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  • #91
    Nilanka wrote: View Post
    While I agree that DeMar has improved year-by-year (by slowly adding pieces to his game), his overall impact remains the same. Hence why you don't see the "haters" caring much about his improvements.
    WOW....thanks for at least admitting that he is improving year-by-year (i'm being a bit sarcastic).

    Whether his overall impact is the same, is entirely based on opinion. However, let's just take a quick walk back down memory lane shall we?? In terms of tanking....aren't we in this position due to a few choices BC made?

    I won't call out Matt52 because he doesn't want to look back at his past opinions, only the future draft. However, I do recall having discussions with you regarding Kyle Lowry and Rudy Gay (whom you were extremely excited to acquire even before BC went and got him at the time). In your own words you said that they were wayyy better players than anyone we have. That they were soooo awesome (i think i'm paraphrasing here). I hate to say i told you so.....BUT Rudy has dissappointed in terms of his court vision, his shooting and creating for his teammates. The same goes for Lowry.

    You guys were on board with giving up our first round pick for Lowry. You guys were on board with trading for Rudy and his ridiculous contract. When it comes to Demar - Why should we listen to anything else you guys have to say??? LOL I'm just saying....

    In spite of our differences of opinions, some of you guys have brought A LOT to these forums. So believe me when i say I mean no disrespect. I learnt that you guys can be wrong.....BIG TIME. No more rash/knee-jerk decisions please!
    Last edited by special1; Mon Nov 18, 2013, 04:41 PM.

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    • #92
      special1 wrote: View Post
      WOW....thanks for at least admitting that he is improving year-by-year (i'm being a bit sarcastic).

      Whether his overall impact is the same, is entirely based on opinion. However, let's just take a quick walk back down memory lane shall we?? In terms of tanking....aren't we in this position due to a few choices BC made?

      I won't call out Matt52 because he doesn't want to look back at his past opinions, only the future draft. However, I do recall having discussions with you regarding Kyle Lowry and Rudy Gay (whom you were extremely excited to acquire even before BC went and got him at the time). In your own words you said that they were wayyy better players than anyone we have. That they were soooo awesome (i think i'm paraphrasing here). I hate to say i told you so.....BUT Rudy has dissappointed in terms of his court vision, his shooting and creating for his teammates. The same goes for Lowry.

      You guys were on board with giving up our first round pick for Lowry. You guys were on board with trading for Rudy and his ridiculous contract. When it comes to Demar - Why should we listen to anything else you guys have to say??? LOL I'm just saying....

      In spite of our differences of opinions, some of you guys have brought A LOT to these forums. So believe me when i say I mean no disrespect. I learnt that you guys can be wrong.....BIG TIME. No more rash/knee-jerk decisions please!
      Yeah, anytime you say you wont call them out, but say their name, you're calling them out.
      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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      • #93
        special1 wrote: View Post
        WOW....thanks for at least admitting that he is improving year-by-year (i'm being a bit sarcastic).

        Whether his overall impact is the same, is entirely based on opinion. However, let's just take a quick walk back down memory lane shall we?? In terms of tanking....aren't we in this position due to a few choices BC made?
        It's actually statistical, not opinion. Just a couple weeks ago I was a DeMar defender b/c of the eye-test improvements: he's gradually adding some range to his shot, he seems to make better decisions with the ball, he's improved his handle, he seems to be finishing through contact better, and he's working on his post game.

        Then I started looking for evidence - any evidence at all - to back up his "developing game." There isn't any. I'm not just talking about comparing box scores - look for any objective measurement that DeMar's impact has improved, and please tell me about it. (Honestly.)

        I actually found evidence that DeMar's game isn't developing in the ways we thought it was. He isn't attacking the basket more - in fact, a higher percentage of his shot attempts are taken away from the basket. He's launching 3's at a much higher rate than ever before - he now attempts just as many 3's as he does shots at the rim. And, in spite of taking far more shots this year than any previous year, his free throw attempts have plateaued. He's shooting more but he isn't getting to the line more. In spite of his post game and the appearance of finishing through contact, his FG% at the rim has actually dropped a bit from his rookie year.

        He isn't rebounding any better. He isn't moving the ball better. He isn't better defensively. In spite of his "hard worker" reputation (and in certain ways he is a hard worker with a really positive attitude) we don't see any of his hard work on the defensive end where he fights through screens as effectively as a wet noodle.

