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Another 4th quarter collapse. Coaching is a major problem.

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  • #76
    I still don't agree with firing Casey when we're meeting expectations. We still have a flawed roster that needs to be fixed. If you fire Casey and you don't address the real issues, the next guy we hire will be fired within 2 seasons. We can't just keep replacing the coach and thinking this roster will suddenly turn into a winning team.

    JV not playing the 4th quarter, or Anderson getting too many minutes -- those are the least of our worries. Let's build a solid lineup first and then worry about who deserves more minutes than others. I'd much rather be in a situation where you look at the roster and predict a 45-win season and we go on to win 30. That's easy -- when that happens you replace the coach. Right now we have a roster that should win 35 games and we're going to win ~32. To get better, firing the coach is not the answer.

    In terms of losing games in the 4th quarter, a friend of mine gave me a great analogy:

    NBA players are like any one of us -- nobody goes into the office saying "Today I'm going to mail it in." But some days you just kinda do. It's helpful if what you're doing is routine, even banal. Humans are naturally going to be high strung when they're facing a challenge, and not when they're not.

    Playing the Toronto Raptors is the equivalent of filling out blank spots in a spreadsheet, I guess is what I'm saying. If your boss needs it by the end of the day, some days you'll find yourself farting around, staring out the window, staying too long for lunch, browsing RR forums and wondering why you can't focus... and then hurry up and finish it before 5pm.
    your pal,
    ebrian

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    • #77
      You have to give a coach three years and see where the team development is at. There has been so much turnover these past two seasons. He needs to now create an identity with Rudy Gay entrenched and Val in his 2nd year

      Comment


      • #78
        This is a very good analogy and hits home really hard.
        ebrian wrote: View Post
        In terms of losing games in the 4th quarter, a friend of mine gave me a great analogy:

        NBA players are like any one of us -- nobody goes into the office saying "Today I'm going to mail it in." But some days you just kinda do. It's helpful if what you're doing is routine, even banal. Humans are naturally going to be high strung when they're facing a challenge, and not when they're not.

        Playing the Toronto Raptors is the equivalent of filling out blank spots in a spreadsheet, I guess is what I'm saying. If your boss needs it by the end of the day, some days you'll find yourself farting around, staring out the window, staying too long for lunch, browsing RR forums and wondering why you can't focus... and then hurry up and finish it before 5pm.
        This on the other hand is really bad. Clearly this guy does not know basketball hierarchy, nor corporate hierarchy for that matter.
        qb5PHILA@hotmail.com wrote: View Post
        How would you feel if you were a CEO and then told by the board that you had been demoted to regional manager of the Scranton Branch? My point is that it will never happen.

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        • #79
          Last offseason Coach Casey was above all criticism. Everything he touched turned to gold, he was one of the key reasons the team would improve and HE was the team's culture.

          Now the Raptors world has swung upside down. Casey shouldn't be a head coach, he can't coach certain aspects of the game, his decisions are the reason the Raptors lost games X, Y and Z, and its time he's replaced.

          Haven't we heard this story before? I don't know, say twice previously in the last 7 seasons?

          Unfortunately for Casey (and fans), he's had a GM who has done a poor job identifying talent and building a team in general. Leaving Coach Casey in a terribly ackward spot - building certain individuals trade value, using players to justify intended purposes even if its not in the teams best interest, while also winning games, while also trying to build for the future, while playing a style of game that does not at all mesh with his.

          That this discussion is even taking place should be yet another enourmous smack in the face for Colangelo.

          Casey is nothing more than a symptom of Colangelo's short sighted, bait and switch, "I'll sell you gelato but give you luke warm cream" method of ego preserving team building.

          Casey was brought in because Colangelo was building around Bargnani, thought to imitate the Dallas Mavericks, and wanted to convince a sour fan base that yes he knew and cared about defense. Going into this season Colangelo had not only convinced himself he had accomplished much of the above (which was ridiculous given the small sample of 1) Bargnani 2) a single shortened season 3) how poor Toronto's real results were) but he could add a Casey unfriendly Phoenix north edge to the team. All this while no longer being able to contain his waiting under the surface 'I'll prove it was me and not daddy' old self.

