Did The Raps Mess Up Barg's Development?

[Buddahfan]

Garnett is well over 7 feet, and the problem is not the position that Garnett didn't want to play, but the mindset. Players saw the center position as a limiting position, which is incredibly ironic considering that the power forward position used to simply be bangers who had little offense but just did the dirty work. Garnett doesn't fit to the mould of a traditional power forward just as he wouldn't fit the mould of a traditional center. The big problem with moving Garnett to center was that it took away his strengths on defense. He's never been a great post defender and excels at getting out and guarding guys outside. Garnett's biggest strength is team defense. Bargnani's biggest strength on defense is post defense and his biggest weakness is team defense.

Interestingly enough KG never played next to a true center until he had been in league seven seasons

Here is the list of big players who played with KG by year while at MN

Tom Gugliotta - F
Tom Gugliotta - F
Cherokee Parks - C/F
Joe Smith - F
Joe Smith - F
LePhonso Ellis - F
Rosho - C
Rosho - C
Mark Madsen - F
Wally Szczerbiak - F and Michael Olowokandi - C
Mark Blount C and Michael Olowokandi - C
Mark Blount C

So in the 12 season that KG was with MN he played

6 years with a PF
5 years with a C
1 year with a C/F

It wasn't until his game was already developed that he started to play next to Centers.

[vinnie_paz]

I think there is some merit to this thread.

If you look at Dirk, he still has no post game, cannot attack the basket, plays terrible defense, and is not a great rebounder. But he's also won an MVP and led his team deep into the post season.

what game are you watching ? what research did you do to come to the conclusion that dirk is not a great rebounder ?

the man has a career average (12 seasons) of 8.5 rebounds per game

in 2001-2002 and 2002-2003 he averaged 9.9 rebounds per game.

[Killingjoke]

Garnett grew slightly from 6-11 to ``6-11 and three-quarters,'' as Garnett puts it. The second-year star does not want to be listed at 7 feet, although he might already be there. ``Kevin thinks if he's a 7-footer, we're going to put him at center,'' Saunders said. ``I told him he doesn't have to worry about that.''- October 7th, 1996 St Paul Pioneer Press.

His pre-draft measurement was 6'11" barefoot so the article seems legit when it says that he grew slightly to 6'11.75" and the same newspaper said he measured 7'1"(probably in sneakers) a year later. He was barely 19 when he was drafted, so growing slightly is not hard to believe


What if the T-wolves insisted that Garnett bulk-up and stay down low like a traditional center?

I remember he was being interviewed I think at the All Star Game and a reporter from TV said he's 7 feet and he actually corrected her and said 6'11

[Buddahfan]

I remember he was being interviewed I think at the All Star Game and a reporter from TV said he's 7 feet and he actually corrected her and said 6'11

A lot of the 7 footers who are maybe 7'1" at the most say they are 6'11". For some reason which I heard a NBA analyst mention but can't remember who it was or what the reason was, a lot of these guys don't want to be identified as 7 feet tall.

Maybe there is some kind of social stigma that goes with it.

Many men are 6 feet something so that is pretty common. Even if you are 6'11" you are still six feet something.

However, when you are 7 feet you are 7 feet which kind of makes you a freak in society.

So maybe that is the reason that a lot of the guys who can get away with it say they are only 6'11" Sheed who is over 7 feet says that he is 6'11"

However, when you get to be like Kareem who is as I recall a few inches north of 7 feet you really can't get away with telling people that you are only 6'11". The lie becomes to obvious and no basketball person who stands near you will buy it.

[smushmush]

The history of Smitch has involved developing bigs. Both Bosh and Garnett owe quite a bit of their development to Smitch. The fact that Bargs deficencies come down to his lack of toughness & aggression and Bargs being in Smitch's doghouse -- also not coincidence!!! The worst thing for his development was letting Smitch go before he turned Bargs into an angry SOB. Everyone knew he had talent. But as soon as Smitch left he no longer had to fight to get playing time. That's why his growth has been stunted.

