Why "selling high" on DeMar doesn't make sense

[stooley]

I probably misunderstood.

What do you mean by replacement level player? Like a DD sub off the current roster?

Eh you know WARP in baseball? It's like a minimum salary type player. Alan Anderson, James Jones, John Salmons. Like average guys that are dime a dozen in euro leagues and what not.

I kinda took net negative in the sense of Rudy Gay. Like benching him makes your team better just by removing that negative presence.

[mcHAPPY]

Eh you know WARP in baseball? It's like a minimum salary type player. Alan Anderson, James Jones, John Salmons. Like average guys that are dime a dozen in euro leagues and what not.

I kinda took net negative in the sense of Rudy Gay. Like benching him makes your team better just by removing that negative presence.

Ahhhh, cool. Thanks.

Back to original. I don't know. There are some valuable minimum salary type players out there who can contribute positively.

Based on talent and ability, I agree.
Based on outcome of the ISO play, not so sure.


But my only point, for the 100th time now, is DD has shown how to be a really positive impact on the game - play within the team, help move the ball, and don't force it time and time again.

[golden]

Ahhhh, cool. Thanks.

Back to original. I don't know. There are some valuable minimum salary type players out there who can contribute positively.

Based on talent and ability, I agree.
Based on outcome of the ISO play, not so sure.


But my only point, for the 100th time now, is DD has shown how to be a really positive impact on the game - play within the team, help move the ball, and don't force it time and time again.

Matt, you're still my homey, but I'm gonna have to educate you on this one. lol. Demar is not the only culprit for the ISO ball we are seeing. Casey's also to blame.

Basically, Casey has lost trust in JV (turnovers) and Ross (can't make open shots, until last game), so he's reverted back to playing it safe, which means keeping it in the hands of his "veteran" ball-handlers (DD, Lowry, Vasquez and Salmons). Notice how all of these guys always seem to have the ball in their hands at the end of the clock or are facing a double-team a lot of the time? The Nets know that Ross is basically a decoy now, and Amir & Jonas can't create their own shots away from the rim, so they are completely overplaying the ball-handlers with impunity. This eliminates the Amir pick and roll or even a simple entry pass into the post to JV.

So what we're seeing is the primary ball-handlers trying to run a play early in the clock, and the Nets easily defending that, and then the ball coming back into the hands of DD or Lowry with almost no time on the clock. I can guarantee you that Casey is telling DD and Lowry to take any shot they think they can make, unless vs. risking a turnover. Casey would rather have DD and Lowry hoist a brick, while sending JV and Amir to the glass to get the ball back (where the Raps have a clear advantage over the Nets.)

I mean, you can see the frustration in the body language of Jonas, with the inability of the Raps to feed the post, when that is the one, clear advantage the Raps have on the Nets in this series. But Casey's offense is designed to be perimeter-initiated. Even feeding the post comes from motion started on the perimeter, rather than simple hi-lo feeds, or pick & roll. Casey's offense simply isn't designed that way.

So what we are seeing is a form of the Rudy Gay offense from earlier this season, which I'm now convinced Casey was telling Gay to do exactly what we are seeing with Demar to a lesser extent, at times in this post-season. And Lowry simply does not have the repertoire of shots that DD can make, or guaranteed that his usage would be higher (and ORTG efficiency lower) and we'd all be complaining about him.

Another thing you may notice, is that the offense has run well when Demar, GV, and Lowry are on the floor at the same time. It's because now you've got 3 ball-handlers that Casey trusts, who have the green light to hoist shots and can make them, so the Nets can't simply overload on 2 guys.

And don't be calling me a Demar fan-boy. You know I'm not. I would trade him in a heart-beat for the right deal, but you're asking price is waaay too low.

[OldSkoolCool]

Another thing you may notice, is that the offense has run well when Demar, GV, and Lowry are on the floor at the same time. It's because now you've got 3 ball-handlers that Casey trusts, who have the green light to hoist shots and can make them, so the Nets can't simply overload on 2 guys.