        Speaking of screens, he can't use them to run a basic pick and roll. At all.

        2005-06 Mike James was much more effective, in virtually every statistical category, than DeMar DeRozan. I really think that if you're defending DeRozan's game at this point, your just a generally optimistic guy who's being positive for positive's sake. Do your homework and you'll almost certainly be disappointed.

        I wish I were wrong.
        "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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        • #94
          special1 wrote: View Post
          WOW....thanks for at least admitting that he is improving year-by-year (i'm being a bit sarcastic).

          Whether his overall impact is the same, is entirely based on opinion. However, let's just take a quick walk back down memory lane shall we?? In terms of tanking....aren't we in this position due to a few choices BC made?

          I won't call out Matt52 because he doesn't want to look back at his past opinions, only the future draft. However, I do recall having discussions with you regarding Kyle Lowry and Rudy Gay (whom you were extremely excited to acquire even before BC went and got him at the time). In your own words you said that they were wayyy better players than anyone we have. That they were soooo awesome (i think i'm paraphrasing here). I hate to say i told you so.....BUT Rudy has dissappointed in terms of his court vision, his shooting and creating for his teammates. The same goes for Lowry.

          You guys were on board with giving up our first round pick for Lowry. You guys were on board with trading for Rudy and his ridiculous contract. When it comes to Demar - Why should we listen to anything else you guys have to say??? LOL I'm just saying....

          In spite of our differences of opinions, some of you guys have brought A LOT to these forums. So believe me when i say I mean no disrespect. I learnt that you guys can be wrong.....BIG TIME. No more rash/knee-jerk decisions please!
          I still like what Lowry brings to this team. Same with Rudy. They're skilled players....they just don't always make smart decisions (but I would suggest coaching has something to do with that). Even in hindsight, I'll gladly take Lowry over Gary Forbes and Steven Adams any day of the week. Same with Rudy over Calderon and Davis (despite his ugly contract, he's still an asset).

          Anyways, you haven't proven me wrong, so I'm not sure what bringing up my opinion on those players accomplishes.

          Comment


          • #95
            No matter who you put at the wing positions, its going to be iso ball under Casey's system.
            Change the coach first to someone competent who can instill an offensive system.

            Ross, Alan Anderson, Derozan, Gay have all been playing isos and its been showing this year. Teams were caught off guard last year with the wing attack when Gay was fresh, but smart coaches who make adjustments have eliminated driving to the basket. This leaves us with A) contested Lowry 3 pointer. B) Contested Mid-Range/Fadeaway DD/Gay shot which if we are lucky, is cleaned up by Hansbrough, JV or Johnson.

            Change coach first, get Rudy & DD's trade value up then ship Rudy and Lowry for younger players.

            Its hard to say that Mike James was more effective. DD is playing in a flawed system. He has the tools to score 24 a game (post game, athleticism, mid-range shot) but he has to create his own shot too much.

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            • #96
              Axel wrote: View Post
              Yeah, anytime you say you wont call them out, but say their name, you're calling them out.
              Yea....you're right...lol my bad.

              Comment


              • #97
                special1 wrote: View Post
                LOL - small sample size.....he played 11 games and will likely improve on those numbers (i'm sure his numbers will be closer to his career average). Since you seem to approve of small sample sizes (i know you don't), I guess i should mention the fact that he now shoots over 35% from 3's so far this year. His handles have certainly looked a lot tighter than in the past as well. He seems stronger. Yet we still hear cries of no improvement from what i like to call haters.

                I think if some posters don't want to be called haters, they should acknowledge some of the positives instead of spewing the same stuff over and over again from past years. OR stop cherry picking stats when the eye-test is much more reliable.

                For example.... your post above implies (to me) that Demar actually regressed. However, we know that's simply not true. We see a more confident player than past years. Someone with better handles, more post moves, better range and more creating for his teammates. Obviously, he must continue to improve, but he's getting there. You have your opinion and i respectfully disagree with it.
                You're right. But the benefit is lost when:
                1) he is shooting 5.8 shots per game above his career and at a career worst 40%.
                2) his eFG% is actually down despite increase in 3pt%
                3) his TS% is like #2.

                I do agree his handles are tighter but that is still not saying much.

