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Disappointing Season, Optimistic Outlook

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  • #61
    I have to disagree with Boston Rondo healthy + sullinger healthy + Green + Lee They will be a good ball club for a while they have youth on the team already putting pieces together for when Pierce and Garnett retire.

    To answer my own question I think without Bargnani we would be a playoff team. The proof is in that pudding.
    Last edited by Rapstor4Life; Tue Mar 19, 2013, 12:10 PM.

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    • #62
      CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
      Isn't the point of collecting young/cheap assets that can be mixed with cap flexibility, ultimately using them to land a big-time, high-priced player that the team couldn't otherwise attract? Isn't that exactly what BC did to acquire Gay?

      I totally understand your point - I was strongly in favor of a full rebuild immediately in the wake of the Bosh trade (and I think they blew the chance to tank last year while their #1 pick - JV - was still overseas). I'm just playing devil's advocate a little bit because sometimes I get frustrated when people talk about collecting 1st round picks year after year, seemingly in the hopes of lucking into the next LBJ or KD, as the 'OKC model' of franchise rebuilding. Isn't that approach just another 'treadmill', but just one in the lottery instead of on the playoff bubble, still dependent on lottery luck and drafting luck, to land a superstar?

      The Raptors did rebuild - they drafted pretty well for 4 straight years in the lottery - DeRozan, Davis, Valanciunas, Ross. They cashed in a redundant young player (Davis) and an expiring veteran contract (Calderon) for a very good, young SF (Gay). I know that the financial flexibiliy and rebuilding/building plan seems shot now, but I personally think that has as much to do with guys like Bargnani ($11M next season), DeRozan ($9.5M), Kleiza ($4.6M) and Fields ($6.2M), as it does with the Gay acquisition. If Bargnani's salary can be dumped, Kleiza is amnestied, DeRozan is flipped for the traditional star starting PF the majority seems to want and Fields can earn his paycheque, then suddenly I think the team would be in a very good place, both in terms of finances and young talent.
      I feel that Gay's one of the worst players that BC could have parlayed the team's assets/flexibility into, because he almost guarantees that the team will be middling-good, but not elite. His contract just eats up too much cap space, and his output doesn't justify it. I know there's some people who'll argue this, but that's my opinion.

      I'm sure that Daryl Morey could have had Gay twenty times over the past couple of years. He showed an incredible amount of patience. He was playing the "collecting assets" game for a long time, to the point where people started wondering if it could ever work, people started saying that he might get fired. But he was patient and he finally got a legit first option. Is there anyone on here who wouldn't trade Gay for Harden in a instant? What about Gay and Jonas? Or Gay, Jonas and Ross? I'd make that trade, but I don't think Morey would.
      "Stop eating your sushi."
      "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
      "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
      - Jack Armstrong

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      • #63
        JimiCliff wrote: View Post
        I feel that Gay's one of the worst players that BC could have parlayed the team's assets/flexibility into, because he almost guarantees that the team will be middling-good, but not elite. His contract just eats up too much cap space, and his output doesn't justify it. I know there's some people who'll argue this, but that's my opinion.

        I'm sure that Daryl Morey could have had Gay twenty times over the past couple of years. He showed an incredible amount of patience. He was playing the "collecting assets" game for a long time, to the point where people started wondering if it could ever work, people started saying that he might get fired. But he was patient and he finally got a legit first option. Is there anyone on here who wouldn't trade Gay for Harden in a instant? What about Gay and Jonas? Or Gay, Jonas and Ross? I'd make that trade, but I don't think Morey would.
        I'd rather have Gay/Jonas/Ross than Harden....

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        • #64
          ebrian wrote: View Post
          If ALL those things happen, then yes, we'd be in a far more desirable situation than we are currently in today.
          haha I never said it was easy, just that there is room for optimism for the time being... BC has the entire offseason to crush our hopes! lol

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          • #65
            JimiCliff wrote: View Post
            I feel that Gay's one of the worst players that BC could have parlayed the team's assets/flexibility into, because he almost guarantees that the team will be middling-good, but not elite. His contract just eats up too much cap space, and his output doesn't justify it. I know there's some people who'll argue this, but that's my opinion.

            I'm sure that Daryl Morey could have had Gay twenty times over the past couple of years. He showed an incredible amount of patience. He was playing the "collecting assets" game for a long time, to the point where people started wondering if it could ever work, people started saying that he might get fired. But he was patient and he finally got a legit first option. Is there anyone on here who wouldn't trade Gay for Harden in a instant? What about Gay and Jonas? Or Gay, Jonas and Ross? I'd make that trade, but I don't think Morey would.
            yes, I would trade Gay for Harden. I would trade any combination of our players for Harden...except Jonas. He is actually untouchable to me. I would trade him for LeBron, or maybe KD, which is never going to happen.

