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  • tbihis wrote: View Post
    im just trying to exaggerate the fact that scoring is crucial, just as the same way youre exaggerating that defense is crucial. how about we flip it, lets say with barnes, battier, perkins or artest we expect them to defend, night in and night out, say with reggie evans, we expect him to rebound and rebound, but yet we dont expect them to score 20pts a game? i mean what we get from them pts wise we'll take, but theyre not "expected" to score. Cant we do the same way with Bargnani? i mean Artest is a SF, and lebron is a SF and he puts up 25/7/7 on a given night....same with barnes and battier....i mean they all contribute defensive and thats what gets wins, as you say, but should we expect them to score as the same token we expect bargnani to rebound and defend?

    if a team can get away with a guard not defending then if a guard defends extremely well, can we get away with a center not defending as much since offensive players will not be able to reach the basket considering your guards are extremely good defenders?
    No!!! My God, this is the point here. Bargnani does not, and NEVER will score at an efficient enough rate to justify playing him 35 minutes a game.

    He's not just a poor rebounder, he's one of the worst ever. You DO NOT just ignore things like that.

    There is not being enough accountablilty for Bargs, that why Liston wrote that entire article, it's why fans are calling for his head. He'll have another nice scoring stretch, but the vast majority of fans won't care anymore until he becomes a passable defender and rebounder. He's does not do the necessary core skill for his position, whether he plays at the 4 or 5 he'll still get exposed.

    We can put freaking Dwight beside him, and he'll still get exposed on the defensive end.

    Comment


    • I'm uncomfortable with the statements that "Andrea is a scorer". He's a low-efficiency scorer who takes a lot of shots.

      For me a true scorer is a high-efficiency scorer. Someone who ... when the ball goes up ... you feel comfortable it is going into the basket. Compare the true shooting percentage of people like Hedo Turkoglu (.521) or Chris Bosh (.504) to that of Andrea Bargnani (.467).
      Last edited by Kuh; Mon Jan 31, 2011, 02:56 PM.

      Comment


      • WhatWhat wrote: View Post
        No!!! My God, this is the point here. Bargnani does not, and NEVER will score at an efficient enough rate to justify playing him 35 minutes a game.

        He's not just a poor rebounder, he's one of the worst ever. You DO NOT just ignore things like that.

        There is not being enough accountablilty for Bargs, that why Liston wrote that entire article, it's why fans are calling for his head. He'll have another nice scoring stretch, but the vast majority of fans won't care anymore until he becomes a passable defender and rebounder. He's does not do the necessary core skill for his position, whether he plays at the 4 or 5 he'll still get exposed.

        We can put freaking Dwight beside him, and he'll still get exposed on the defensive end.
        i wouldnt say NEVER. I think he gets a free pass this year, with him being the focal point of offense, unlike last year when he pretty much played off of Bosh. This year teams have been giving him more attention on D considering he is the "main" guy for the Raps.

        I dont know if he's the worst ever, he aint one of the best either, lets just settle for decent, shall we?

        With this paragraph i totally agree. Instead of making him accountable for his rebounding, they gave him reggie who basically rebounds for him. But what he is now is what we got. plain and simple. most if not all the guys here are saying he's a lost cause when it comes to rebounding and defense, but his scoring abilities is undeniable. so get a defensive big to complement his skills.

        i dont know about his statement. Rashard Lewis played with Dwight and they took that Magic team to the finals, and every year after they made it deep into the playoffs. Is Lewis a much better defensively than Bargs? I doubt it. Lewis got traded because of his massive contract, but if he had the contract like Bargs, im pretty sure the Magic will still keep him. He pulls opposing big men to the outside with his shooting, which allows Dwight to operate in the middle. Now defensively, Bargs is bigger than Rashard and any tiny, little-itty bit thing he can do on defense (as you guys point out he so bad defensively) will probably be good enough beside Dwight.

        Comment


        • Kuh wrote: View Post
          I'm uncomfortable with the statements that "Andrea is a scorer". He's a low-efficiency scorer who takes a lot of shots.
          might be a little bit incorrect:

          bargnani - 8 of 18 = 45%
          kobe - 9 of 19 = 46%
          durant - 8 of 19 = 45%

          youre probably thinking of:

          roy - 5 of 14 = 39%
          wall - 5 of 13 = 39%

          Comment


          • Dont get me wrong here guys, i dont have a man-crush on bargs.