                As for cherry picking stats when the eye-test is more reliable, I am going to give the same response I gave to someone earlier: we have a difference of opinion of what is a good basketball player - and that is alright.

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                • #98
                  S.R. wrote: View Post
                  It's actually statistical, not opinion. Just a couple weeks ago I was a DeMar defender b/c of the eye-test improvements: he's gradually adding some range to his shot, he seems to make better decisions with the ball, he's improved his handle, he seems to be finishing through contact better, and he's working on his post game.

                  Then I started looking for evidence - any evidence at all - to back up his "developing game." There isn't any. I'm not just talking about comparing box scores - look for any objective measurement that DeMar's impact has improved, and please tell me about it. (Honestly.)

                  I actually found evidence that DeMar's game isn't developing in the ways we thought it was. He isn't attacking the basket more - in fact, a higher percentage of his shot attempts are taken away from the basket. He's launching 3's at a much higher rate than ever before - he now attempts just as many 3's as he does shots at the rim. And, in spite of taking far more shots this year than any previous year, his free throw attempts have plateaued. He's shooting more but he isn't getting to the line more. In spite of his post game and the appearance of finishing through contact, his FG% at the rim has actually dropped a bit from his rookie year.

                  He isn't rebounding any better. He isn't moving the ball better. He isn't better defensively. In spite of his "hard worker" reputation (and in certain ways he is a hard worker with a really positive attitude) we don't see any of his hard work on the defensive end where he fights through screens as effectively as a wet noodle.

                  Speaking of screens, he can't use them to run a basic pick and roll. At all.

                  2005-06 Mike James was much more effective, in virtually every statistical category, than DeMar DeRozan. I really think that if you're defending DeRozan's game at this point, your just a generally optimistic guy who's being positive for positive's sake. Do your homework and you'll almost certainly be disappointed.

                  I wish I were wrong.
                  So 11 games into the season you're looking for "objective measurement of evidence" for his improvement??.....EVEN though you say you can clearly see it with your own eyes??? LOL

                  First off i think the sample size is too small. You have to wait a bit longer to make difinitive statements on whether he is better this year compared to last season.

                  With regards to the first bold.....do you see what many of us were saying about shooting 3's?? If you want to be a better 3 point shooter you HAVE to shoot more 3's. It's really common sense. This is why you see more 3's than ever before from Demar. Many of us were saying we prefer him attacking the basket, but understand that he needs to be a decent 3 point shooter in order to spread the floor. NOW he is a decent 3 point shooter (so far) and we hear even more criticisms (about him not attacking the rim more - blah blah blah).

                  Second bold - Anyone who has watched most of the games this year can see that he still has to earn respect from the officials. MANY times he's getting fouled and not receiving calls. I think if he keeps at it, he'll get more respect from the officials.

                  Look - 11 games into the season i'll take my eye-test over whatever useless stats (due to the sample size) that you want to throw out there.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    special1 wrote: View Post
                    WOW....thanks for at least admitting that he is improving year-by-year (i'm being a bit sarcastic).

                    Whether his overall impact is the same, is entirely based on opinion. However, let's just take a quick walk back down memory lane shall we?? In terms of tanking....aren't we in this position due to a few choices BC made?

                    I won't call out Matt52 because he doesn't want to look back at his past opinions, only the future draft. However, I do recall having discussions with you regarding Kyle Lowry and Rudy Gay (whom you were extremely excited to acquire even before BC went and got him at the time). In your own words you said that they were wayyy better players than anyone we have. That they were soooo awesome (i think i'm paraphrasing here). I hate to say i told you so.....BUT Rudy has dissappointed in terms of his court vision, his shooting and creating for his teammates. The same goes for Lowry.

                    You guys were on board with giving up our first round pick for Lowry. You guys were on board with trading for Rudy and his ridiculous contract. When it comes to Demar - Why should we listen to anything else you guys have to say??? LOL I'm just saying....

                    In spite of our differences of opinions, some of you guys have brought A LOT to these forums. So believe me when i say I mean no disrespect. I learnt that you guys can be wrong.....BIG TIME. No more rash/knee-jerk decisions please!
                    Really?

                    You don't read my posts then. I've acknowledged many past screw ups on opinions. I've nailed some things too but even a broken clock is right twice a day. You know what the key is though? Cutting your losses when you were/are wrong.