+1. Smitch putting Bargs in his dog house till Bargs learnt how to rebound and box out would have done Bargs a lot of good, but "are you kidding me? You are benching my #1 draft pick" BC would have none of it. Bargs just gets to coast through games and gets his cool 30 minutes a night for being the GM's boy.lol.

[smushmush]

I think there is some merit to this thread.

If you look at Dirk, he still has no post game, cannot attack the basket, plays terrible defense, and is not a great rebounder. But he's also won an MVP and led his team deep into the post season.

He did this because he was allowed to play to his strengths. First of all, he was allowed to play his natural position. He was paired with bigs who could make up for his deficiencies. He was allowed to jack up 3s and mid-range jumpers all day. Again matched with other players (Josh Howard, Jason Terry) who could break down defenses off the bounce.

Of course, having a hall of fame PG helps, but I definitely see where Bargs got the short end of the stick in many of these respects.

Bargs has a fantastic 3, has much better handles/passing than dirk, and is great mid range. Maybe the OP was right. Maybe the Rpators should just let him do those things.

Ask the Dallas Mavericks how it has turned out playing "I don't play defense and rebound like a big, but I can score 42 points to make my team win" Dirk Nowitzki. How many championships? 0. I feel sad for Mark Cuban building around Dirk as he could have a won a ring with all those spending if he had a legit " I play defense and rebound" big.

[smushmush]

It's very difficult to look at Bargs now and ask what if...? It's not tangible and pure theory. Yeah you can bring up Milicic and Radmanovic, but cmon. Have you heard those guys talk? They have the wrong attitude about the game and blame everything but themselves.

I like the example of Dirk. Another example is Iverson. A couple of years trying to get him to play PG nearly gave coach Brown a mental breakdown. Move him to SG, let him play his game... he gets MVP, they go to the finals.

The league has a history of players who excel at a few things and carve a niche for themselves... either offensively or defensively.

Players with true talent will take their strengths, develop them, and make it work for them in the NBA. Yeah, there are scouting reports, but the starters of the league adapt. No matter what the scouting report says, Dirk will find a way to get his. Everyone in the league knows he's about the 3's and pull-up/fadeaway mid-range... does that stop him? No.

To take an example from another sport--Tennis. Andy Roddick obviously does not have the all-around game of Nadal, Federer, or even Murray. Years ago, before Andy was able to crack the top 3, his coaches always focused on his weaknesses. Then one coach came along and said, you know what?... Let's use your biggest weapons--your serve and forehand. Let's develop those tools and use them to take you to the top. Shortly after, Andy breaks the top-3 in world rankings. He's fallen since then, not because he has gotten much worse, but because many players with better all-around games have surpassed him. But he is a great example of someone who takes what he has and runs with it. He is still one of the best players in the world.

Bargs will never be a top-tier star in the league. He just doesn't have all the tools to be that player. Why couldn't we just let him run with the amazing gifts he had, and develop them to the peak of his ability? IF he can't adjust to the scouting reports after that, well then, he wasn't meant to be an elite player in the league.

If Bargs could develop the skills he has as the first big of the bench with a decent contract, I will be okay with that. Non-defensive bigs a la Bargs are not starters on winning teams. 'Nuff said.

[Buddahfan]

If Bargs could develop the skills he has as the first big of the bench with a decent contract, I will be okay with that. Non-defensive bigs a la Bargs are not starters on winning teams. 'Nuff said.

Depending on how Davis and Johnson play together Bargnani may not have time to develop coming off the bench skills before he gets to actually use them.

[SirChillyMost]

I think there is some merit to this thread.

If you look at Dirk, he still has no post game, cannot attack the basket, plays terrible defense, and is not a great rebounder. But he's also won an MVP and led his team deep into the post season.

He did this because he was allowed to play to his strengths. First of all, he was allowed to play his natural position. He was paired with bigs who could make up for his deficiencies. He was allowed to jack up 3s and mid-range jumpers all day. Again matched with other players (Josh Howard, Jason Terry) who could break down defenses off the bounce.