            If he were to be packaged on a deal that would get us John Wall or Derrick Rose or Dirk i wouldnt even give him a second look, but the fact of the matter is, those deals aint happening and for the meantime we are stuck with bargs so we gotta deal with that. love your own so to speak. and if there is a possibility that we can get those guys without including bargs then im all for it as well.

            i just dont fancy tags such as "worst" rebounder ever or "worst" defensive player.....when you think of worst, araujo comes to mind (yeah i really hate that guy). but Bargs aint the worst, not the best either. average or maybe a little bit above average.

            but hey, everybody is entitled to their own opinion. ill just rebutt it if i dont like it, hehehe

            Comment


            • WhatWhat wrote: View Post
              No!!! My God, this is the point here. Bargnani does not, and NEVER will score at an efficient enough rate to justify playing him 35 minutes a game.

              He's not just a poor rebounder, he's one of the worst ever. You DO NOT just ignore things like that.

              There is not being enough accountablilty for Bargs, that why Liston wrote that entire article, it's why fans are calling for his head. He'll have another nice scoring stretch, but the vast majority of fans won't care anymore until he becomes a passable defender and rebounder. He's does not do the necessary core skill for his position, whether he plays at the 4 or 5 he'll still get exposed.

              We can put freaking Dwight beside him, and he'll still get exposed on the defensive end.
              Geez buddy you make it seem as if every team in the nba has a shaq in his prime center who is exposing Bargnani night in night out. Bargnani is a top flight big man in this league and you are just ignorant and refuse to beleive this yet other teams know it and prepare for it.
              Instead of referencing an article from an outside obsever why don't you shed light on the fact that all star players such as lebron and dirk have raved about his talent, not mention all opposing coaches who need to game plan for him.

              Comment


              • tbihis wrote: View Post
                i wouldnt say NEVER. I think he gets a free pass this year, with him being the focal point of offense, unlike last year when he pretty much played off of Bosh. This year teams have been giving him more attention on D considering he is the "main" guy for the Raps.
                His efficiently hasn't taken nearly as huge of a hit as it should've with Bosh gone. He will never, never, ever score efficiently enough to justify his current level of defense (terrible) and rebounding (historically bad).

                tbihis wrote: View Post
                I dont know if he's the worst ever, he aint one of the best either, lets just settle for decent, shall we?
                Hell no, Bargnani is the 53rd worst player out of 616 players 6'10 and over in total rebounding rate ever. Cut that list down to just 7 footers and he's the 13th worst ever. Make it 7 foot players that have played more than 900 minutes in their career and he's the 3rd worst ever.

                tbihis wrote: View Post
                With this paragraph i totally agree. Instead of making him accountable for his rebounding, they gave him reggie who basically rebounds for him. But what he is now is what we got. plain and simple. most if not all the guys here are saying he's a lost cause when it comes to rebounding and defense, but his scoring abilities is undeniable. so get a defensive big to complement his skills.
                Trading him, and replace him with a good defensive center to play along with Amir or Davis and upgrading the 3, sounds much better than trying to hide Bargs on the defensive end.

                tbihis wrote: View Post
                i dont know about his statement. Rashard Lewis played with Dwight and they took that Magic team to the finals, and every year after they made it deep into the playoffs. Is Lewis a much better defensively than Bargs? I doubt it. Lewis got traded because of his massive contract, but if he had the contract like Bargs, im pretty sure the Magic will still keep him. He pulls opposing big men to the outside with his shooting, which allows Dwight to operate in the middle. Now defensively, Bargs is bigger than Rashard and any tiny, little-itty bit thing he can do on defense (as you guys point out he so bad defensively) will probably be good enough beside Dwight.
                Lewis doesn't have to anchor a defense, he is a better defender than Bargnani and the odds off us getting a center that defensively dominant is extremely unlikely.

                Bargnani's individual defense must get better if we're hellbent on starting him, no excuses. Put him with Dwight and he'll just get exposed on the perimeter. Run 1-4 pick and roll heavily to attack the defense. That's it.

                His good man to man defense from last year is gone. He does nothing well anymore but score, and the times he actually scores efficiently is sporadic at best. (Look at his offensive rating from game to game, 106 is the league average.)

                Again, the uproar isn't that he not scoring. It's because he's not refocusing his energy on playing better defense and rebounding more. Not only that, but he's shooting MORE and his rebounding and defense have gotten even worse. The uproar is because after 5 years in the league, there's no hope for him on the defensive end, barring an historically huge improvement the likes that we have never seen?

