garbage would be saying that Austin Rivers is better than DD

              If that makes me the worst poster on here and a troll, then you do not know the definition of being a troll...

              Comment


              • #97
                Matt52 wrote: View Post
                That is kind of my reaction when I read comments like the one you have quoted while that same person proudly proclaims DeRozan is a brand new player not 10 games ago with his 40% shooting from three and rubbing others faces in it. My reaction all along has been lets wait and see what happens after 40 games, like half a season. Unfortunately it has not even taken that long to see he is essentially the same player he has always been.

                That "hahahaha" is also my reaction when I read people saying how great he is without actually providing anything to back it up.

                The "hahahaha" is also my take when I see other comments attempting to discredit me when I've been acknowledging on the strides in his game that have been made. Unfortunately it does not appear the DeChosen anointed by some fans will allow any criticism of a game with serious flaws.


                Here are some hardcore facts worthy of a "hahahaha":

                1) When DeRozan was playing his best individual ball of the year the Raptors were losing,
                2) The Raptors are winning while DeRozan is playing his worst offensive ball of the year while JV, Ross, Amir, and Lowry are playing their best ball (coincidence? I think not),
                3) DeRozan's individual stats are practically identical in wins and losses except he plays about 3 minutes less in wins and he takes 2.5 shots less per game in wins than losses while he has 4.0 vs 2.8 assists in wins vs losses,
                4) He is without question an inefficient volume shooter: he is 12th in total FGA per game while 20th in total points; per game he is 8th in FGA while 16th in PPG.


                There is no question he has shown growth this year but that was not hard to begin with, to be honest. I also agree with OldSkool in waiting for a logical post proving how good DD is.



                And for once I'd love to see him guard the other teams best perimeter player.... just once. Not hating, just saying.
                This deserves a double post.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Second/third best shooting guard under 25 and we're itching to move him.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    JawsGT wrote: View Post
                    I don't understand why people think Demar is no good without the ball, and that he can only be 'effective' with the ball in his hands. Demar's best stretch this season was when Rudy was here and he was playing off the ball more. More catch and shoots, especially in the corner, and when he did create for himself it was more often in the post.

                    He is actually much better and a more efficient and impactful player when he plays off the ball. The Raps lost when Demar played his best was because, IMO, because Rudy was the first option, and he completely sucked in that role, while Demar was more suited to that secondary role than the primary role he is in now. Furthermore, and more importantly, while Rudy was here neither JV, Amir, Lowry, or even Ross were engaged and playing well, which probably had more impact on the teams success than Demar's individual performances. Remove Rudy, and now the ball moves around the court and all our starters have stepped up to play hard, engaged basketball. Amir and JV are no longer just perimeter screeners, they are actually involved more in the offense and getting touches, and as such as playing better.

                    the difference here is night and day, and that was on Rudy's shoulders. He was the inefficient chucking black hole, and thank the lord he is gone. Now we got some interesting basketball to watch.

                    Nonetheless, Demar is now back into that primary scoring role, which most of us know isn't the best option for Demar. As such, his shot selection and efficiency have dropped. I think Nosike's point is a valid one. Although it may be his choice, as Matt said, to take some of those inefficient 2's, he is the guy that is expected to take those on this team, not Ross, Amir, JV, Salmons. Lowry is the only other option, and if he did more of that, his percentages would suffer as well. At times, someone on the team is going to have to take the tough shot, and that burden is on Demar.

                    I think he should get back to posting up more. no doubt he gets doubled, and this would help open things up more for others. He would be more effective creating for others in the post than off the dribble IMO. And I also think he needs to use his screens better (when he has the ball). Too often he seems to think of them as a decoy and then just takes a step to the side for a long two. Step back for three or use the screen to drive to the basket or a pull up within 15 ft is even ok. This is just what I see, I have no lovely stats to back any of this up.

                    Demar is not gonna be an efficient player as the number one offensive option, but playing off the ball he can be very good.
                    True, DD does not actually have the ball in his hands, because he is incapable of creating his own shot. Instead we need to dedicate 2 post players and Lowry in order to free him up for a catch and shoot of a long two...which is awful. So since he needs a play run for him specifically to score...I see him as a number 1 option and is therefor really not able to play off the ball, seeing as the ball is always intended to be passed to him (which is essentially dedicating the movement of the ball based on DD, in essence he is controlling the ball - hich is different than playing off the ball, say in the corner for a catch and shoot off of a drive, where the drive is the primary option)

                    Was DD a more impactful and efficient player with Gay?? I don't remember so...I remember a ton of people clawing their eyes out and stating that DD and Gay were putting up some of the least efficient numbers in the history of the NBA. Stop saying he was efficient as a number 2 option. He wasn't. Its been proven for 3 years.

