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Does Anybody Else Find This Type Of Attitude In A Fan Tasteless?

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  • #76
    vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
    if they didnt get J.O., they would have had to sign another centre which would cost them what ? $5 mill per year ?

    LbJ, Wade, Kobe, KG, have all missed the playoffs. saying wade made it on his own with no help from J.O. is just dumb.
    Can you name another available centre at the time who was just as talented as JO for 5 mill.?

    Where did I say JO was no help to Wade? I wrote "JO got to the playoffs twice was more Wade (and pretty much nothing else) which is really an indictment on Bosh...isnt it?". Comprehension please.... "was more Wade" does not equate "made it on his own".

    I noticed you did not answer the real point...if JO could make it twice to the playoffs with Wade, how was his association with Bosh such a bust?

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    • #77
      Bendit you're arguing with te wrong guy he cannot answer you!

      Comment


      • #78
        vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
        please explain how you can agree that trading a 1st round pick for Shawn Marion who had 2 months left in his contract was not worthy of some criticism. and the other option was to keep the pick use j.o's contract at the trade deadline in 2010 with a team looking to clear cap space.


        you dont have to know what goes on behind the scenes to know and understand that.

        a 20 million expiring was worth gold last season. keeping draft picks on a team that struggles to attract free agents is a priority.

        which part of this do you not agree on ?
        Wow man your all over the map here, haha. Although its not the conservative way to go, I agree with what Colangelo did. When your trying to build a team around a guy (Bosh), your not really thinking about how draft picks are going to enhance your chances of winning. Its about the here and now. What players are going to help win now. Sometimes you have to use your resources loosely (I.e. draft picks) in order to achieve your vision. If the Raps had a solid rotation 1-8, then there would be no need to use these draft picks so sparingly, but since the Raps almost had a gun to their head via Bosh, desperate measures were needed.

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        • #79
          exactly!!

          Comment


          • #80
            vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
            i dont get this point at all..


            look if riley says no to the deal unless the raps throw in a 1st round pick, then YOU DONT EXECUTE THE TRADE. and hang on to j.o. until after the season where he would become one of the most valuable expiring contracts in the league.

            we would not be giving up a draft pick, but teams would be GIVING US daft picks for J.o.'s contract.

            if you cant understand that so far, and think just because miami had to take on an extra year for j.o.'s contract, then why didnt indiana give us a 1st round pick for taking on j.o.'s huge contract ? (in fact we tpok on j.o. and GAVE INDIANA a 1st round pick)
            I suppose BC did not have to execute the deal. Bosh then would pout because he wasnt meshing with JO and really decide to move. And you'd be happy with that? I seem to be repeating myself. That deal was done to get a good wing player in Marion since a good centre did not work with Bosh. Marion decided not to stay (maybe he knew about Bosh's plans!).

            Regarding the Indy trans. I think you are forgetting the unloading of TJ's contract and his injury problems.

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            • #81
              Bendit wrote: View Post
              Can you name another available centre at the time who was just as talented as JO for 5 mill.?

              Where did I say JO was no help to Wade? I wrote "JO got to the playoffs twice was more Wade (and pretty much nothing else) which is really an indictment on Bosh...isnt it?". Comprehension please.... "was more Wade" does not equate "made it on his own".

              I noticed you did not answer the real point...if JO could make it twice to the playoffs with Wade, how was his association with Bosh such a bust?
              the nothing else part... nothing else means wade made it (to the playoffs) with nothing...

              you are then implying J.O. was nothing

              Comment


              • #82
                Bendit wrote: View Post
                Can you name another available centre at the time who was just as talented as JO for 5 mill.?

                Where did I say JO was no help to Wade? I wrote "JO got to the playoffs twice was more Wade (and pretty much nothing else) which is really an indictment on Bosh...isnt it?". Comprehension please.... "was more Wade" does not equate "made it on his own".

                I noticed you did not answer the real point...if JO could make it twice to the playoffs with Wade, how was his association with Bosh such a bust?
                umm i dont know maybe because BOSH ISNT DWAYNE WADE ??

                just cuz i dont like BC doesnt mean i like bosh... i have a brain and can be objective in my analysis of teams, players, and coaches.

                i dont like bosh either. but BC is a douche for throwing away 2 1st round picks for j.o. and 2 months of marion.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Nick wrote: View Post
                  Wow man your all over the map here, haha. Although its not the conservative way to go, I agree with what Colangelo did. When your trying to build a team around a guy (Bosh), your not really thinking about how draft picks are going to enhance your chances of winning. Its about the here and now. What players are going to help win now. Sometimes you have to use your resources loosely (I.e. draft picks) in order to achieve your vision. If the Raps had a solid rotation 1-8, then there would be no need to use these draft picks so sparingly, but since the Raps almost had a gun to their head via Bosh, desperate measures were needed.
                  a GOOD gm doesnt get desperate and do what's best for the player... he DOES WHAT'S BEST FOR THE TEAM..

                  a lot of REAL franchise players have even publicly demanded traded... that doesnt mean you get desperate and take the worst possible deal...

                  bc had to have known the j.o.'s $20 million expiring (plus a 1st round pick) would be worth much more than just 2 months of shawn marion who has a history of complaining and publicly saying he'll play wherever he gets paid the most.

                  plus by the time the marion/jermaine deal wnt down the raps were out of the playoffs, so what who was he really trying to impress BOSH ? or his dumbass fans just so he could say "atleast we didnt finish last !"

