The Lockout & the Raptors: Players approve CBA, Owners too! (1944)

[jimmie]

Sonny playing PF? tsk tsk tsk

This is cool, a side effect of this fiasco that the players couldn't have expected given their egos. My friends and I who played ball growing up have been saying it for years: the Euroleague isn't "worse", it's just "different". In fact, athleticism aside, it might actually be "better" -- in that Euro players are schooled on the fundamentals much more than NCAA/NBA players are, and play systems much more consistently and with greater discipline. One on one players don't thrive in Euroleague. I'm sure all of these guys went there thinking they'd be stars, but they may end up doing more damage to their reputation than anything.

[mcHAPPY]

This is cool, a side effect of this fiasco that the players couldn't have expected given their egos. My friends and I who played ball growing up have been saying it for years: the Euroleague isn't "worse", it's just "different". In fact, athleticism aside, it might actually be "better" -- in that Euro players are schooled on the fundamentals much more than NCAA/NBA players are, and play systems much more consistently and with greater discipline. One on one players don't thrive in Euroleague. I'm sure all of these guys went there thinking they'd be stars, but they may end up doing more damage to their reputation than anything.

Great points. Overall, I agree.

It is very aggravating, to me, to read about players who are advocating for continued guaranteed contracts and the majority of the revenues showing up to foreign leagues out of shape. A total lack of professionalism in my opinion and does nothing, for me as a fan, to feel any sense of sympathy for their "blood issues".

[mcHAPPY]

Via Twitter:

alanhahn RT @wchoops: @alanhahn expecting a near agreement to get done by tues eve, progress is being made on some key areas, tension is easing

There.... I jinxed it.

[Joey]

Wow .. this all sounds a little too good to be true .. someones going to end up dying in one of the meeting or something. haha

[mcHAPPY]

EW YORK -- NBA owners and players failed to reach a new labor deal after about seven hours of talks Saturday, focused mostly on the league's salary cap structure.

The sides will meet again Monday, though time is getting short to save the start of the regular season -- scheduled to begin on Nov. 1 -- and neither side sounds optimistic.

"I wouldn't say there was any progress. What happened was, they put some concepts up, we put some concepts up, and we're still miles apart," union executive director Billy Hunter said. "There's a huge bridge, gap, that I don't know if we're going to be able to close it or not."

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/70...et-seven-hours

Commissioner David Stern said he had nothing to announce in terms of cancellations. But the remainder of the preseason schedule is in jeopardy -- some games already have been canceled -- and given there hasn't been the progress he wanted this weekend, the regular-season games could now be threatened, too.

"Our desire would be to not cancel, and we had been hopeful that this weekend would be a broader marker, but for reasons which we understand, the players suggested that we resume on Monday, and we said 'fine," Stern said.

Stern did indicate some level of progress, saying: "We're not near anything, but wherever that is, we're closer than we were before."

The sides will meet in small groups, then bring large groups back for another meeting Tuesday.

"I can't necessarily characterize things as we made progress and that I'm somehow more optimistic than I was yesterday," union president Derek Fisher of the Lakers said. "The reality is we still have an extremely long way to go. Even with the exchanges that we made today, there's still huge gaps in what we've proposed compared to what they proposed, and then obviously we still have the economics that are just kind of sitting out there waiting for us to tackle. So there's a lot of work left to be done, but we'll keep at this."

Fisher said the players basically gave the owners a list of things they wanted kept in the next cap, likely things such as the midlevel and Larry Bird exceptions that allow teams to exceed the cap. However, the league is looking for ways to keep costs down for owners, and those items are easy targets.

Hunter said he assumed it would be possible to save the entire season if the sides agreed to a deal by the middle of next week. But that will be difficult, given it could take as much as month between an agreement being reached and the time games could be played, so that free agency and exhibition games can first take place.

Hunter added the union hadn't even signed off on the league's plan for enhanced revenue sharing among teams, after Stern indicated Friday that players would be OK with it.

But though Stern had warned of "enormous consequences" of not making significant progress toward a deal this weekend, he is remaining hopeful.

"If we didn't think that there was any hope, we wouldn't be scheduling the meetings," he said. "But that's the best I would say right now."

Told you I Jinxed it. 7 hours today and nothing positive coming out.

Rulings from the labour board are needed to make one side blink - depending on the verdict of course.

I feel confident in saying whatever is being offered now is better than what the players will eventually settle for - only my opinion.

