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The Lockout & the Raptors: Players approve CBA, Owners too! (1944)

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  • MyMomLovesMe wrote: View Post
    Sorry about the insults, but I am getting frustrated with you because it is apparent that nothing is sinking in. So my response after response feels like just an exercise in futility. IF you really want to debate, than you will acknowledge I caught you multiple times not understanding the concepts.


    The money comes from a loan against the franchise. The interest is full deducted, therefore the money cost is zip. Except that it costs you the revenues which would have been profits if you did not add that big ass loan to it. So your cost of that money is 75% on the financing. Which means you have a big ass pile of it working in your favour for only 75% of the cost of the financing bill.

    This is the reason why you do not take money out of a business and than put it back in. It is retarded. You already got dinged on it by the tax man. It is not very smart.


    So a smart business owner, rather than renting his tools, and keeping his costs down, so that he can make oodles of profits for the tax man, instead buys his tools, buys his building, operates at a loss, including expensing out his own salary.
    Believe it or not, I am following what you are saying. And unfortunately, the condescending "IF you really want to debate, than you will acknowledge I caught you multiple times not understanding the concepts." is beyond inaccurate. The beginning of this thread had you misusing terms such as capital gains and capital losses. You've continued to advocate depreciation of assets without acknowledging that subtracts from the adjusted cost base therefore increasing capital gains upon selling.

    The biggest miss is ignoring the impact of cash flow.

    If a business is operating at negative cash flow every expense added (interest, practice facility, whatever) makes them go more negative in cash flow.

    Every loan taken out might increase the value of the franchise if used appropriately however you still have to repay the debt and pay the interest when you are already cash flow negative. Where does the money come from to handle MORE expenses when you are already operating at negative cash flow i.e. a LOSS?

    Maybe this gives a better indication I hear where you are coming from:

    I bought a house in May 2007 as a rental and sold it in July 2008 for a profit of $38K. I took all those profits and rolled it in to another rental property that I bought at a discount because it needed serious renovations. When finished I had a property valued at more than the cost plus renovations and I had a better cash flow on the new property (+$450 per month on old versus +$1200 per month on the new) plus I paid no capital gains on the sale because the expenses in the renovations were greater. The difference here is I was operating at a profit.

    For many NBA owners they are operating at a loss. So you are saying the owners should take out more loans against their franchises to increase the value of the asset while increasing their expenses all the while operating at a loss, forgetting operational costs because they don't matter? If they don't matter, then why do businesses go out of business?

    When expenses and depreciation exceed revenues, the extra expenses and depreciation are not helping the business because you can't claim any extra expense or depreciation if there are no revenues left. You can only keep operating like this as long as you can keep taking loans to cover costs. At some point the cost to cover the loans becomes greater than the revenues themselves - forgetting all the other expenses.

    Also when you are operating at a loss year over year, as many owners claim to be, what is the point of carrying losses over against more losses? At some point you need to make a profit to claim a loss.

    This is the problem from the owners perspective: expenses exceed revenues.

    Your answer to cover costs through loans against an asset is leverage (there is no capital gain because a capital gain requires a sale). Leverage is a great tool when asset prices are rising. When they are stagnant or, worse, dropping losses are magnified even more.


    As for your smart business owner: what happens when the tool breaks with no warranty and the building needs a new roof while operating at negative cash flow? Where does the money come from? A loan of course. What happens when it is time to pay interest and principle and he has already been operating cash flow negative?

    Something the auditor for CRA in my family said to me a couple of years ago when I had exhausted every method possible to reduce my tax bill (depreciation, expenses, maintenance, repairs, personal use items, etc.) and it was the first time I had ever paid in on my taxes: Don't sweat paying taxes, it means you've made money.

    Your answer for the owners is to continue to loss $1 for every 25 cents gained (assuming marginal tax rate is 25%). Your answer only makes sense for owners if they are being taxed at over 100%.

    Lets put it another way, these are the owners choices for every $1:

    1) get 75 cents and give 25 cents to the taxman operating at a profit,

    2) lose $2.12 by losing $1 in operational costs and then give another $1 to a contractor plus pay the interest (say 6%) on the loan to cover operational costs and construction operating at a loss.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Wed Jul 13, 2011, 11:36 AM.

    Comment


    • Okay dude, you are the king of the hill. You are the mod. Everything I say is wrong everything you say is right.



      You don't get it do you?

      "If a business is operating at negative cash flow every expense added"

      This is and assumption on your part, without knowing the info you cant say this. I keep saying lets check the books. My views are scenarios, you act like your views are facts. You seem comfortable pretending you know everything in this thread and getting it HORRIBLY WRONG, due to your inability to think logically about the subject, and not understanding it beyond its basic concepts.