And don't be calling me a Demar fan-boy. You know I'm not. I would trade him in a heart-beat for the right deal, but you're asking price is waaay too low.

I don't like the GV+Lowry+DD lineup because GV ends up dominating the ball at times when I want the ball in Lowry's hands. I would rather Casey just trust his young guys for once (like quarters 2 and 3) and you never know....things might actually work.

DDs value is so hard to pin down. On one side of the coin he is elite at getting to the line, is an all star, can score in a variety of ways at high usage, can pass within a system but isn't a great facilitator, he isn't a great defender nor is he good 3 pt shooter. He is a guy that you just can't plug into any system and see him excel....so some people may see him as very valuable, while some think he doesn't have much value.

I think his value is a talented player on his rookie deal + late lotto pick + solid vet + 2 late firsts or seconds. I think if someone came to me with that deal where I liked the players incoming I would have to take it...

[imanshumpert]

You realize I ended my post with "maybe" ?

You realize this was imanshumpert telling only part of the story in not only another thread but another forum?

I think Cialis could do a commercial regarding erections and DeRozan fan boys.

Regarding bold: no shit. He plays more minutes than anybody. But my comment about him these last few days are they relate to the Raptors winning have been 100% spot on.... *self high five* His ball hogging ISO ways in the playoffs through five games have been a drastic net negative on the team. When DD plays as part of the team and selective in his opportunities to score (while still being aggressive, of course) I have no issue with him.... in fact I love it.

And yes, I do recall going through this a while ago. That discussion has drastically altered my view on DD and his value. Unfortunately the first 3 and 3/4 games of the playoffs were horrible and the only way to defend his play has been to say, "Yeah, well, look at KD and Westbrook!!!" Deflection and redirection at its finest.

Dial it back man, what's the deal with the insults...

[mcHAPPY]

Matt, you're still my homey, but I'm gonna have to educate you on this one. lol. Demar is not the only culprit for the ISO ball we are seeing. Casey's also to blame.

Basically, Casey has lost trust in JV (turnovers) and Ross (can't make open shots, until last game), so he's reverted back to playing it safe, which means keeping it in the hands of his "veteran" ball-handlers (DD, Lowry, Vasquez and Salmons). Notice how all of these guys always seem to have the ball in their hands at the end of the clock or are facing a double-team a lot of the time? The Nets know that Ross is basically a decoy now, and Amir & Jonas can't create their own shots away from the rim, so they are completely overplaying the ball-handlers with impunity. This eliminates the Amir pick and roll or even a simple entry pass into the post to JV.

So what we're seeing is the primary ball-handlers trying to run a play early in the clock, and the Nets easily defending that, and then the ball coming back into the hands of DD or Lowry with almost no time on the clock. I can guarantee you that Casey is telling DD and Lowry to take any shot they think they can make, unless vs. risking a turnover. Casey would rather have DD and Lowry hoist a brick, while sending JV and Amir to the glass to get the ball back (where the Raps have a clear advantage over the Nets.)

I mean, you can see the frustration in the body language of Jonas, with the inability of the Raps to feed the post, when that is the one, clear advantage the Raps have on the Nets in this series. But Casey's offense is designed to be perimeter-initiated. Even feeding the post comes from motion started on the perimeter, rather than simple hi-lo feeds, or pick & roll. Casey's offense simply isn't designed that way.

So what we are seeing is a form of the Rudy Gay offense from earlier this season, which I'm now convinced Casey was telling Gay to do exactly what we are seeing with Demar to a lesser extent, at times in this post-season. And Lowry simply does not have the repertoire of shots that DD can make, or guaranteed that his usage would be higher (and ORTG efficiency lower) and we'd all be complaining about him.

Another thing you may notice, is that the offense has run well when Demar, GV, and Lowry are on the floor at the same time. It's because now you've got 3 ball-handlers that Casey trusts, who have the green light to hoist shots and can make them, so the Nets can't simply overload on 2 guys.