          The result - this team was trying to simultaneously be (through management, coaches, and players)

          -the championship Dallas Mavericks (Colangelo's pseudo-plan)
          -the run and gun Suns (Colangelo's prefered style)
          -the 2005x dynansty Detroit Pistons (Casey's prefered style)

          without the personnel or talent to do any of them. Now this team is sitting on a 2007 Washington Wizards-esq roster. A rather random mix of overpayed young and veteran talent (and untalented alike) trying to be all things at once but have problems being anything at once.


          Ok so that may be a bit ranty and confusing but I'll try and sum up.

          Colangelo (or hopefully a new GM) needs to make a decision. Do they want to win now or do they want to rebuild?

          If the plan is to win now, and are willing to trade away guys like Val and Ross to add quality veterans, with a slow paced defensive focus - Casey is the man for the job

          If the plan is to do pretty much anything else (rebuild, high octane offense etc) - Casey is not the man for the job

          If the plan is to do continue down the path the team has, with an ever shifting focus, quick reaction moves, and ego driven decisions - it doesn't matter who the coach is.

          Comment


          • #80
            ezz_bee wrote: View Post
            Fire him next january if we're not meeting expectations.
            It could cost us making the play-offs. Off season Coaching change is better 'cause there's more time for familiarity.
            Attitude Is A Choice.

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            • #81
              I've been frustrated with the rotations and sub-patterns BUT I voted to keep Dwane Casey.

              We NEED to fire Bryan Collangelo FIRST. Let the new GM have a year with Casey.....then he can decide if Casey is the coach that we need to move forward with.

              I must admit that my only issues with Dwane Casey has been his stubborness to play AB "come hell or high water" and his other sub patterns such as leaving in the bench too long/hockey lineups/Not playing JV in crunch time.

              I'm willing to give Casey the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his handling of the rookies (He knows much more than we do and Demar and Ed have both improved greatly under Casey's leadership). I also understand his preference to play AA over Ross because lets be honest.....AA is better than Ross at THIS moment (potential aside). I have no doubt that Ross will end up being a better player....but he needs to put in the work over the summer and I hope he learnt what it takes from watching AA steal his minutes.

              I actually like Dwane Casey.....This team always seems to play HARD for him. I just wish he would work on the above "issues" because he can be an excellent head coach for us. He definitely NEEDS an offensive minded assistant coach to help him run plays in crunch time so that we don't continue to lose games in the 4th (when defences tighten up).

              Overall I think we should be asking for Bryan's head on a platter. Casey deserves the chance to coach a team with a competent GM running the show (BC always seems to have holes in his rosters). A head coach can only do so much with the talent he's given!! We have Rudy, now we need a GM who can clean up the mess BC has created and deal with the AB situation.

              I'm looking forward to the next few months to see what happens.

              Comment


              • #82
                Craiger wrote: View Post
                Last offseason Coach Casey was above all criticism. Everything he touched turned to gold, he was one of the key reasons the team would improve and HE was the team's culture.

                Now the Raptors world has swung upside down. Casey shouldn't be a head coach, he can't coach certain aspects of the game, his decisions are the reason the Raptors lost games X, Y and Z, and its time he's replaced.

                Haven't we heard this story before? I don't know, say twice previously in the last 7 seasons?

                Unfortunately for Casey (and fans), he's had a GM who has done a poor job identifying talent and building a team in general. Leaving Coach Casey in a terribly ackward spot - building certain individuals trade value, using players to justify intended purposes even if its not in the teams best interest, while also winning games, while also trying to build for the future, while playing a style of game that does not at all mesh with his.
                That this discussion is even taking place should be yet another enourmous smack in the face for Colangelo.
                Casey is nothing more than a symptom of Colangelo's short sighted, bait and switch, "I'll sell you gelato but give you luke warm cream" method of ego preserving team building.

                Casey was brought in because Colangelo was building around Bargnani, thought to imitate the Dallas Mavericks, and wanted to convince a sour fan base that yes he knew and cared about defense. Going into this season Colangelo had not only convinced himself he had accomplished much of the above (which was ridiculous given the small sample of 1) Bargnani 2) a single shortened season 3) how poor Toronto's real results were) but he could add a Casey unfriendly Phoenix north edge to the team. All this while no longer being able to contain his waiting under the surface 'I'll prove it was me and not daddy' old self.