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
                    the nothing else part... nothing else means wade made it (to the playoffs) with nothing...

                    you are then implying J.O. was nothing
                    This is turning into a pissing contest now and quite tiring. My last defense of you trying the ole semantics manouevre. Apart from my stance thru the thread on the trades you think were absolutely outrageous, how can I be referring to JO as a "nothing" (as a matter of fact I would take Haslem on my team anyday) when my sentence just after was " I noticed you did not answer the real point...if JO could make it twice to the playoffs with Wade, how was his association with Bosh such a bust?". This would mean that I thought JO was in fact helpful in someway especially since Wade didnt make it to the playoffs the year previous to JO getting there!!

                    BC may not be your cup of tea and the Raps havent done particularly well under his watch but as others have pointed out there was a real priority (and everyone understood this including the fans) that the team in the last couple of seasons had to be built to make the playoffs and at least into the second round to satisfy Bosh we were on an upward trajectory so he would re-sign. Was it my choice on how to do things....no. I was always ambivalent about Bosh being the franchise player. BC is by no means the best gm around but he isnt what you and some others make him out to be. He was caught in a tough place...trade Bosh early on or keep him. He chose to keep him and build around him. What would you have done mr. gm?

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Bendit wrote: View Post
                      This is turning into a pissing contest now and quite tiring. My last defense of you trying the ole semantics manouevre. Apart from my stance thru the thread on the trades you think were absolutely outrageous, how can I be referring to JO as a "nothing" (as a matter of fact I would take Haslem on my team anyday) when my sentence just after was " I noticed you did not answer the real point...if JO could make it twice to the playoffs with Wade, how was his association with Bosh such a bust?". This would mean that I thought JO was in fact helpful in someway especially since Wade didnt make it to the playoffs the year previous to JO getting there!!

                      BC may not be your cup of tea and the Raps havent done particularly well under his watch but as others have pointed out there was a real priority (and everyone understood this including the fans) that the team in the last couple of seasons had to be built to make the playoffs and at least into the second round to satisfy Bosh we were on an upward trajectory so he would re-sign. Was it my choice on how to do things....no. I was always ambivalent about Bosh being the franchise player. BC is by no means the best gm around but he isnt what you and some others make him out to be. He was caught in a tough place...trade Bosh early on or keep him. He chose to keep him and build around him. What would you have done mr. gm?
                      Bendit wrote: View Post
                      JO got to the playoffs twice was more Wade (and pretty much nothing else) which is really an indictment on Bosh...isnt it?
                      this is what YOU said... i already said that j.o. helped make the playoffs in miami and not toronto BECAUSE CHRIS BOSH IS NOT DWAYNE WADE...

                      and i answered your question in post #82 in the first line and my answer was in one sentence... not a whole paragrapgh of someone rambling on and on like you chose to do...

                      i already told you i would not have traded a 1st round pick for j.o. and then 3 months later traded another 1st round pick to get rid of him... i would have explained to bosh that what is best for the team is to hang on to the expiring and try to get some players or draft picks back...

                      read your last post again and tell if you think half of it could have been cut...

                      now you can disagree or agree, i really dont care...

                      i dont like BC.. you do... lets leave it at that.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
                        drafted a PF when our franchise player was a PF...

                        the best centers he paired bosh with was bargs, a banged up j.o. rasho nesterovic, and jake voshkul.

                        the best wingmen on the team since bc was here were joey graham, jason kapono, carlos delfino, hedo turkoglu, and linus kleiza

                        overpaid for amir...

                        gave jose a $45 million over 5 years contract after he had 1 decent season in which jose didnt even start for most of the games or avg more than 30 min...

                        Jermaine O'neil had 2 years and over 40 million left on his contract. Indiana was desperate to get rid of him... in his last season with the pacers jermain averaged 13 n 6. now is this really a player that we should not only have to take on the bad contract but then also GIVE UP A 1st ROUND PICK (who happened to be Roy Hibbert, a defensive centre that we need)

                        Less than a year after acquiring J.O. we trade him to Miami, along WITH ANOTHER 1ST ROUND PICK, for marion and banks. now banks' had a contract that went past the 2010 free agent summer, and Miami was desperate to get rid of it... so did we really have to give up a 1st round pick for 2 months of shawn marion and we had to take the banks contract ?

