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Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

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  • Apollo wrote: View Post
    Well based on how things are going so far you're going to be greatly disappointed because I don't think you're going to get the stinker you really wish to see.

    And the Raptors have rebuilt. It happened immediately after Carter left and again when Colangelo came in. If you disagree then go compare the rosters and then try to tell me otherwise.

    Babcock made a bunch of changes and failed; he used a bunch of lotto picks. Drastic changes didn't occur right away due to bad contracts but from his start to his finish, that roster turned over a lot.

    Colangelo made a bunch of changes and failed; he used a bunch of lotto picks and trades.
    I don't either - and that is partly the problem.

    But I think if the Raptors are sitting 21W-23L 45 games in to the season with a step forward taken by JV then the writing will be on the wall to everyone what the potential is for this team as currently constructed.

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    • Apollo wrote: View Post

      If he was making plays for the lotto he wouldn't be signing guys who fit Casey's system perfectly and fill a big need. That signing was counter to tanking but makes a lot of sense to a team looking to improve over time and see that his coach has the pieces he needs for his system to run.
      Very true.

      Another truth is the team was extremely weak at backup PG last season and Buycks is not a sure fire upgrade considering he has no NBA experience.

      I have a feeling a lot of these topics will be hit many thousands of more times between now and February trade deadline. You can argue with others (or yourself in my case) until you are blue in the face which way MU is looking to go (keep or trade Gay/Lowry/DD). Both sides have solid arguments in my opinion.

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      • Apollo wrote: View Post
        No, I'm just trying to get the point across as to the definition of "tank" because some people sound confused.
        No, you're trying to get people to follow your definition of "tanking" as it pertains to a poll with only 2 options in a thread about rebuilding or retooling. In combating all of my posts, you've overlooked that I haven't said tank, but rather said rebuild, overhaul, etc because I don't think tanking is an actual strategic option. But accepting your teams limitations and positioning it for the best moving forward, I call that building, but you want to fit it into the 2 category poll so you call it tanking.
        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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        • Tanking Barometer

          Look at the moves of each team and then ask this question:
          If the lotto was for 30 teams, each team having equal odds, would [Insert Team] have made those same moves?

          Comment


          • Matt52 wrote: View Post
            Very true.

            Another truth is the team was extremely weak at backup PG last season and Buycks is not a sure fire upgrade considering he has no NBA experience.

            I have a feeling a lot of these topics will be hit many thousands of more times between now and February trade deadline. You can argue with others (or yourself in my case) until you are blue in the face which way MU is looking to go (keep or trade Gay/Lowry/DD). Both sides have solid arguments in my opinion.
            The PG spot is scary thin looking right now. When last season ended, the wish list was 3 things, a low post scorer, better 3 pt shooting and a back-up PG. Of those 3 things, we've added Steve Novak for 3pt shooting, but we still don't have a low post scorer (hoping for JV to consistently command double-teams in year 2 is a lot to ask) and we have no real back-up PG.
            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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            • Apollo wrote: View Post
              Look at the moves of each team and then ask this question:
              If the lotto was for 30 teams, each team having equal odds, would [Insert Team] have made those same moves?
              If a frog had wings it wouldn't bump its ass when it hopped, so what's the point? The real world of the NBA not everything is equal. Not all teams have equal chance in the lottery just as not all teams are going to sign marquee free agents.
              Heir, Prince of Cambridge

              If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

              Comment


              • Axel wrote: View Post
                No, you're trying to get people to follow your definition of "tanking" as it pertains to a poll with only 2 options in a thread about rebuilding or retooling. In combating all of my posts, you've overlooked that I haven't said tank, but rather said rebuild, overhaul, etc because I don't think tanking is an actual strategic option. But accepting your teams limitations and positioning it for the best moving forward, I call that building, but you want to fit it into the 2 category poll so you call it tanking.
                The thread title says that now but go look at the original post and look at the poll. I've approached this thread from the original theme and that was tanking vs. something else. If you're for something else then that's cool. I'm for something else as well.

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                • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  But I think if the Raptors are sitting 21W-23L 45 games in to the season with a step forward taken by JV then the writing will be on the wall to everyone what the potential is for this team as currently constructed.
                  Of course, the downside of having certainty is that everybody else will know the potential of our trade pieces at that point and we're basically guaranteed to get less value.

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                  • Apollo wrote: View Post
                    The thread title says that now but go look at the original post and look at the poll. I've approached this thread from the original theme and that was tanking vs. something else. If you're for something else then that's cool. I'm for something else as well.
                    The original post and poll are not the same.

                    NoBan did the OP. NoBan's suggestions for tanking are exactly what I would not do. I'd rather be a tweaker (and even keep DD!) than do those.