                The result - this team was trying to simultaneously be (through management, coaches, and players)

                -the championship Dallas Mavericks (Colangelo's pseudo-plan)
                -the run and gun Suns (Colangelo's prefered style)
                -the 2005x dynansty Detroit Pistons (Casey's prefered style)

                without the personnel or talent to do any of them. Now this team is sitting on a 2007 Washington Wizards-esq roster. A rather random mix of overpayed young and veteran talent (and untalented alike) trying to be all things at once but have problems being anything at once.


                Ok so that may be a bit ranty and confusing but I'll try and sum up.

                Colangelo (or hopefully a new GM) needs to make a decision. Do they want to win now or do they want to rebuild?

                If the plan is to win now, and are willing to trade away guys like Val and Ross to add quality veterans, with a slow paced defensive focus - Casey is the man for the job

                If the plan is to do pretty much anything else (rebuild, high octane offense etc) - Casey is not the man for the job

                If the plan is to do continue down the path the team has, with an ever shifting focus, quick reaction moves, and ego driven decisions - it doesn't matter who the coach is.
                + 1

                I agree with this! Let's NOT lose sight of the real issue here folks!

                Casey needs a competent GM because we ALL see what he can do with a bunch of scrubs. The problem has always been AB NOT fitting into Casey's style of play. Yet, Casey had to play him to boost his value or to validate BC's weird obsession with Bargs.

                BC is obviously too attached to the guy or he would've noticed that AB is NOT a winning player because he cannot do the "little things" that a team needs to win consistently UNLESS he's super motivated (which is not very often - 13 games??).

                Funny thing is I like BC (his swagger and confidence). I have no doubt he could sell me a car and a house (quite easily). I work in sales and I know a good sales guy when i hear/see one. BUT we can't be fooled this time around. Decline the option on his last year and MOVE ON. We need a new era of Raptors Basketball.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
                  It hasn't been long enough that an attachment could have developed. It was not talked about much then but I think Mitchell's departure did cause some players to be disheartened.
                  You can't fire a coach after season 2. season 1 was good by all standards. I think he does need severe help on the offensive end though.
                  @RavNation

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                  • #84
                    I still have no voted.

                    I am unsure.

                    I was really impressed with what Casey did last season -accountability, getting guys to buy in, one of the hardest working teams in the league, upper half of defense and rebounding for the first time in years.

                    Unfortunately this season, everything went out the door from above but to make matters worse the talent got better but the results did not match.

                    Honestly, to me, it feels like last year was a total waste. Had last year been this year... wow. If the Raps played as they did this season last year, last year would have brought in one of the more desired players through the draft..... ahhhh, screw it, I'm not playing coulda, shoulda, woulda.

                    As for this year: come hell or high water, refusal to play ED early, refusal to play JV significant despite being one of best players on team, crushing TR progress and confidence with inconsistent opportunities and putting in situations to fail (i.e. playing with AA and expecting him to be effective), horrible substitutions, horrible execution, horrible strategy and play calilng. Ugh.

                    I would have liked last year to have been a step back and this year to be 2 steps forward versus a step forward last year and a step back this season.

                    I guess if I gave Bargnani 6 years I can give Casey a third..... but I'd love to get a proven winning coach.... for once.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Matt52 wrote: View Post
                      but I'd love to get a proven winning coach.... for once.

                      When your team is about to tank you fire the great coach because they don't want or deserve to get the Ls added to their career record. But the Jay Triano's of the world would love the opportunity to prove themselves. So you get teachers molding young players and collecting losses. When you sense you are about to climb the ranks you hire a coach with some pedigree. You play your close to 500 basketball and that coach either proves himself OR the upper echelon of coaches start looking at your team like it could be worth coaching. With this current roster and record if we called up Phil Jackson and said "hey buddy, ten million a year and influence on all basketball matters". He would very kindly tell us to hoop our heads. This is why I say next year is the test. You will have your roster stability, your year of additional growth and the playoffs should not be out of reach. With the amount of injuries, illness and surgeries, I think (but am too lazy to check) we have the greatest number of differing starting 5s in the league.