      All praise Matt52. When he does not understand something, he just pretends he does.


      EDIT: Your points are on record, and anyone who reads this thread with any knowledge will see that I caught you not understanding the concepts many times. Too bad you can't admit it.
      Last edited by MyMomLovesMe; Wed Jul 13, 2011, 11:46 AM.

      Comment


      • MyMomLovesMe wrote: View Post
        Okay dude, you are the king of the hill. You are the mod. Everything I say is wrong everything you say is right.



        You don't get it do you?

        "If a business is operating at negative cash flow every expense added"

        This is and assumption on your part, without knowing the info you cant say this. I keep saying lets check the books. My views are scenarios, you act like your views are facts. You seem comfortable pretending you know everything in this thread and getting it HORRIBLY WRONG, due to your inability to think logically about the subject, and not understanding it beyond its basic concepts.


        All praise Matt52. When he does not understand something, he just pretends he does.


        EDIT: Your points are on record, and anyone who reads this thread with any knowledge will see that I caught you not understanding the concepts many times. Too bad you can't admit it.
        I am sorry you feel that way. Unfortunately my argument is backed by arithmetic. The fact I am a moderator has no bearing on this discussion. FWIW, if you had typed some of the comments towards another poster that you have typed to me, I probably would have sent you a PM by now.

        We have both already agreed neither one knows what the books say and it is players argument (your opinion) versus owners argument (my opinion). It is my opinion owners would not shut down an operation that is profitable in hopes of making more money. Going back to the rental property as an analogy, losing $1000 in rent for a month because I think I can rent a place for $1100 will take me 10 months of rent at $1100 to cover the loss of revenue for that original month of $1000.

        If anyone around here can prove that operating at a loss year over year with negative cash flow and taking out loans out against an asset as a means to cover expenses or increase value of asset is sound business advice, please let me know.
        Last edited by mcHAPPY; Wed Jul 13, 2011, 12:07 PM.

        Comment


        • FWIW in the NFL lockout I am squarely on the side of the players.

          From my understanding, owners are profitable with revenues are $9B of which players get $2B but there are no guaranteed contracts.

          Also from my understanding, the owners wish to cut the players share to $1B so they can make more profit.

          I find that appalling when they are already profitable to begin with and with franchise values soaring.

          Thought I'd throw that in to hopefully illustrate I'm not trying to screw players or make owners richer, I truly believe they system is flawed in the NBA.

          Comment


          • Matt, your argument is backed by your ego.


            You already have shown me that you do not even understand basic concepts or strategies. It looks to me like you had no business school and you are telling me that i am mixing up capital gains/losses. No offence, dude, but I don't appreciate the rouse.

            Just for once in your life admit that you do not understand.

            I demonstrated aptly why operational losses are not the end all and be all indicator. If you missed it than you deserve to be called less then knowledgeable on this subject. Someone who is not incorporated and does not understand general finance strategies. ...but you most likely have google.


            For you to call this a debate, is funny.... its all here, and if you go back you will find that you are making a lot deductive reasoning mistakes. It's not fair for me to go into a full page post in front of other users as to why you critical thinking on the issue shows me that you have no experience in this field.


            When I add all this up, it means you are taking a disproportionate amount of time attacking me on an issue you are fairly clueless about. So that is personal, and I am sorry if you need to be called out on it.
            Last edited by MyMomLovesMe; Wed Jul 13, 2011, 12:15 PM.

            Comment


            • MyMomLovesMe wrote: View Post
              Matt, your argument is backed by your ego.


              You already have shown me that you do not even understand basic concepts or strategies. It looks to me like you had no business school and you are telling me that i am mixing up capital gains/losses. No offence, dude, but I don't appreciate the rouse.

              Just for once in your life admit that you do not understand.

              I demonstrated aptly why operational losses are not the end all and be all indicator. If you missed it than you deserve to be called less then knowledgeable on this subject. Someone who is not incorporated and does not understand general finance strategies. ...but you most likely have google.


              For you to call this a debate, is funny.... its all here, and if you go back you will find that you are making a lot deductive reasoning mistakes. It's not fair for me to go into a full page post in front of other users as to why you critical thinking on the issue shows me that you have no experience in this field.
              Telling me 2+3=7 doesn't make it true. The definition of a capital gain/loss from CRA clearly showed the use of the term was incorrect. Not one reply has gone off this topic or attacked you personally. I hope your discussions with other posters is more civil than this.