            I don't know why anyone would be willing to part with a C prospect like Jonas.
            Last edited by white men can't jump; Tue Mar 19, 2013, 12:24 PM.

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            • #66
              Thanks to all for the positive feedback on my write-up. I've been thinking lately about starting a blog or something in the near future, but I don't know yet, if it's going to be sports related, as I got some other interests. Recently I did several write-ups in different areas just to try myself and it's fun...

              But back to Raps. I understand that each season for the Raptors so far has started with optimism and then the inevitable disappointment, but this time around there is a legitimate reason for optimism. Multiple ones, actually.

              The overall talent level was never that balanced across all positions. In other words, we're basically mimicking the Indiana Pacers, Memphis Grizzlies model, where all 5 positions are pretty good. One Raptor might become an all-star next year (Rudy, DeRozan?), provided the team has a good record. But it's more about the balance being at a relatively high level.

              Another major reason for optimism amongst others, is that other teams in the east are more likely to get worse than improve next year and beyond. CalgaryRapsFan pointed out the reasons for that and I agree with him 100%. The only sure thing in the east is Miami. Every other team has room to dis-improve. Yeah, I just invented that word.
              Last edited by BadDinosaur; Tue Mar 19, 2013, 12:35 PM.

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              • #67
                white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                yes, I would trade Gay for Harden. I would trade any combination of our players for Harden...except Jonas. He is actually untouchable to me. I would trade him for LeBron, or maybe KD, which is never going to happen.

                I don't know why anyone would be willing to part with a C prospect like Jonas.
                I love Jonas, he's easily my favourite Raptor right now and pretty much the only reason I still watch games, but it's hard to say exactly what his ceiling is. There's very few players that I'd trade him away for, and Harden is one of them.

                Incidentally, I remember hearing that when Presti was looking for places to move Harden, Toronto was on his list, with Jonas being the centrepiece of the deal...
                "Stop eating your sushi."
                "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                - Jack Armstrong

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                • #68
                  And this is where I too often find where fans 'optimism' comes from. Overvaluing the players on the team, and 'potential' without results (usually based on age).

                  Now this isn't a Raptors thing, this is league wide thing (although Andrea Bargnani being a glaring example of local evidence). I mentioned this in the offseason and used the pre-Cho Bobcats as an example. So many Charlotte fans were excited about the Bobcats because they supposedly had such a great mix of talent, potential, youth and experience. They were a dominant defensive team, had a high quality coach and were just about to explode onto the NBA after having just made the playoffs.

                  Wallace was their untouchable allstar, who while not a 'superstar' was as close as they come. Felton was top 10 PG and the best defensive PG in the NBA. Jackson was the savy vet who could take over games. Tyrus Thomas had limitless potential and was just in the wrong mental place while in Chicago and a coach like Brown and the budding Charlotte 'defense and winning' culture would fix that. Then they had Henderson/White/Brown/Augustine who were going to be great talents (who just needed 'time'). On top of that had great trade assets in Chandler and Diaw + their 'high potential' players. The just needed 1 more peice......


                  .... except no one wanted their peices, made worse by their ownership not wanting to spend (and dumping arguably their best player and trade chip in Chandler), their 'talent' wasn't that good, their players with 'potential' didn't have high ceilings, and most importantly - the peice(s) they actually needed (stars) are exceptionally rare and expensive

                  Now I do think this Raps team is in better shape than the 2010 Bobcats (although that may just be me 'overvaluing talent' as a fan) but basically at the margins.


                  -'Talent' needs to be proven on some level, over a period of time, not just assumed because of the style game a person plays. To explain, this year, I'd argue the 'potential' of Lilliard, Davis, Barnes and Drummond should be seen as much higher than Robinson or MKG or Rivers. Those 4 have shown it, and maintained it at differing levels, over the course of the season.

                  - If you don't want a player on your team, you shouldn't expect someone else will. One man's trash may be another man's treasure. But most of the time its still just trash.

                  -The NBA is a business, and we shouldn't expect all but the rarest of teams to spend with abandon.

                  - Culture is a buzzword to explain away teams who can find talent where others don't or can't (San Anotonio, LA etc)

                  - And perhaps most importantly, a superstar is the difference maker, and a player simply being 'the best on the team' is NOT, nor should it be accepted as, enough.


                  Anyways I said I didn't want to be a debbie downer, and yet here I am probably doing it. So I'll try nor to ruin the fun anymore.
                  Last edited by Craiger; Tue Mar 19, 2013, 01:34 PM.