                      NEXT year is the make or break year for him. Gay and Lowry won't stay on a team that isn't trending upwards.
                      For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Matt52 wrote: View Post
                        As for this year: come hell or high water, refusal to play ED early, refusal to play JV significant despite being one of best players on team, crushing TR progress and confidence with inconsistent opportunities and putting in situations to fail (i.e. playing with AA and expecting him to be effective), horrible substitutions, horrible execution, horrible strategy and play calilng. Ugh.
                        Who on this roster is suited to help a guy like Ross get is offence going? Lowry is the starting PG and he isn't the best of getting others going. Jose was the only player who could do that but they moved him (rightly so) but didn't bring in a facilitator as the back-up. There isn't a single pass-first player on this roster who can initialize the offence and help guys like Ross develop. That is why I'd like to see more of Telfair and less of Lucas. Telfair has no future with the team, but he can at least help a guy who does.

                        I really don't think you can fire Casey when he has had 2 seasons. Season 1 was the lock-out shortened season. Season 2 had a major mid-season trade. You need to give the guy a chance with this roster before you write him off. BC needs to go though. He's had far too long to not put more talent on this roster.
                        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                        • #87
                          Does anyone know the identity of this team. If a basketball fan dropped in from say, Europe and asked what the finer points of the team style was...how would one describe this? Last year I saw a commitment to defense...not so this season. The team is now capped out (nearly) and no #1 in the next draft possibly and just treading water as another lower echelon team. Rather than Casey going at this time I'd rather a move be made at the top so there is a vision about direction that of course meshes with the personnel. The decision on Casey should be left to the new GM. I am not sure Stefanski is the answer...he seems like a network type of guy.

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                          • #88
                            I don't think coaching is the main (or even one of the main) problems with this team. I don't think Casey is Phil Jackson but he isn't a total putz either. It's like when everyone wanted Triano fired and thought having a defensive-minded coach like Casey in charge would improve the team. That's proven to be false. As I said, when Triano was fired, he wasn't the problem. Neither was Mitchell. The problem is much bigger.

                            Now, I am on record as wanting to clean house from the GM to the mop kids, so, I'm certainly on board with washing the coaching staff but firing Casey is absolutely pointless without first addressing all the other issues with management, vision, direction, planning, roster construction, cap management, player development, drafting, etc. Until that stuff is fixed (i.e. Colangelo and the entire front office is axed), no other changes are going to matter much.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              YYZ wrote: View Post
                              You can't fire a coach after season 2. season 1 was good by all standards. I think he does need severe help on the offensive end though.
                              I'd agree if there was progress. What's happened is that the team has regressed even in defence, supposedly Casey's strength. Offensively as you yourself have stated, there needs to be improvement.
                              Attitude Is A Choice.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                my issue with casey is if hes not doing what he was brought in for, then why is he here?
                                last year he was brought in to shape our team like the mavs which i still believe he didnt have that much influence on. he had a team full of great defensive players/vets which would probably be a top 10 defense if dantoni were coaching them. he was also meant to use bargnani in a similar fashion as dirk which we saw worked at the beginning of last year.

                                coming out this year he didnt utilize bargnani properly and was a big influence on bargs regression imo.(used him as nothing more than a floor spacer a lot of the time)
                                last year we were happy because we were tanking which the majority wanted, while keeping games close.

                                this year there was the expectation of playoffs and some of those close games were supposed to turn into wins. now this year we realize that he just sucks at coaching an offense and despite having more talent, doesnt make the right moves to get a w.

                                we are now stuck as a team with no identity(bad defense), mediorce iso offense and I dont think anybody has any idea of what kind of team we are moving towards.

                                we see this every other night when we just decide to play our opponents style and hope for the best, when more often then not we wont beat a team at their own game.

                                its clear our strength isnt going to be defense so we need to get away from that mind set and stop playing guys in uncomfortable situations. we need a proven 2-way coach who can utilize our athleticism properly. a team with lowry,derozan,ross,gay,amir,jv should not be the worst in the league in fast break points

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