Of course, having a hall of fame PG helps, but I definitely see where Bargs got the short end of the stick in many of these respects.

Bargs has a fantastic 3, has much better handles/passing than dirk, and is great mid range. Maybe the OP was right. Maybe the Rpators should just let him do those things.

Dirk's career average for rebounds is 8.5- Bargnani's is 4.8.

Dirk>>>>>>>>>>>>Barg's

[pistol pete]

Silly premise, without making a statement as to what Bargs position is supposed to be, especially on defense. If he is supposed to play PF or C then he HAS TO rebound. Repeat he HAS TO rebound. And also provide interior help D. Both of which he sucks at. So from that standpoint, NO, we did not mess up his development. If the poster is suggested that Andrea is should have been developed as a wing player, i.e., SF, then we already know that doesn't work either, because he's not quick enough to guard opposing SFs, and his quickness advantage is nullified when he puts the ball on the floor. Also, he doesn't have enough post offense to consistently punish shorter SFs. So, did we mess up Barg's development? The answer is no, no and no.

Your post is a bit incoherent. The very fact of moving Barg from PF, to C, to SF and back, for two years, has at least slowed down his development, if not messed up.

[Marz]

+1. Smitch putting Bargs in his dog house till Bargs learnt how to rebound and box out would have done Bargs a lot of good, but "are you kidding me? You are benching my #1 draft pick" BC would have none of it. Bargs just gets to coast through games and gets his cool 30 minutes a night for being the GM's boy.lol.

You're shitting me right? Does no one remember the Mitchell years? He's the biggest reason the "Raps messed up Bargs' development". Dude didn't give him consistent minutes or even a consistent position. Colangelo bringing in Jermaine O'Neal also didn't help. And this "dog house until they learn" philosophy was already tried with Joey Graham and failed miserabley.

[JoePanini]

You're shitting me right? Does no one remember the Mitchell years? He's the biggest reason the "Raps messed up Bargs' development". Dude didn't give him consistent minutes or even a consistent position. Colangelo bringing in Jermaine O'Neal also didn't help. And this "dog house until they learn" philosophy was already tried with Joey Graham and failed miserabley.

Exactly.

[Buddahfan]

You're shitting me right? Does no one remember the Mitchell years? He's the biggest reason the "Raps messed up Bargs' development". Dude didn't give him consistent minutes or even a consistent position. Colangelo bringing in Jermaine O'Neal also didn't help. And this "dog house until they learn" philosophy was already tried with Joey Graham and failed miserabley.

That could be a very good point about JO's presence in Toronto

Bargs did show noticeably improvement as last season rolled along in his man to man defense at the center position.

However JO in Toronto probably had very little negative if no impact on the growth of Bargs poor team defense and rebounding. Though one could argue that team defense responsibilities at the center position are different than at the PF or SF position which they are.

[Buddahfan]

You're shitting me right? Does no one remember the Mitchell years? He's the biggest reason the "Raps messed up Bargs' development". Dude didn't give him consistent minutes or even a consistent position. Colangelo bringing in Jermaine O'Neal also didn't help. And this "dog house until they learn" philosophy was already tried with Joey Graham and failed miserabley.

That comment didn't make much sense to me either, but not having been around then I was hesitate to comment about it.

[Tim W.]

Your post is a bit incoherent. The very fact of moving Barg from PF, to C, to SF and back, for two years, has at least slowed down his development, if not messed up.

Bargnani only moved to SF (for a short period) when he failed to secure the center position after a poor second season. He only played that position while Jermaine was a Raptor. Besides, moving between the positions certainly didn't seem to hinder Dirk's development. He played all three positions early in his career. Bosh played out of position, at center, quite a bit early in his career. Three and a half of his four years in the league he has played at center, which is the position he plays best at.

Again, these are all excuses that take the responsibility away from Bargnani. A good player will excel when given minutes. Bargnani has been given plenty of minutes during his career. There's simply no excuse why he has not taken advantage of those minutes. Countless players have excelled under much worse circumstances.