                    The team got better post Gay because: Lowry, Val, Ross and Amir are now using Gay's offense rather than Gay...not DD, who is actually worse, and contributing less than normal.

                    Bold: DD has been bad at screens for over 4 years...he is what he is He can't shoot the three off of a screen very well so that eliminates that option. He is awful at using screens, he doesn't attack them and usually takes 1 or 2 soft dribbles away from the screen and takes a contested 2 even though the screener is wide open and he is being doubled...this is what I see in the game when he has the ball in a PnR situation (which is what you were referring to right?)

                    p00ka wrote: View Post
                    - has gone from "he is what he is....(I got stats, look, I got stats)"
                    - to a number of posts reflecting the "I've been acknowledging on the strides in his game that have been made", enclosed in this very post
                    - to returning to several incredibly lengthy, heavily stat nit-picked (while ignoring sound reasoning that stems from actual basketball knowledge, not stat studying) that reflect the "Unfortunately it has not even taken that long to see he is essentially the same player he has always been.", also enclosed in this post.

                    Contradictions oozing all over the place. The back and forth flip-flopping within 28 games, not the chest pounding 40 mentioned is sad enough, but the 2 comments quoted above, in the same post is mind boggling. Particularly when the first one presented is the "same player he has always been" one,,,,,,,, which is soon followed by the "I've been acknowledging on the strides in his game" one, being used to garner sympathy votes in a whine about being "allowed" to criticize. wtf?

                    Then we get more of the anecdotal stat "facts" that continues to ignore any sound basketball reasoning in favour of stats, man, I'm talking about stats,,, no basketball, we're talking stats............ and so on. To no surprise, followed by a challenge to supply stats,,,,, not basketball reasoning,,,, we're talking stats, not basketball, stats are the thing!

                    "And for once I'd love to see him guard the other teams best perimeter player.... just once. Not hating, just saying"

                    Maybe he needs to actually watch more games, and/or know what he's seeing? DeMar does guard other teams' best perimeter player, particularly since Gay has been gone,,,,,, and during this streak. Not all the time, but for shit sake, what the hell is expected? He expects that in the first year of his $9.5M deal (not max, not franchise player $), he should be both carrying the burden of #1 option on offense, AND covering the defense on the best player, all the time,,,,,, and producing great stats while doing it? Whine, whine, whine because he isn't a LeBron? How many damn players in the league can you say are the #1 option on offense AND consistently cover the opponent's best player? Except for the elite of the elite, that's a recipe for driving a kid into the ground. They're not effing robots! It's an illness, I tell ya. An illness, sadly enabled by many here.

                    Bold 1: Stats are used to reinforce what we are saying, or disprove what we are thinking.

                    Bold 2: BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....Ross says hi

                    BTW I'm still waiting for a logical argument explaining why DD is good

                    Comment


                    • p00ka wrote: View Post
                      Jeeeesuzzz, several posts in the last couple of days have served notice that the obsession is back in full swing, but this one shows signs of more serious illness.

                      "My reaction all along has been lets wait and see what happens after 40 games, like half a season"

                      Huh? Delusional or what? 28 games in, not 40,,,,,,,, 28 games in, this incessant (like the worst broken record in effing history) downer:

                      - has gone from "he is what he is....(I got stats, look, I got stats)"
                      - to a number of posts reflecting the "I've been acknowledging on the strides in his game that have been made", enclosed in this very post
                      - to returning to several incredibly lengthy, heavily stat nit-picked (while ignoring sound reasoning that stems from actual basketball knowledge, not stat studying) that reflect the "Unfortunately it has not even taken that long to see he is essentially the same player he has always been.", also enclosed in this post.

                      Contradictions oozing all over the place. The back and forth flip-flopping within 28 games, not the chest pounding 40 mentioned is sad enough, but the 2 comments quoted above, in the same post is mind boggling. Particularly when the first one presented is the "same player he has always been" one,,,,,,,, which is soon followed by the "I've been acknowledging on the strides in his game" one, being used to garner sympathy votes in a whine about being "allowed" to criticize. wtf?

                      Then we get more of the anecdotal stat "facts" that continues to ignore any sound basketball reasoning in favour of stats, man, I'm talking about stats,,, no basketball, we're talking stats............ and so on. To no surprise, followed by a challenge to supply stats,,,,, not basketball reasoning,,,, we're talking stats, not basketball, stats are the thing!