                        what if bosh signed with houston or chicago.. we would never get that 1st round pick back.

                        BC traded 2 2nd round picks for carlos delfino... one of those 2nd round pick detroit used to draft jonas jerebko. a very cheap but very talented SF who can play defense. he average 10pts 6 rbds inhis rookie year and is 6'10.

                        he signed jason kapono a SF who cant play DEFENSE at 12:01am on the first day of free agency and gave him $24 million over 4 years.

                        if players are reluctant to sign in toronto because it's not in the USA, then our best method of acquiring good players would be through the draft. look at how happy derozan, davis, alibi, and even bosh and vince were when they were 19 and got picked by an nba team... so why are we giving away draft picks ?

                        also can you say that bc has a vision when in the same summer, he tries to acquire kleiza, barnes, diaw, barbosa, wright... it feels like he is just interested in floating above water and not really ever developing. he is only interested in getting players that will just get us by and we will be in 9-12 place all season.

                        without 2 time nba mvp steve nash on the court making everyone better, BC doesnt have a clue on how to put together a team that will go deep in the playoffs...

                        Edit: He also traded for TJ Ford then signed him to a deal that TJ is still enjoying today. I belive its between $8 and $9 million this year.
                        You pretty much nailed it

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          nubreed000 wrote: View Post
                          You pretty much nailed it
                          Nope, but he did hit the little nails and totally missed the big ones

                          1. BC was named NBA executive of the year with the Raptors
                          2. The Raptors have made the playoffs in 2 of his 4 full seasons and missed by one game in one other. Compare this to the Raptors in the four years prior to BC when the Raptors never made the playoffs once. Since he didn't sign until the spring of 06, 05-06 goes to his predecessor.
                          3. The Raptors in his 4 full seasons as GM/Pres have a cum won lost record of minus 6. In the prior four seasons it was minus 94.

                          So quite obviously the Raptors have been a lot better team during his tenor than they were before.

                          I think why a lot of Raptor fans attack him is because the Raptors were so successful on a historical basis in 2006-07 his first full season, so they

                          1. Expected the Raptors to continue to improve after that but the Raptors have not
                          2. Give the credit to the Raptors success in 2006-07 to his predecessor.
                          3. Have become disenchanted with the Bargnani pick at #1 because so far he has not worked out like you would expect a #1 pick to work out.
                          Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

                          Memories some so sweet, indeed

                          Larger Photo of the avatar



                          “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
                          Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

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                          • #88
                            Buddahfan wrote: View Post
                            Nope, but he did hit the little nails and totally missed the big ones

                            1. BC was named NBA executive of the year with the Raptors
                            2. The Raptors have made the playoffs in 2 of his 4 full seasons and missed by one game in one other. Compare this to the Raptors in the four years prior to BC when the Raptors never made the playoffs once. Since he didn't sign until the spring of 06, 05-06 goes to his predecessor.
                            3. The Raptors in his 4 full seasons as GM/Pres have a cum won lost record of minus 6. In the prior four seasons it was minus 94.

                            So quite obviously the Raptors have been a lot better team during his tenor than they were before.

                            I think why a lot of Raptor fans attack him is because the Raptors were so successful on a historical basis in 2006-07 his first full season, so they

                            1. Expected the Raptors to continue to improve after that but the Raptors have not
                            2. Give the credit to the Raptors success in 2006-07 to his predecessor.
                            3. Have become disenchanted with the Bargnani pick at #1 because so far he has not worked out like you would expect a #1 pick to work out.
                            ok the year he won EOY... lets look specifically at the moves that were made that helped the raptors win the division that year... jose calderon was signed by rob babcock....

                            bc had traded a recent 1st round pick for tj ford... at the end of the season which pg was contributing more to the team's success ?

                            what moves can you list that you think earned him the eoy ?

                            the previous years before bc were riddled with injuries and carter's off court drama... using a previous bad gm to compare a current bad gm is not a good way to evaluate talent.

                            what if you had a center who only got 3 rebounds per 36... then you got another center who averaged 6 rebounds per 36, can you really say that the second center is good at rebounding ? just because he was better than the one before...

                            finally does BC have any vision ?? how do you try to sign kleiza, diaw, and barnes for the SF position in the same summer... he has no vision.. he just tries to get whoever is available... a team is built by knowing what roles you want each position to play.

                            if he really believed in his bargs, why doesnt he try to sign a veteran centre (like adonis foyle who mentored dwight) (even yao ming had a vet centre around to progress his development) to help bargs learn how to play... there are a ton of 35 year old centres who would love to come in and make a million or 2 at the end of their career. link : http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_yl...enttracker2010

                            etan thomas - wouldnt he be better than david anderson ?? just to help bargs fully realize his potential ??