              I am not sure where this hostility has come from given this is the first exchange we've ever had besides a welcome in the "I'm New" thread.

              Best of luck to you and take care.

              I think it is best left at we'll have to agree to disagree on how to operate a franchise.

              Comment


              • No where do I tell you 2+3=7, if you are having a hard time with the concepts I am sorry for that. This is not a personal attack on you and never has been, your understanding of ideas in this field on the other hand deserves to be attacked.


                It's not okay to know definitions and think you know something, you also must understand its application. It is the application part that you are not understanding, and often I find myself palming my head while replying to you because I see that you are not even making the effort to understand.


                At some point once I demonstrated that operational costs are not the entire story, you could of easily said, "You are right, we don't know until the books are released".


                So according to you you I am wrong as in 2+3=7 and you are right.

                Do your facts and figures include the "fact" that you can take a loan against your franchise that will make you operate at a net loss for purposes of expansion? Or do you just "figure" that what you read in the MEDIA is always correct? While ignoring gross indicators like Revenues.

                Comment


                • MyMomLovesMe wrote: View Post
                  No where do I tell you 2+3=7, if you are having a hard time with the concepts I am sorry for that. This is not a personal attack on you and never has been, your understanding of ideas in this field on the other hand deserves to be attacked.


                  It's not okay to know definitions and think you know something, you also must understand its application. It is the application part that you are not understanding, and often I find myself palming my head while replying to you because I see that you are not even making the effort to understand.


                  At some point once I demonstrated that operational costs are not the entire story, you could of easily said, "You are right, we don't know until the books are released".


                  So according to you you I am wrong as in 2+3=7 and you are right.

                  Do your facts and figures include the "fact" that you can take a loan against your franchise that will make you operate at a net loss for purposes of expansion? Or do you just "figure" that what you read in the MEDIA is always correct? While ignoring gross indicators like Revenues.
                  Unfortunately there is nothing new in this thread worth commenting on for other readers/posters. The history of the thread gives a different indication, in my opinion, than what you see.

                  As I've already said, we'll have to agree to disagree on the operations of a franchise.

                  Comment


                  • ...oh,

                    and btw Matt52, you may run your operation month to month, but the corps do not. They have plans for 5 years at the minimum, cycles of asset gain, and capital write offs. Month to month is for small fish. If you can time a cycle to correspond with your labour negotiations you are ahead of the game.

                    Like I said, all their losses now, will be written off by the: "got the PA by the balls" CBA they are about to get. So when you know you are in for a bonanza, you may as well start padding those losses early so you can keep more later.

                    Comment


                    • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                      Unfortunately there is nothing new in this thread worth commenting on for other readers/posters. The history of the thread gives a different indication, in my opinion, than what you see.

                      As I've already said, we'll have to agree to disagree on the operations of a franchise.
                      Yah, I think its best Matt52.

                      I don't think we are enjoying this nor are the users.

                      Comment


                      • MyMomLovesMe wrote: View Post
                        ...oh,

                        and btw Matt52, you may run your operation month to month, but the corps do not. They have plans for 5 years at the minimum, cycles of asset gain, and capital write offs. Month to month is for small fish. If you can time a cycle to correspond with your labour negotiations you are ahead of the game.

                        Like I said, all their losses now, will be written off by the: "got the PA by the balls" CBA they are about to get. So when you know you are in for a bonanza, you may as well start padding those losses early so you can keep more later.
                        New material:

                        The just expired CBA ran for 6 years during which time no season returned a profit for the collective group of owners - or so they say.


                        Yah, I think its best Matt52.

                        I don't think we are enjoying this nor are the users.
                        Actually the discussion has not bothered me in the least. I just think it has run its course.

                        Comment


                        • That's horrible.


                          I guess we have to look closely at the books


                          Make sure that revenues are being spent wisely. (Since they are so huge)


                          EDIT: Just to give you an idea how complex this subject is. GE has an in house department that it pays millions of dollars to figure out the most efficient way to pay the least amount of taxes and utilize the most benefits with their subsides and capital and LEVERAGE. They paid no taxes last year, even though 7 of the 15 Billion came from within the US. They kept it all during the worst tax payer crisis in the US.
                          Last edited by MyMomLovesMe; Wed Jul 13, 2011, 01:14 PM.

                          Comment


                          • AP Sources: Players to get escrow money returned for first time

                            i.e. first time players salaries have not surpassed 57% of revenues

                            NEW YORK (AP)—Locked-out NBA players will have their escrow money returned to them for the first time because salaries fell below 57 percent of league revenues last season, two people with knowledge of the situation said Tuesday.