                Are there other bad defenders on the team? Yes, but that does not make it ok for Bargs not to be, and he's the worst on the team doesn't help either. But like we did with Bargnani we are giving the young players time to improve their defense. If in their 5th year, they don't show enough improvement, people will be all over them too.

                I'm done arguing about this.

                Comment


                • Before his knee problem he was peaking at about 48-49% well above avereage .. His recent struggles obviously relating to his injury have brought his shooting percentage down to respectability.

                  tbihis wrote: View Post
                  might be a little bit incorrect:

                  bargnani - 8 of 18 = 45%
                  kobe - 9 of 19 = 46%
                  durant - 8 of 19 = 45%

                  youre probably thinking of:

                  roy - 5 of 14 = 39%
                  wall - 5 of 13 = 39%

                  Comment


                  • You guys lay the hate on too hard on Bargs. He is playing through injuries and the flu. He is also not whining and bitching about it like Amir and Sonny. Give the guy a break. He is our best player and we are lucky to have him. Where would we be without him? Cleveland?

                    People that post on here about "Italian nepotism" like A-dub don't even realize they are making borderline/notborderline racist commetns that offend alot of readers.

                    Comment


                    • Yeah, critical reading key would be "I don't think it will happen", which is to say, I don't think it will happen.

                      "Usually, guys like Bargnani go to a team where they hold you accountable and sit on the bench [sic]"

                      I would contend that there have been few "guys like Bargnani" who have been "gambled" on. He is not a Darko, Kwame or Olowakandi. He has relatively unique offensive talents. At the risk of revealing that I don't, in fact, follow the NBA much, or watch any basketball at all, even, I would hypothetically state again - you put him on the Celtics and I think he would be deadly.

                      Comment


                      • WhatWhat wrote: View Post
                        His efficiently hasn't taken nearly as huge of a hit as it should've with Bosh gone. He will never, never, ever score efficiently enough to justify his current level of defense (terrible) and rebounding (historically bad).
                        i think without Bosh his efficiency has taken a hit. He's taken 6 more shots and 2 more FTs which means he's getting fouled more.

                        Hell no, Bargnani is the 53rd worst player out of 616 players 6'10 and over in total rebounding rate ever. Cut that list down to just 7 footers and he's the 13th worst ever. Make it 7 foot players that have played more than 900 minutes in their career and he's the 3rd worst ever.
                        i really dont know how to interpret this website, also says there Dirk is #70 so that means he's the 70th worst rebounder ever? and Rasho is 76th, so that means Rasho is a better rebounder than Dirk?

                        Trading him, and replace him with a good defensive center to play along with Amir or Davis and upgrading the 3, sounds much better than trying to hide Bargs on the defensive end.
                        i dont mind this if that center is able to compensate for Bargs scoring.

                        Lewis doesn't have to anchor a defense, he is a better defender than Bargnani and the odds off us getting a center that defensively dominant is extremely unlikely.
                        not sure how he is better defensively than bargs. ive seen him play, a lot. even during his seattle days and theyve always been a lottery team during when he was the "franchise player"

                        Bargnani's individual defense must get better if we're hellbent on starting him, no excuses. Put him with Dwight and he'll just get exposed on the perimeter. Run 1-4 pick and roll heavily to attack the defense. That's it.

                        His good man to man defense from last year is gone. He does nothing well anymore but score, and the times he actually scores efficiently is sporadic at best. (Look at his offensive rating from game to game, 106 is the league average.)

                        Again, the uproar isn't that he not scoring. It's because he's not refocusing his energy on playing better defense and rebounding more. Not only that, but he's shooting MORE and his rebounding and defense have gotten even worse. The uproar is because after 5 years in the league, there's no hope for him on the defensive end, barring an historically huge improvement the likes that we have never seen?

                        Are there other bad defenders on the team? Yes, but that does not make it ok for Bargs not to be, and he's the worst on the team doesn't help either. But like we did with Bargnani we are giving the young players time to improve their defense. If in their 5th year, they don't show enough improvement, people will be all over them too.
                        yes, that is the uproar but IMO, you can put him to good use with the right players around him, wait that sounds like im making him a franchise player, let me rephrase that, his abilities will be efficient when he's with the right mix of players. Trading for the sake of trading is not the answer.

                        I'm done arguing about this.
                        you sound just like my wife. haha.

                        Comment


                        • coastal wrote: View Post
                          Yeah, critical reading key would be "I don't think it will happen", which is to say, I don't think it will happen.