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                  • #69
                    Does anyone remember the James Harden for Derozan + pick rumour thing? Apparently it was actually offered?

                    Oh my god. Had that happened ACTUALLY....... Sorry, I'm fantasizing. But, had everything gone the way, WITH Gay trade?

                    *sigh* #LifeOfARaptorFan
                    Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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                    • #70
                      Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
                      I have to disagree with Boston Rondo healthy + sullinger healthy + Green + Lee They will be a good ball club for a while they have youth on the team already putting pieces together for when Pierce and Garnett retire.

                      To answer my own question I think without Bargnani we would be a playoff team. The proof is in that pudding.
                      I agree, Boston would be a solid club down the road.

                      Rondo, Bradley, Crawford, Green, Sullinger, Melo. They will not be contenders, but they will be looking at the playoffs every season. Don't forget Rondo is a star point guard, Green is a really solid player, and Sullinger will develop into something really nice down the road.
                      Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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                      • #71
                        Matt52 wrote: View Post
                        And look at the teams Toronto has played:

                        Atlanta
                        Knicks x2
                        Miami x2
                        Boston x2
                        Indiana x2
                        Denver
                        LA Clippers
                        Memphis
                        Milwaukee
                        Golden State

                        You are reaching when you include Mavs and Blazers. Both are under .500.

                        I'm not ignoring the stats - you are my friend. TOronto is 10-11 since trade. Detroit is 6-15. Detroit is worse offensively and defensively than before the trade.

                        You lack of objectivity is especially telling with the bold statement. The Raptors are a better team now than they were before the trade.

                        You delusions with the memory of Jose is especially telling with the underlined statement. You clearly don't remember Jose pounding the ball as players stood watching one guy run off screens and the consistent 6-8 minutes stretches without a field goal. The Raptors offense was shit with Calderon and it is still shit without him. Miami put on a ball movement clinic today. The Raptors had no ball movement with Jose and they have no ball movement without him.
                        Don't forget Drummond has been hurt for a while now (been out almost 5 week). He was a HUGE part of the Pistons defense.

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                        • #72
                          JimiCliff wrote: View Post
                          I love Jonas, he's easily my favourite Raptor right now and pretty much the only reason I still watch games, but it's hard to say exactly what his ceiling is. There's very few players that I'd trade him away for, and Harden is one of them.

                          Incidentally, I remember hearing that when Presti was looking for places to move Harden, Toronto was on his list, with Jonas being the centrepiece of the deal...
                          Yeah, I was happy that deal never took place. Again, I would trade any other combination of players for Harden, but I guess I'm a bit old school, and would never trade a big who could be a franchise player for a guard who's closer to being one.

                          Obviously, this is personal opinion, but on JV's ceiling, I think the sky is the limit. I can't think of a skill you want from your C that he hasn't shown multiple flashes of this season. And his notable areas of struggle are help D and fouling, which is normal for any rookie big. He looks like the complete package. I feel like his floor is a bigger/stronger, better scoring Joakim Noah. That sounds like a perennial all-star to me, and someone who might be in the conversation for best C in the game for years.

                          In fact, if you sub C for SG up in the above paragraph, I'd say you could describe Harden at his earlier stage of development. Harden is actually my favorite SG in the league, and I remember people doubting if he was worth the pick in his rookie year, where he averaged 9 ppg off the bench on about 40% shooting. But he so obviously had all the tools you could possibly ever want in a SG. That's basically how I see JV as a C.

                          So getting back to the original question...I was literally not kidding when I said I would trade any other combination of players for Harden...Then I would build the team around him and JV.
                          Last edited by white men can't jump; Tue Mar 19, 2013, 02:29 PM.

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                          • #73
                            Craiger wrote: View Post
                            Not to be a debbie downer in this thread, but at what point do we realize or accept that 'optimism' has no impact on the results? It only offers a temporary distraction from reality
                            Not to be a preacher but 'optimism' is not dependent on reason/s. It is not 'temporary'. If it is(temporary), it's not real.
                            Attitude Is A Choice.

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                            • #74
                              Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
                              Not to be a preacher but 'optimism' is not dependent on reason/s. It is not 'temporary'. If it is(temporary), it's not real.
                              And thats more or less the point.

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                              • #75
                                RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
                                I agree, Boston would be a solid club down the road.

                                Rondo, Bradley, Crawford, Green, Sullinger, Melo. They will not be contenders, but they will be looking at the playoffs every season. Don't forget Rondo is a star point guard, Green is a really solid player, and Sullinger will develop into something really nice down the road.
                                That's IF rondo is still the same player after that injury

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