                            but no we get soft bigs like rasho nesterovic...
                            Last edited by vinnie_paz; Sun Aug 29, 2010, 02:52 PM.

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                            • #89
                              vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
                              ok the year he won EOY... lets look specifically at the moves that were made that helped the raptors win the division that year... jose calderon was signed by rob babcock....

                              bc had traded a recent 1st round pick for tj ford... at the end of the season which pg was contributing more to the team's success ?

                              what moves can you list that you think earned him the eoy ?

                              the previous years before bc were riddled with injuries and carter's off court drama... using a previous bad gm to compare a current bad gm is not a good way to evaluate talent.

                              what if you had a center who only got 3 rebounds per 36... then you got another center who averaged 6 rebounds per 36, can you really say that the second center is good at rebounding ? just because he was better than the one before...

                              finally does BC have any vision ?? how do you try to sign kleiza, diaw, and barnes for the SF position in the same summer... he has no vision.. he just tries to get whoever is available... a team is built by knowing what roles you want each position to play.

                              if he really believed in his bargs, why doesnt he try to sign a veteran centre (like adonis foyle who mentored dwight) (even yao ming had a vet centre around to progress his development) to help bargs learn how to play... there are a ton of 35 year old centres who would love to come in and make a million or 2 at the end of their career. link : http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_yl...enttracker2010

                              etan thomas - wouldnt he be better than david anderson ?? just to help bargs fully realize his potential ??

                              but no we get soft bigs like rasho nesterovic...
                              Like I said you are hitting the small nails or thumbtacks and avoiding the big picture.

                              Everyone has their own approach to evaluating someone's performance.

                              Basically with me when it comes to coaches and GMs I look at the team's won-loss record and playoff performances and leave the small stuff to them to figure out how to get the best results.

                              I didn't follow the Raptors very closely before 09-10 so I can't really address how BC did via expectations. However, it is clear based upon the two Raptors playoff appearances and won loss record over the last four seasons that he has done better than any previous GM/Pres for the Raptors over the last 10 seasons.

                              Now the question is. Is this good bad or in between?

                              The answer depends on what yardstick you are measuring him by.

                              If you use the yardstick that he is a bad or less than acceptable GM if the team does not improve its win count each season and improve their playoff record each season then one could argue that he has been a bad GM/President. Of course that would mean a GM like Ainge is bad because the Celtics have not improved each of the last two seasons.

                              My yardstick is based upon the league as a whole. BC is probably somewhere in the middle of the pack among NBA GMs since he signed on in 2006. The Raptors have been cumulatively basically a just under .500 team and made the playoffs in two of those four years. I would venture to say that not more than half of all GMs over that period have a better record. If you interject the EC vs WC argument again you are talking about the details.

                              Toronto is not in the WC so the Raptors don't have to measure their success as a team against the WC unless they get into the Finals. Yes it is fun to argue it, but BC does not get paid to finish with a better record than WC teams. He gets paid to beat the EC teams and get the Raptors to the Finals. Only then can you measure him and the Raptors against WC teams.

                              In my opinion this whole line of thinking that keeps comparing one conference's overall strength to the other is just plain dumb. There are only two times a season that comparing the EC to the WC makes sense. All-Star game and the Finals. Other than that it is just mental masturbation.

                              So to me his performance while GM/Pres of the Raptors has been about average by league standards up to this point.

                              As far as Triano goes. Obviously based upon won loss record and playoff appearances or lack there of I would rank him slightly below average so far.

                              That is how I see it.
                              Last edited by Buddahfan; Sun Aug 29, 2010, 03:17 PM.
                              Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

                              Memories some so sweet, indeed

                              Larger Photo of the avatar



                              “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
                              Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Nick wrote: View Post
                                I don't get it, why is BC such a bad GM?
                                BC's draft history is mixed, at best. When Bosh was still playing here, Colangelo failed to put pieces around him which would have elevated the team to anthing more than a second tier playoff contender. He failed to see the writing on the wall, and didn't make a deal for Bosh while he was still under contract, which could have returned some real value. He was taken to the cleaners by Pat Riley, and helped the Heat to create the cap space required to sign James and Bosh. In the end, all he got for Bosh, was the Raptors own draft pick, another first rounder which will be no higher than 28th overall, and TPE (which obviously has yet to be used). The icing on the cake was Colangelo's comments about Bosh on the Fan. Whether or not what he said was true, he came off as petty and made the organization look worse because of it. The Raptors need a new GM to take over this rebuild, not someone who is still covering for mistakes he made years ago (Bargnani).
                                Last edited by madeupid25; Sun Aug 29, 2010, 03:20 PM.

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