                          "Usually, guys like Bargnani go to a team where they hold you accountable and sit on the bench [sic]"

                          I would contend that there have been few "guys like Bargnani" who have been "gambled" on. He is not a Darko, Kwame or Olowakandi. He has relatively unique offensive talents. At the risk of revealing that I don't, in fact, follow the NBA much, or watch any basketball at all, even, I would hypothetically state again - you put him on the Celtics and I think he would be deadly.
                          Can't you put anyone of the Celtics and they would most likely perform better? I mean they have the players, the system, the history and the market...

                          Comment


                          • tbihis wrote: View Post
                            im just trying to exaggerate the fact that scoring is crucial, just as the same way youre exaggerating that defense is crucial. how about we flip it, lets say with barnes, battier, perkins or artest we expect them to defend, night in and night out, say with reggie evans, we expect him to rebound and rebound, but yet we dont expect them to score 20pts a game? i mean what we get from them pts wise we'll take, but theyre not "expected" to score. Cant we do the same way with Bargnani? i mean Artest is a SF, and lebron is a SF and he puts up 25/7/7 on a given night....same with barnes and battier....i mean they all contribute defensive and thats what gets wins, as you say, but should we expect them to score as the same token we expect bargnani to rebound and defend?

                            if a team can get away with a guard not defending then if a guard defends extremely well, can we get away with a center not defending as much since offensive players will not be able to reach the basket considering your guards are extremely good defenders?

                            im not being sarcastic here Tim, i just want to figure out how you would go about it if things were flipped.....coz i think we give way too much accountability on Bargs, which, if he is labeled as a franchise player then he should be accountable for, what if we shifted the accountability to other players and let Bargs do what he is best at?
                            The thing is, though, I'm not exaggerating the importance of defense. And you're not taking into consideration that there is such thing as a player who is actually a liability at something (Bargnani with defense) as opposed to a player who is just not really good at something (Kendrick Perkins and scoring). You see, Perkins isn't a liability on the offensive end. if you give him the ball, he's not going to turn it over and he can score well around the basket. This isn't Reggie Evans who has trouble hitting a layup. Evans is literally a liability on the offensive end of the court because he's such a poor shooter.

                            Besides, unlike scoring, defense is not something you can simply leave up to other players. As long as you aren't a liability on the offensive end, your man at least has to respect you. Shane Battier isn't going to score 20 ppg, but his defender simply can't leave him because he CAN hit an open shot. He's not a liability on offense. He's simply not a good scorer.

                            Bruce Bowen was a fantastic defender, but Pat Riley didn't re-sign Bruce Bowen because, while he was a great defender, he was a liability on the offensive end. Bowen worked on his shot and ended up leading the NBA in 3-point shooting one year. Without that shot, Bowen would never have had the career he did.

                            Dennis Rodman was obviously a superb defender and rebounder, and couldn't score at all, but he wasn't a liability on the offensive end for several reasons. The first is that he was such a good offensive rebounder that his man couldn't leave him on offense because he had to box him out or else give up loads of second chance points. Secondly, Rodman shot a decent percentage from the field. Unlike Reggie Evans, he's not going to miss a layup if you give him a pass under the basket. Thirdly, Rodman had a very high basketball IQ. He was an excellent passer and always knew when and where to cut and pick for his teammates.

                            What you need to realize is there have been plenty of players who were not good offensive players, but great defensive players, who played very large roles (often as starters) on Championship teams. There are VERY few players who were not good defenders, but great offensive players, who played a large role on a Championship team. Why do you think that is?
                            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                            • If Hibbert has a career night tonight, I'm logging in tomorrow for the fireworks!!!

                              BTW, I just noticed that the Cavs just suffered their 20th straight loss. I watch a lot of sport shows and I have to admit, it hasn't been front and center (sorry no pun intended as that word seems to bring out the worst in the fans in Raptorville).
                              Last edited by Balls of Steel; Mon Jan 31, 2011, 04:53 PM.
                              “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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                              • tbihis wrote: View Post
                                might be a little bit incorrect:

                                bargnani - 8 of 18 = 45%
                                kobe - 9 of 19 = 46%
                                durant - 8 of 19 = 45%

                                youre probably thinking of:

                                roy - 5 of 14 = 39%
                                wall - 5 of 13 = 39%
                                You're mistaking shooting percentage for efficiency. Bargnani takes 18 shots per game (8th in the league), yet only scores 21 ppg (17th in the league). Efficiency is how many points a player scores per shot. And Bargnani is not efficient. You can shoot a low percentage, but if you get to the line at a high rate (which Bargnani doesn't do), you can make up for it.
                                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                                Follow me on Twitter.

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