                    I recently showed your own history of stellar opinions. Your hypocrisy was shown then I'm and not really in to proving that point again.

                    It sounds to me like you wish to be a part of a big circle jerk. I'm not in to circle jerks to be honest. If people share the same opinion, so be it. If they have another one, that is cool - especially when they can back it up with solid reasoning/evidence. But your relentless pursuit to one up myself and other posters who share a difference of opinion is lame - especially when any objective view would show DD is what he is: an inefficient volume scorer. End. Of. Discussion.

                    Choose your heroes wisely, kids.

                    Comment


                    • Nilanka wrote: View Post
                      I still like what Lowry brings to this team. Same with Rudy. They're skilled players....they just don't always make smart decisions (but I would suggest coaching has something to do with that). Even in hindsight, I'll gladly take Lowry over Gary Forbes and Steven Adams any day of the week. Same with Rudy over Calderon and Davis (despite his ugly contract, he's still an asset).

                      Anyways, you haven't proven me wrong, so I'm not sure what bringing up my opinion on those players accomplishes.
                      It goes to show how quickly you change paths.....How quickly we go from one extreme (no flexibility) to wanting to TANK and trade the very same guys you wanted so badly. The very same guys who you critisize and say you don't even want to wait and see. Sorry, if i don't forget that easily. You can jump on the tank bandwagon, BUT you can't pretend that you didn't want this in the first place!

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                      • special1 wrote: View Post
                        So 11 games into the season you're looking for "objective measurement of evidence" for his improvement??.....EVEN though you say you can clearly see it with your own eyes??? LOL

                        First off i think the sample size is too small. You have to wait a bit longer to make difinitive statements on whether he is better this year compared to last season.

                        With regards to the first bold.....do you see what many of us were saying about shooting 3's?? If you want to be a better 3 point shooter you HAVE to shoot more 3's. It's really common sense. This is why you see more 3's than ever before from Demar. Many of us were saying we prefer him attacking the basket, but understand that he needs to be a decent 3 point shooter in order to spread the floor. NOW he is a decent 3 point shooter (so far) and we hear even more criticisms (about him not attacking the rim more - blah blah blah).

                        Second bold - Anyone who has watched most of the games this year can see that he still has to earn respect from the officials. MANY times he's getting fouled and not receiving calls. I think if he keeps at it, he'll get more respect from the officials.

                        Look - 11 games into the season i'll take my eye-test over whatever useless stats (due to the sample size) that you want to throw out there.
                        I'm going to dismiss all of this based on two things:
                        1) Who said I was talking about stats from 2013/14? Not me, not once. I'm talking about his entire career-arc. The stats I pulled up earlier in this thread (vs. Mike James) are from 2012/13 for the sole purpose of avoiding small sample size conclusions.
                        2) You're clearly here with the intent of being a trolling ass. Glad you've found something that turns your crank, but I'm not really interested.
                        "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

                        Comment


                        • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                          I think you should give any poster the respect of actually reading a post before you critique it. But your post is so ridiculous I'll entertain it... because, you know, I actually read it.

                          You are comparing a fictional movie to the Raptors? Who said they want the Raptors to move? You think that another couple of losing seasons is going to cause the Raptors to relocate? They've been awful for 13/14 of 18 years. They've been one of the top 5 worst teams in the league during that time. If they are not moved now, they aren't moving. Despite all the crappy Raptor teams - including the current one:

                          Toronto is 18th in the league in attendance in terms of capacity (91.6%).
                          Toronto is 13th in the league in terms of average attendance (18,144) and about 500 a night out of the top 10.

                          As for what you want to cheer for, enjoy it. This is another person who hasn't yet understood that expecting others to share your values, beliefs, and judgements is a major cognitive distortion.
                          Fair enough. But you missed the whole point of my post. I wasn't singling you out, and I in fact praised your posting. The only part I had an issue with is the "we have a great fanbase" part of it. It may have been a knee-jerk reaction, but what you need to realize is that the people on these types of forums aren't the standard for all fans. I simply meant that there are people out there (which I think I also mentioned in 2 posts, that I was referring to a general attitude that I've seen personally, NOT exclusively on RR) is that the only way to win is to be the absolute worst. It wasn't about relocating. It was about taking the laziest possible route to getting good players, which in MY opinion is a bit of an insult to the game, effective or not.