                            The players will get about $160 million back when a final audit of league revenues is completed later this month. The people spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because the auditing process is ongoing.

                            Eight percent of player salaries have been withheld each season since the 1999 collective bargaining agreement to ensure that players don’t exceed their guarantee of 57 percent of league revenues. They had surpassed that limit each season since, so the money was kept.

                            But with revenues up during a successful 2010-11 season, salary costs will fall short of that mark for the first time, though it isn’t known yet by how far.

                            The escrow return, first reported Tuesday by NBA.com, could strengthen the players’ contention that an overhaul of the current financial system isn’t needed and that owners can address their losses by controlled, smarter spending.

                            The union has argued that the total value of negotiated salaries had decreased in recent years, so player costs weren’t the problem.

                            Players even offered to discuss reducing the guarantee in their initial proposal for a new CBA to replace the one that expired last month. They later proposed dropping it to 54.3 percent shortly before the June 30 deadline, an offer Commissioner David Stern termed “modest.”

                            The sides remained far apart and owners imposed a lockout. The money that will be returned provides players some help while almost all of them will be without paychecks.
                            http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_yl...ug=ap-nbalabor

                            Comment


                            • I selected some of the questions that I thought were relevant but the whole chat is worth a read.

                              From HoopsWorld.com chat with Larry Coon July 13/11:

                              Jay in :
                              Hi Larry. You said that any shortages of players' salaries below 57% of BRI will be paid but yesterday's report of total salary dropping down below 57% does not mention this issue. If the 57% is floor AND ceiling, no one can argue owners overpay

                              Larry Coon:
                              You're right, it didn't mention that issue. It also said the audit wouldn't be done until later that month, so I'm guessing Steve Aschburner (the author of that piece) just talked to someone who told him "the players will get all their escrow money back."

                              The owners are DEFINITELY arguing that they ovepay. The central point of their argument is that as non-salary expenses rise, it comes entirely out of the owners' 43 percent, and none of it comes out of the players' 57 percent.
                              Marc in Toronto:
                              Assuming owners get close to what they want, which teams will benefit most from the new CBA?

                              Larry Coon:
                              Small market teams. There will be a much more level playing field for them to compete.
                              Jazzaholic in Salt Lake:
                              Is there any hope that the players will negotiate a CBA, where the rich teams can't keep buying championships and the small market teams can compete?

                              Larry Coon:
                              The owners really want a system like that. That's what revenue sharing, lower salary costs and a tighter cap are suposed to achieve.

                              The luxury tax system didn't work as intended -- it didn't stop teams from spending, it just stopped the POORER teams from spending. The richer teams just absorbed it as part of the cost of doing business.
                              Bastian in Germany:
                              How long do you think it would take from an agreement to the start of the season? Has the NBA contracts with the teams how fast the must be able to host a game?

                              Larry Coon:
                              In 1999 they took a couple weeks to get the agreement finalized, voted on, printed, distributed, etc., then there was a shortened free agent signing period, short training camps, and only three preseason games. Everything would probably take about a month.
                              byron in new york:
                              50/50 split in BRI a flex cap with 70mil with few exemptions and a more enhance revenue sharing will this be enough to end to stupid lockout? in my opinion if owners dont want to pay players then contraction is the solution!

                              Larry Coon:
                              One of the owners' complaints is that as non-salary expenses go up, the increase comes entirely out of the owners' share of the pie and not the players' share. This is something they want to fix. They'd be fine with a 50/50 split AFTER more money is taken off the top to cover expenses. One of their proposals called for $900 million to be taken off the top, then they'd split the rest 50/50. The players' proposal essentially was no extra money off the top and a 54/46 split. There's room in there to negotiate.

                              Both sides are talking about increasing revenue sharing, so you can consider that to be a given. But if there's going to be contraction, then revenue sharing will be the driving force. At some point the owners of money-making teams (who will consistently be feeding into the revenue-sharing system) will tire of supporting teams that will never turn a profit on their own. The more revenue sharing, the greater the call will be for contraction -- or at the very least relocation.

                              The players are fundamentally opposed to the idea of a hard cap, and they say a flex cap is just a hard cap with a fresh coat of paint.


                              Read more NBA news and insight: http://www.hoopsworld.com/chat.asp?c...#ixzz1S23kqihV
                              The bolded section is why I believe the players are cutting off their nose to spite their face.

                              Comment


                              • Larry Coon Lockout FAQ: Uncertain Future

                                http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/column...koutFAQ-110701

                                Not sure if anybody has posted this but a good read for those unsure of what the possible effects of lockout are.

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