                      "And for once I'd love to see him guard the other teams best perimeter player.... just once. Not hating, just saying"

                      Maybe he needs to actually watch more games, and/or know what he's seeing? DeMar does guard other teams' best perimeter player, particularly since Gay has been gone,,,,,, and during this streak. Not all the time, but for shit sake, what the hell is expected? He expects that in the first year of his $9.5M deal (not max, not franchise player $), he should be both carrying the burden of #1 option on offense, AND covering the defense on the best player, all the time,,,,,, and producing great stats while doing it? Whine, whine, whine because he isn't a LeBron? How many damn players in the league can you say are the #1 option on offense AND consistently cover the opponent's best player? Except for the elite of the elite, that's a recipe for driving a kid into the ground. They're not effing robots! It's an illness, I tell ya. An illness, sadly enabled by many here.
                      LOL, why bother writing a novel in response to a guy you know has blocked you?

                      It's almost like you enjoy arguing......but nah, that can't be it.

                      Comment


                      • Nilanka wrote: View Post
                        LOL, why bother writing a novel in response to a guy you know has blocked you?

                        It's almost like you enjoy arguing......but nah, that can't be it.
                        Oh, I don't know. Perhaps for people that are reading? Doh, it's a forum, not a bunch of IMs. You seemed to have enjoyed it. Now, have you anything relevant to say about the comments, or that which I commented on, or just thought you weasel in and contribute nothing but cheap snide remarks?

                        Comment


                        • The one thing about this article i did not understand was why would the raptors trade Ross for Afflalo....? lool
                          "Both teams played hard my man" - Sheed

                          Comment


                          • JawsGT wrote: View Post
                            I don't understand why people think Demar is no good without the ball, and that he can only be 'effective' with the ball in his hands. Demar's best stretch this season was when Rudy was here and he was playing off the ball more. More catch and shoots, especially in the corner, and when he did create for himself it was more often in the post.

                            He is actually much better and a more efficient and impactful player when he plays off the ball. The Raps lost when Demar played his best was because, IMO, because Rudy was the first option, and he completely sucked in that role, while Demar was more suited to that secondary role than the primary role he is in now. Furthermore, and more importantly, while Rudy was here neither JV, Amir, Lowry, or even Ross were engaged and playing well, which probably had more impact on the teams success than Demar's individual performances. Remove Rudy, and now the ball moves around the court and all our starters have stepped up to play hard, engaged basketball. Amir and JV are no longer just perimeter screeners, they are actually involved more in the offense and getting touches, and as such as playing better.

                            the difference here is night and day, and that was on Rudy's shoulders. He was the inefficient chucking black hole, and thank the lord he is gone. Now we got some interesting basketball to watch.

                            Nonetheless, Demar is now back into that primary scoring role, which most of us know isn't the best option for Demar. As such, his shot selection and efficiency have dropped. I think Nosike's point is a valid one. Although it may be his choice, as Matt said, to take some of those inefficient 2's, he is the guy that is expected to take those on this team, not Ross, Amir, JV, Salmons. Lowry is the only other option, and if he did more of that, his percentages would suffer as well. At times, someone on the team is going to have to take the tough shot, and that burden is on Demar.

                            I think he should get back to posting up more. no doubt he gets doubled, and this would help open things up more for others. He would be more effective creating for others in the post than off the dribble IMO. And I also think he needs to use his screens better (when he has the ball). Too often he seems to think of them as a decoy and then just takes a step to the side for a long two. Step back for three or use the screen to drive to the basket or a pull up within 15 ft is even ok. This is just what I see, I have no lovely stats to back any of this up.

                            Demar is not gonna be an efficient player as the number one offensive option, but playing off the ball he can be very good.
                            First up, thanks for the civil discussion Jaws. I respect the other opinions presented on DeRozan. It is just nice reading counter points that avoid personal jabs and sarcastic undertones.... cheers to you.

                            Bold 1: I agree that was DeMar's best stretch of the season. However, it was also the Raptors worst. Was it Rudy? Was it coaching? I'm not sure. But even though he played off the ball it was within the context of "my turn, your turn" basketball. But even if he has been so successful shooting in the corners and posting up during that time, where is it gone since Rudy left? You raise some really good points on Gay. I'm not sure what the answers are to be honest. I don't agree with any comparison of DeRozan to Bargnani for obvious reasons: DeRozan cares A LOT and puts the work in. However they are both inefficient volume shooters and I wonder if Bargnani's amazing 13 game stretch is in any way comparable to DeRozan's stretch of extremely efficient scoring earlier this season.

                            Bold 2: I agree - even without the lovely stats.