[Soft Euro]

This is cool, a side effect of this fiasco that the players couldn't have expected given their egos. My friends and I who played ball growing up have been saying it for years: the Euroleague isn't "worse", it's just "different". In fact, athleticism aside, it might actually be "better" -- in that Euro players are schooled on the fundamentals much more than NCAA/NBA players are, and play systems much more consistently and with greater discipline. One on one players don't thrive in Euroleague. I'm sure all of these guys went there thinking they'd be stars, but they may end up doing more damage to their reputation than anything.

I always say "only proven Euro-talent please!" You never know how nba play translates to the Euroleague...

[irgigi]

Sonny playing PF? tsk tsk tsk

He was only playing PF on practise games while some C/PF was not yet on team after Eurobasket.

Now he's SF and he seems to be translating well to euro. 13pts/7rebs, but terrible Ft shooting lawson in the same game 3pts but 5 rebs Boxscore here

[mcHAPPY]

Players offered 53% BRI

Owners came back with 47%

No more negotiations scheduled.

Rest of preseason will be gone and, likely, start of regular season.

Hopefully courts start making rulings which might push the agenda one way or the other.

This is more than owners and players, screw them all really. There are a lot of people who rely on the spin off - everyday people. Tough situation for them to be in.... kind of puts a fan's situation in to perspective.

[Apollo]

It looks like I'm not going to get what I wanted to see happen if the players cave soon but there are many positives for we, the fans.

• A provision to allow each team to release one player via the so-called "amnesty" clause and gain both salary-cap and luxury-tax relief when that player's cap number is removed from the books

This should be called the "Eddy Curry clause". I think this one is excellent but it's going to create even more chaos going into a highly shortened free agency period. For a guy like Colangelo, who is probably under cap by at least $10M and then able to create around another $10M by dropping a guy like Calderon, well, strap yourself in for a pretty exciting ride Raptors fans.

• Limiting Larry Bird rights -- which enable teams to exceed the salary cap to re-sign their own free agents -- to one player per team per season

• Reducing the annual mid-level exception, which was valued at $5.8 million last season, to roughly $3 million annually and limiting mid-level contracts to a maximum of two or three seasons in length as opposed to the current maximum of five seasons

I think this is excellent. In my opinion many of the guys who were getting the full MLE weren't living up to their price tag. More importantly, lowering the amount allows the small markets to better compete against the big markets in free agency. This will also help teams retain role players because after a career season for a role player he's not going to be able to go out and get $6M/yr.

• The abolition of sign-and-trades

Hallelujah, because in my personal opinion S&T was highly detrimental to the game as a whole. If players want to bail on their team then take the convenience away from them and take a nice chunk of the reward away from them. Now if Paul wants to bail on the Hornets for NYC he's going to have to take a severe pay cut. I think this rule will keep Paul where he is and that's good for the game. The small markets don't serve the role as "farm team" as much with such a rule in place and I'm all for that.

• Significant reductions in maximum salaries and annual raises and a 5 percent rollbacks on current contracts

I'm loving this as well. The max contracts can be killers. Many times a team is forced to choose between losing their star player (which the whole business is built around and dependent upon to maintain the current revenues) or let him walk and risk taking a substantial hit at the gate, in merchandizing and in television revenues. Reducing the max contracts takes away some of the risk. What I do hope though is that the team holding rights to a player can still offer more than other teams. I think this one will pass because the NBAPA is made up of over 450 players and for 95% of them this has not a whole lot of affect on what they will make.

• The institution of a sliding "Supertax" that would charge teams $2 in luxury tax for every dollar over $70 million in payroll, $3 for every dollar over $75 million in payroll and $4 for every dollar for teams with payrolls above $80 million

Only four teams would have been paying this escalating luxury tax last season. This isn't going to change the game, just rain on the parade of Buss and Cuban a little. I think both those guys can afford to pay those steep prices by the way...

[Apollo]

Owners are willing to do 50/50 split. Stern made that clear. Players are at 53 pct. Monday is the deadline to save the start of the season.

Source: Twitter @sheridanhoops

[planetmars]

This should be called the "Eddy Curry clause". I think this one is excellent but it's going to create even more chaos going into a highly shortened free agency period. For a guy like Colangelo, who is probably under cap by at least $10M and then able to create around another $10M by dropping a guy like Calderon, well, strap yourself in for a pretty exciting ride Raptors fans.

I hope that Bryan doesn't start becoming a big buyer/spender for all the amnesty rejects from other teams. I say save the cap space and wait until 2012 to start using it. We'd be able to afford max contracts on guys like Paul or Howard, or use the extra money to make some lop-sided trades in the Raps favour that could include someone like Bargnani for example.