And don't be calling me a Demar fan-boy. You know I'm not. I would trade him in a heart-beat for the right deal, but you're asking price is waaay too low.

Matt, you're still my homey, but I'm gonna have to educate you on this one. lol. Demar is not the only culprit for the ISO ball we are seeing. Casey's also to blame.

Basically, Casey has lost trust in JV (turnovers) and Ross (can't make open shots, until last game), so he's reverted back to playing it safe, which means keeping it in the hands of his "veteran" ball-handlers (DD, Lowry, Vasquez and Salmons). Notice how all of these guys always seem to have the ball in their hands at the end of the clock or are facing a double-team a lot of the time? The Nets know that Ross is basically a decoy now, and Amir & Jonas can't create their own shots away from the rim, so they are completely overplaying the ball-handlers with impunity. This eliminates the Amir pick and roll or even a simple entry pass into the post to JV.

So what we're seeing is the primary ball-handlers trying to run a play early in the clock, and the Nets easily defending that, and then the ball coming back into the hands of DD or Lowry with almost no time on the clock. I can guarantee you that Casey is telling DD and Lowry to take any shot they think they can make, unless vs. risking a turnover. Casey would rather have DD and Lowry hoist a brick, while sending JV and Amir to the glass to get the ball back (where the Raps have a clear advantage over the Nets.)

I mean, you can see the frustration in the body language of Jonas, with the inability of the Raps to feed the post, when that is the one, clear advantage the Raps have on the Nets in this series. But Casey's offense is designed to be perimeter-initiated. Even feeding the post comes from motion started on the perimeter, rather than simple hi-lo feeds, or pick & roll. Casey's offense simply isn't designed that way.

So what we are seeing is a form of the Rudy Gay offense from earlier this season, which I'm now convinced Casey was telling Gay to do exactly what we are seeing with Demar to a lesser extent, at times in this post-season. And Lowry simply does not have the repertoire of shots that DD can make, or guaranteed that his usage would be higher (and ORTG efficiency lower) and we'd all be complaining about him.

Another thing you may notice, is that the offense has run well when Demar, GV, and Lowry are on the floor at the same time. It's because now you've got 3 ball-handlers that Casey trusts, who have the green light to hoist shots and can make them, so the Nets can't simply overload on 2 guys.

And don't be calling me a Demar fan-boy. You know I'm not. I would trade him in a heart-beat for the right deal, but you're asking price is waaay too low.

I've stated numerous times that DD was not the only culprit of ISO ball. I referred to GV, Lowry, and DD as my turn your turn offence.

Thanks for the education, homie.

[mcHAPPY]

Dial it back man, what's the deal with the insults...

Hardly intended as an insult but if you took it that way my apologies.

My frustration stems from half truths, selectivity in replies to my posts, and an inability of many DeRozan fanboys to grasp the concept that the raptors are better with DeRozan playing within the team versus playing 1 on 5.... And by the way you're one of the worst offenders.

I have changed my views on DeRozan this season and have admitted I was quite wrong on a number of my opinions on his future trajectory. When he plays well I certainly commend him as I did in game 5 in numerous posts.

[imanshumpert]

Hardly intended as an insult but if you took it that way my apologies.

My frustration stems from half truths, selectivity in replies to my posts, and an inability of many DeRozan fanboys to grasp the concept that the raptors are better with DeRozan playing within the team versus playing 1 on 5.... And by the way you're one of the worst offenders.

I have changed my views on DeRozan this season and have admitted I was quite wrong on a number of my opinions on his future trajectory. When he plays well I certainly commend him as I did in game 5 in numerous posts.

First of all I don't care if you're frustrated, that doesn't give you the right to start hurling insults.

Second of all, I'm not a derozan fanboy and I don't think the raptors are better when derozan plays 1 on 5/ISO ball instead of within the team. The only thing I've ever justified is WHY he isos, but I've never said that it's more effective than team ball.