                          I don't know. I really didn't mean to boil your post down to a single sentence. I truly didn't. I'm just entirely sick of the #tankforwiggins bs I'm seeing everywhere. Maybe I just need to take a break.
                          "This just in........ THE RAPTORS ARE AMAZING!"

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                          • Mundy wrote: View Post
                            Fair enough. But you missed the whole point of my post. I wasn't singling you out, and I in fact praised your posting. The only part I had an issue with is the "we have a great fanbase" part of it. It may have been a knee-jerk reaction, but what you need to realize is that the people on these types of forums aren't the standard for all fans. I simply meant that there are people out there (which I think I also mentioned in 2 posts, that I was referring to a general attitude that I've seen personally, NOT exclusively on RR) is that the only way to win is to be the absolute worst. It wasn't about relocating. It was about taking the laziest possible route to getting good players, which in MY opinion is a bit of an insult to the game, effective or not.

                            I don't know. I really didn't mean to boil your post down to a single sentence. I truly didn't. I'm just entirely sick of the #tankforwiggins bs I'm seeing everywhere. Maybe I just need to take a break.
                            This is totally legitimate. "Trade them all!" is a pretty emotional fan reaction to the crappy basketball we're seeing (including some ugly wins), and of course there are a few different ways to move forward.

                            Personally I'm glad that fans are having fun with the tanking idea, because otherwise this is projecting to be a miserable season. Nobody's really dedicated to tanking so much as being dedicated to just being better. Whatever way Ujiri gets this team there will be fine by everybody once they've finally arrived.

                            Most of the tanking enthusiasm is tied to the 2014 draft. I'm not so sure Ujiri's going to let himself be pressured by the quality of that draft class. I've got a feeling he'll take a longer-term view and we may find his patience frustrating.
                            "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

                            Comment


                            • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              Really?

                              You don't read my posts then. I've acknowledged many past screw ups on opinions. I've nailed some things too but even a broken clock is right twice a day. You know what the key is though? Cutting your losses when you were/are wrong.

                              I recently showed your own history of stellar opinions. Your hypocrisy was shown then I'm and not really in to proving that point again.

                              It sounds to me like you wish to be a part of a big circle jerk. I'm not in to circle jerks to be honest. If people share the same opinion, so be it. If they have another one, that is cool - especially when they can back it up with solid reasoning/evidence. But your relentless pursuit to one up myself and other posters who share a difference of opinion is lame - especially when any objective view would show DD is what he is: an inefficient volume scorer. End. Of. Discussion.

                              Choose your heroes wisely, kids.
                              Really?? If i did, I would join your tanking group. You know the BIGGEST circle jerk there is on RR......lol You have sooo many posters in your circle because your a pro-tanker and believe in JV as our lord and saviour. I think it was like 75% pro-tankers on this site( the last time i checked out the poll). It's pretty hilarious. It's like a cult following.

                              I'm not here to change your opinion of Demar. I'm hear to express my view. You point out all the bad. I point out some positive. I thought we agreed to disagree a long time ago? lol

                              Comment


                              • S.R. wrote: View Post
                                I'm going to dismiss all of this based on two things:
                                1) Who said I was talking about stats from 2013/14? Not me, not once. I'm talking about his entire career-arc. The stats I pulled up earlier in this thread (vs. Mike James) are from 2012/13 for the sole purpose of avoiding small sample size conclusions.
                                2) You're clearly here with the intent of being a trolling ass. Glad you've found something that turns your crank, but I'm not really interested.
                                You may want to re-read your post. Here....I'll give you a couple snippets of what you just wrote.

                                "I actually found evidence that DeMar's game isn't developing in the ways we thought it was. He isn't attacking the basket more - in fact, a higher percentage of his shot attempts are taken away from the basket. He's launching 3's at a much higher rate than ever before - he *now attempts* just as many 3's as he does shots at the rim. And, in spite of taking far more shots this year than any previous year, his free throw attempts have plateaued. He's shooting more but he isn't getting to the line more.

                                I really don't want to spend anymore time looking through your post because clearly your the one trolling. Who said you were talking about stats from 2013/14??? YOU!!! OMG
                                Last edited by special1; Mon Nov 18, 2013, 06:32 PM.

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