The amnesty rule is nice, but it will become more difficult for teams to retain the top free agents outside of the amnesty guys. I can see Gasol, Nene or Chandler getting some more attention from a lot of teams that could not afford them prior to this clause being added.

[mcHAPPY]

Warning, all my opinions are forthcoming.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_yl...meeting_100411

Fisher said the players have agreed to reduce their share of the league’s basketball-related income from 57 percent in the previous collective bargaining agreement to 53. Union executive director Billy Hunter said the owners’ latest proposal had the players receiving 47 percent of the BRI, but Stern said the two sides discussed a 50-50 revenue split – “a concept, not an offer,” Stern said – that the players didn’t accept.

CBSSports.com reported that Stern proposed a split that would have guaranteed the players no worse than 49 percent with a cap of 51 percent. The owners were reportedly prepared to sign off on the offer when the players proposed a deal that would have guaranteed them a minimum of 51 percent with a cap of 53. The league, CBSSports.com reported, rejected that offer.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.c...-given-enough/

In letter union sent to players today, Hunter and Fisher say: “Yesterday, the owners gave us an opportunity to back down. We refused.”… “Reducing our share of BRI by 7 points to 50% — a level we have not received since the early 1990′s — is not a fair split.”

In letter Y! obtained, Hunter reminds players that they’ve offered owners $185M per year giveback worth $1.1 billion over 6 year deal…. “The clear message we have received from the players, and the one we will heed, is not to back down.”

The contention of "we have not received that amount since the early 1990's" does not sound like a sound business decision. Times change, situations change, circumstances change. It actually sounds quite childish to be using that as an excuse. Next up is "well everybody else is doing it" I guess.

If the league offers a 50/50 split minimum guaranteed with a cap at 51.5 and the players do not accept, I hope they are locked out for the year. No season, no paycheques - screw you. If the owners do not make the offer, I hope they cancel the season and bad things happen to them as well - screw you, too.

It sounds like everything else is settled except this.

[slaw]

It sounds like everything else is settled except this.

But it was ever the only real issue. All of the talk of hard caps was simply to get the players to move on the BRI split and all this other nonsense (Bird, S&T, etc.) is immaterial compared to the BRI split because that split drives everything. The cap numbers, the salary numbers - everything is driven off the BRI number. If there is a 50/50 split, that's a greater than $2 billion shift in cash from players to owners over the life of the CBA. That's an enormous top-line gain for owners and a huge bottom line loss for players. I would guess that's about as much money as they'll lose if the entire season is cancelled. Maybe more.

[mcHAPPY]

But it was ever the only real issue. All of the talk of hard caps was simply to get the players to move on the BRI split and all this other nonsense (Bird, S&T, etc.) is immaterial compared to the BRI split because that split drives everything. The cap numbers, the salary numbers - everything is driven off the BRI number. If there is a 50/50 split, that's a greater than $2 billion shift in cash from players to owners over the life of the CBA. That's an enormous top-line gain for owners and a huge bottom line loss for players. I would guess that's about as much money as they'll lose if the entire season is cancelled. Maybe more.

Go back to previous posts. There were three main issues left to resolve over the weekend. BRI is definitely the most divisive in the negotiations. While none of the other issues are as important as the BRI they certainly held value and meaning for owners and players alike.

[Apollo]

I hope that Bryan doesn't start becoming a big buyer/spender for all the amnesty rejects from other teams. I say save the cap space and wait until 2012 to start using it. We'd be able to afford max contracts on guys like Paul or Howard, or use the extra money to make some lop-sided trades in the Raps favour that could include someone like Bargnani for example.

The amnesty rule is nice, but it will become more difficult for teams to retain the top free agents outside of the amnesty guys. I can see Gasol, Nene or Chandler getting some more attention from a lot of teams that could not afford them prior to this clause being added.

I don't think Bargnani will be in the guillotine for multiple reasons. First off he's super talented, young and seven foot. He has value to this team and other teams. Maybe Casey can get through to him. He's never had a defensive specialist of this level working with him night and day... I'm as skeptical as the next fan but it seems like we're heading towards finding out for sure. Not only that but if they claw back existing contracts his contract drops $500K this season, $550K next season and $600k in the final season. Furthermore I feel his market value is higher than his Raptors fan value. He's an asset, one of the biggest on the team, his contract is manageable and so they're not going to cut him. Not to mention based on what Casey and Colangelo have said over the summer they're going to give Bargnani a good run at PF. He could be on his last chance depending on who you talk to but one last chance is long enough to keep him off the chopping block at the least.