[mcHAPPY]

First of all I don't care if you're frustrated, that doesn't give you the right to start hurling insults.

Second of all, I'm not a derozan fanboy and I don't think the raptors are better when derozan plays 1 on 5/ISO ball instead of within the team. The only thing I've ever justified is WHY he isos, but I've never said that it's more effective than team ball.

Wasn't an insult... at least not intended and I apologized for any misunderstanding. If I'm going to insult you, you'll know it, trust me.

As for the rest. start reading my posts without preconceived notions if you intend on reply to my thoughts and opinions or, maybe better yet, put me on ignore?

I'm very critical of DD's game but when he plays well I'll be the first to admit it.

I'm still rocking my *self high five* for the criticisms of his game and the difference he showed in the last quarter of game 4 and Q2,3,4 of game 5. That is what I wanted and expected and the results speak for themselves.

[imanshumpert]

Man you're arrogant... Jesus. I'll put you on ignore next time I'm on a computer

[mcHAPPY]

Man you're arrogant... Jesus. I'll put you on ignore next time I'm on a computer

Merci.

Thank you.

Muchas Gracias.

[imanshumpert]

Yeah I'm sure you're happy you have less people who will disagree with you now...

[golden]

I've stated numerous times that DD was not the only culprit of ISO ball. I referred to GV, Lowry, and DD as my turn your turn offence.

Thanks for the education, homie.

I can't stand it either, but Casey is a stubborn mofo coach, who loves his vets, and reverts to playing it safe at the slightest sign of trouble.

But again, looking at DD's asset value, you have a lot of selling points:

- young player
- all-star
- exciting, athletic player
- value contract
- high usage with above average efficiency ORTG (comparable to PG & Kyrie)
- high character, hard-working, team player
- plays a position in high demand/short supply (SG)
- entering prime of career with upside
- major contributor to a winning team

All I'm saying is that those factors should fetch alot more than a Jrue Holiday 'haul' (which we still have to see how that works out, anyway).

[mcHAPPY]

Yeah I'm sure you're happy you have less people who will disagree with you now...

I have absolutely no qualms with people disagreeing with me. Circle jerks are usually only enjoyable for a short time.

What I do have a problem with though is people attempting to disagree with me on what they THINK is my opinion.

Opinions evolve and many of my own have proven incorrect while others have been shaped by opinions of those on this very forum who held different opinions than my own.

[Raps76]

Ultimately DeMar is who we thought he was going to be. He was a no.9 draft pick on a reasonable contract who's putting up the type of numbers we expected of him. I think people get it twisted sometimes like he was a top 3 and expected to save the franchise. Yes he has a lot of deficiencies to go along with his assets (no need to discuss as we all know what they are) but he's relatively young and still maturing with upside.

DeMar is a great fit for this team and the direction of this team. To trade him now (with Ross still not there yet) would be a massive gamble unless you get offered an absolute haul! Otherwise you can't justify trading away a top SG in the league with youth and upside for something that may work next yr but isn't guaranteed. A good time might be after next yr but it would depend on Ross's development and what the returns are.

I think people need to relax sometimes and stop being such whiny nitpickers. Yes DD is gonna blow it sometimes, yes DC is gonna screw up some play calls but we need to recognize what we have going on here. Hell people don't even realize that if it wasn't for our coach's defensive minded prowess or the defensive fundamentals he instills and preaches we might not even be in the playoffs! He annoys the crap out of me too at times but you can't argue with the way he's kept this locker room united and believing.

We have one of the grittiest most exciting PG's in the league (and yes he's our best player, it's not even up for debate) and a young hungry team brimming with talent. We also have an uber savvy GM with great cap space over the next couple of years. So in regards to trading DeRozan the grass always looks greener but careful what you wish for people.. Seriously I think some of you really need to reign it in and enjoy the moment.






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