                    I did the poll that was merged in to this thread. This is the thread the poll came from:

                    http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...l=1#post219537

                    Comment


                    • Axel wrote: View Post
                      If a frog had wings it wouldn't bump its ass when it hopped, so what's the point? The real world of the NBA not everything is equal. Not all teams have equal chance in the lottery just as not all teams are going to sign marquee free agents.
                      That was my cap stone to my input on the tanking topic. I'm done with it.

                      Free agent won't come here because this team has stank for so long. This team isn't going to retain stars because this team continues to stink and the track record is not encouraging. They gotta get the stink out and keep it out. Then one day down the line the Raptors won't be known as an unreliable place for players to pursue their career aspirations. Consistently winning needs to be one of their long term priorities and it needs to happen soon, maybe not this coming season but soon; swinging for the fences at the risk of paying a large price if it doesn't work out must die with Colangelo's job in Toronto. I consider shooting for the #1 pick as swinging for the fences unless it's via trade(probably impossible).

                      If I were an NBA player I wouldn't sign here either. Who wants to play their career on a stinker?

                      Matt52 wrote: View Post
                      The original post and poll are not the same.

                      NoBan did the OP. NoBan's suggestions for tanking are exactly what I would not do. I'd rather be a tweaker (and even keep DD!) than do those.

                      I did the poll that was merged in to this thread. This is the thread the poll came from:

                      http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...l=1#post219537
                      Multiple threads have been merged so the theme gets twisted or is at the least confusing.

                      Comment


                      • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                        I don't either - and that is partly the problem.

                        But I think if the Raptors are sitting 21W-23L 45 games in to the season with a step forward taken by JV then the writing will be on the wall to everyone what the potential is for this team as currently constructed.
                        I think that alone sums up Masai's master plan.....with maybe a few less games. See if the nugget (no pun intended) of a team is there over 30 games. If we're .600 or better, let it grow. .500 doesn't cut it. Anything less and it's a fire sale with enough time left in the season to sink organically. Although given our luck, our first thirty games will probably include 28 at home against Boston, Philly, Phoenix and Utah.

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                        • So considering all mi is cra cra mo fo NoBan are for tanking meaning getting assets for raptor parts, what is your take on that subject?

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                          • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                            So considering all mi is cra cra mo fo NoBan are for tanking meaning getting assets for raptor parts, what is your take on that subject?
                            Let this be a lesson to not text and talk.

                            @Apollo:

                            So considering the OP is cra cra and is the epitome of tanking in all the worst possible ways, what is your take on the subject with a slant that sees actual assets returned rather just a horrible season and cap space afterwards?

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                            • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              Another truth is the team was extremely weak at backup PG last season and Buycks is not a sure fire upgrade considering he has no NBA experience.
                              Well he's not finished yet and maybe he didn't like the options on the market? Maybe he sees something in Buycks that makes him confident he can be the second string PG? Hard to say. I do know what Tyler is though and he will help the boys in the paint a lot.

                              Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              I have a feeling a lot of these topics will be hit many thousands of more times between now and February trade deadline. You can argue with others (or yourself in my case) until you are blue in the face which way MU is looking to go (keep or trade Gay/Lowry/DD). Both sides have solid arguments in my opinion.
                              I have a feeling you're right.

                              I'm not even sure what the sides are. I'm part of the camp who wants to see Ujiri make the right long term moves but not join in on the intentional race to the bottom of the standings; if the Raptors end up there anyway so be it but I don't how that can happen right now unless Ujiri goes against his own words and essentially dumps assets and trading Gay for expiring contracts and late first rounders is a dump in my opinion... And again, I don't want to see them dump because I think it's tanking.

                              One more thought. Ujiri might be thinking big picture with Gay. Gay will be of most value when he's on his final year because he's then marketable to more teams and greater demand means greater return on asset.

                              Comment


                              • Apollo wrote: View Post
                                I have a feeling you're right.

                                I'm not even sure what the sides are. I'm part of the camp who wants to see Ujiri make the right long term moves but not join in on the intentional race to the bottom of the standings; if the Raptors end up there anyway so be it but I don't how that can happen right now unless Ujiri goes against his own words and essentially dumps assets and trading him for expiring contracts and late first rounders is a dump in my opinion... And again, I don't want to see them dump because I think it's tanking.
                                Bold 1: I think you can make the right long term moves and not join intentional race to bottom. Maybe I'm idealistic or naive or foolish or worse.


                                Bold 2: I agree. However, I think any deal with Masai returns more than expiring crap and late first rounders. Charlotte and Cleveland are the teams to watch in my opinion.

                                What would you think of the imaginary trade I proposed: Kemba/Biyombo/Gordon (expiring)/Detroit 1st/Portland 1st for Lowry/Gay.

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