                            Your last line is what worries me. Making the assumption he can play off the ball and be very good, can his individual success lead to team success? The times we've seen a healthy Bargnani and Gay says no (granted they are incredibly flawed first options). At the end of the day it is the team success that is what matters as I"m sure anyone other than the biggest 'DD fanboy' (not a dig at anyone here, in particular) would agree. The other aspects he brings to the game are still very much average at best and if he isn't scoring, what is he doing? The second reason for worry is, assuming DD is not the #1 option, how do you get the #1 option? He is likely one of those players good enough to keep you stuck in the middle so the draft is out, free agency is out because he is not the type of talent to attract another star, so that leaves the trade route - but what do you give up if you are building through the draft? Draft picks are out. Only real tradable assets Raptors have are Lowry, Amir, DeRozan, JV, and Ross.... basically their core.


                            This leads me to look at the teams in the league currently over .500. All those teams are led by incredibly dynamic and efficient players:

                            OKC - Durant/Westbrook
                            Indiana - George
                            Miami - LBJ/Wade/Bosh
                            San Antonio - Parker/Manu/Duncan
                            Portland - Lillard/Aldridge
                            Clippers - Griffin/Paul
                            Houston - Harden
                            Phoenix - Dragic/Beldsoe
                            Golden State - Curry
                            Dallas - Dirk
                            Atlanta - Millsap/Horford


                            When you look at those teams, you also have multiple dynamic and efficient players as 2nd and 3rd options. I don't think you can call DeRozan dynamic and the efficiency is still an unknown, in my opinion. I only see p00ka's comments when someone else replies with quote to him. I see he is going on and on about the "he is what he is comments" and to some extent rightfully so. However stats nor the eye test do not back up the claims he has added a whole new level to his game. The reality is he is still an inefficient volume shooter - maybe even a little bit worse when it comes to efficiency - who has brought his assisting others up to about average and improved getting to the line (likely strength improvement). But I've always said stats are not the be all and end all. There is no question he carries himself with more confidence and his increased strength/maturity has had a positive impact on his game. I'm pleasantly surprised by that growth. In that sense, I have no problem admitting I was wrong. Contrary to some people's posts here, one can't be right about everything. I've never claimed to be right about everything. I give opinions with the rationale behind them - if you agree great, if you disagree I look forward to a rational counter argument. I've been wrong before, I am wrong about DeRozan "is what he is" to some extent but the inefficient volume shooter remains fully intact, and *newsflash* I'll likely be wrong about stuff in the future. *Warning: Shameless pat on the back coming* Around these parts I think that makes me a real minority. I've yet to see any of these posters claiming the greatness that is DeRozan back it up with anything other than their opinions passed as fact. I'm still with OldSkool waiting for a post that logically proves how good DeRozan actually is. When others were boasting his great rebounding/passing/shooting pre-Gay trade, my counter has always been give it time because he has shown incredible stretches in the past. Consistency has been and continues to be his issue. I don't see the need to wait for the previously mentioned 40 games for this very reason. He has already had an 8-10 cold streak, an 8-10 game hot streak, and another 10 game cold streak. The consistency is not there.



                            I have not wavered in my opinion of tanking... that is probably an issue overall with me. There are many ways to build a team but the Raptors - even with DeRozan - are still faced with lacking the elite talent needed to win. You can find that talent anywhere in the draft but the probabilities are highest at the top. Free agency is not going to happen until the roster has talent that other talent wants to play with. I don't think DeRozan is that type of talent. The play of Ross and JV of late only strengthens resolve to start asset accumulation, ridding long term commitments, and adding value contracts.


                            *I apologize if this is all over the place. I've been trying to type this response for the better part of 5 hours. Life keeps interrupting the Republic.*

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                            • p00ka wrote: View Post
                              Do video games supply stats too? That kidding (sorta) aside, one of the best posts I've seen on here!



                              I think you already did make that point. The question is what is the "...I don't think..." based on? It's a question because your opinion really doesn't seem to be based on understanding of the game, as in it's way off. Hey, it's your opinion though, so cool. It's just some may see it as "looking at basketball like it's a video game"~Shrub
                              And to be frank, I'll freely admit that I may be way off about all this. This is an opinion based 100% on gut instinct - hopefully, an instinct that's being informed by my years of NBA fandom, but yes, maybe an entirely useless, misinformed instinct. Until it goes away though, I'll probably keep chiming in on Demar from time to time. Apologies in advance to anyone who disagrees.
                              "Stop eating your sushi."
                              "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                              "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                              - Jack Armstrong

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                              • I'm not sure why Matt is calling lamarcus Aldridge efficient when his true shooting percentage (51.4%) is about the same as Derozans (51.5%), and he's a bigman playing off an all star point guard, not to mention an excellent two way wing pairing in batum and Wesley Matthews.

                                Same goes off Westbrook at 51.8%.
                                Last edited by Masai Ujiri; Tue Dec 31, 2013, 08:58 PM.

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