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Disgruntled Fans 2012: Extended stinkfest? (#296)

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  • NoBan wrote: View Post
    Bayless did not fit the system. He was an under-average defender and a me-first scorer. Both of those do not fit our system. There's a reason why Bayless bounces around so much.

    DeRozen is a slightly better fit due to better lateral quickness on D, but he's a very poor shot that regressed in his third year. That's not a serviceable piece unless youre looking for an 8th man

    Davis is supposed to be a strong defender with a work-in-progress offensive game. Except he often misses his assignment on D, seems overwhelmed by the speed of the NBA, and the "progress" on the offensive side is non-existent. Again, not serviceable.

    Amir is actually serviceable. He's finally got his head on straight out there, knows his assignments, has a nose for the ball and is still quite athletic. He's serviceable as a 3rd guy in a 3-big-man rotation. He's by no means a key piece of a contender.

    JJ is too fat and slow to guard NBA 3's on a night-in, night-out basis. He's got a good bball IQ and handle, but he's not good enough to start for a legit playoff team. He'd be a nice backup. I like James, but again it's not unreasonable to say that his career will be 100% unremarkable.
    Actually, these are very valid points, and i have seen these while watching the games.

    But let me put my two cents in again....

    Bayless fits the system. DC and BC said from day one that they are instilling an uptempo type of game, fewer sets and more pushing the pace. And they even want to continue doing that towards next season - http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/...ronto-raptors/. And we all know Bayless is an uptempo player. he pushes the ball hard and always tries to lead the fastbreak. Defensively, he was a 106 last season which i think is a bit above average. The reason why he "bounced around so much" was 1) when he was in portland, he played behind andre miller and roy 2) In NO, he played behind Paul and 3) the raps let him go because they acquired lowry and there were no takers for calderon and his massive contract.

    DD took more threes this season and more perimeter shots than drives thats why his % took a hit. I dont think a 16/2/3 guy in his 4th season can be labeled as an 8th man.

    Davis was injured coming to draft, did not have a training camp his rookie season and sophomore season, and is splitting time with Amir. Jury is still out.

    JJ is 6-9 and 248. Lebron is 6-8 and 250. Artest is 6-7 and 260. I think he's the right size for his height. He had a 100 def. rating last season and 103 avg. so i think he's able to keep up with his man. unless you specifically point out lebron, durant who are basically unguardable. I dont think he is a legit starter, but he definitely play enough minutes to be a factor.

    Comment


    • our plan is sh*t, but at least we have a plan!


      ..... ladies and gentlemen, your 2012 raptors offseason!

      Comment


      • NoBan wrote: View Post
        the over-merging that goes on here is ridiculous.

        just let the topics run their course and drop to the bottom when they lose steam.

        If 2 threads are about the exact same thing and are posted at the same time.. go ahead and merge. But don't merge threads just because they are semi-related and you are a mod who can merge things. It's so frustrating to be involved in an exchange and then is just disappears because some mod decided the board wasn't pretty enough.
        I do agree with NoBan here. sometimes, the threads are lost because they get merged with others. Maybe let the threads die down then merge.

        Comment


        • NoBan wrote: View Post
          the over-merging that goes on here is ridiculous.

          just let the topics run their course and drop to the bottom when they lose steam.

          If 2 threads are about the exact same thing and are posted at the same time.. go ahead and merge. But don't merge threads just because they are semi-related and you are a mod who can merge things. It's so frustrating to be involved in an exchange and then is just disappears because some mod decided the board wasn't pretty enough.
          I was expressing sarcasm. Get the fact that I said merge this thread with "Dumb things Raptor Fans say"?

          If you don't like the 'over-merging', bring it up with them, I'm not the one to rant about your problems to find a discussion.

          This is nothing but another negative opinion which continues to be the reason why nobody likes to come and play for Toronto.
          People are posting 'threads' which should be 'replies' and 'comments' on a REAL thread.

          'Hey the team sucks, and they will for a long time because we have so on, and so on... ' Okay? What's your argument? Oh, Demar can't shoot. Than we go on and on about how Demar can't shoot, and his potential, his improvements and all that shit. Next thing you know, we are talking about Demar Derozan, therefore, merge it with the 'DeChosen" thread.

          Catch the message? Or did that also dissapear?
          Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

          Comment


          • RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
            I was expressing sarcasm. Get the fact that I said merge this thread with "Dumb things Raptor Fans say"?

            If you don't like the 'over-merging', bring it up with them, I'm not the one to rant about your problems to find a discussion.

            This is nothing but another negative opinion which continues to be the reason why nobody likes to come and play for Toronto.
            People are posting 'threads' which should be 'replies' and 'comments' on a REAL thread.

            'Hey the team sucks, and they will for a long time because we have so on, and so on... ' Okay? What's your argument? Oh, Demar can't shoot. Than we go on and on about how Demar can't shoot, and his potential, his improvements and all that shit. Next thing you know, we are talking about Demar Derozan, therefore, merge it with the 'DeChosen" thread.

            Catch the message? Or did that also dissapear?

            Calm down, big fella. I did not intend to target your post specifically.

            This thread has a poor title, but the subject is legit - the guy doesn't want to trade our young players for perceived upgrades due to past experiences like hibbert (funny that he didnt bring up bender, haha). It's a legit (albeit wrong) point that deserves to stand alone instead of merging into an umbrella thread where many discussions are forced together. Merging threads so frequently makes it difficult to find your past discussions and ultimately drives down the posting and readship of the site.

            Comment


            • Crazy

              pesterm1 wrote: View Post
              hmmm interesting. Im a security guard as well. Whats the craziest story you have? Anything really weird go down at the ACC ?


              Well i find it a bit weird how Casey walks around the ACC with the cell phone tucked inside his hat. I mean why not just get a blue tooth. I'm mostly at the ACC condo site underground parking...

              Those rides are more expensive then my rented basement value.
              It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up.


              Muhammad Ali

              Comment


              • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                How do we know he was caught off guard with Calderon? BC's been trying to unload him for 2 years, I highly doubt he was ever really solidly in the plans for the upcoming season, despite all the politically correct bromance stuff he's said about Jose in the media since the Lowry trade went through. I think it's just a matter of Calderon's agent going public with his agent's desire to leave Toronto, rather than a new, shocking, unexpected development.

                It also sounds like BC had been talking to Houston about Lowry since well before the draft, so I'm guessing he already had his contingency plan in place. I do agree that the Fields offer might have been a little high, but RFA offers usually are and BC admitted as much... it would have been a genius move had Nash signed and he could still be made to look good if Fields returns to the form he showed during his rookie season and improves on that each of the next three years.

                I agree that I'm waiting for the next move with baded breath, but I think BC definitely has been following a plan this offseason, whether we fully agree with it (so far) or not.
                Sad as it may sound but I think he was still keeping Jose in the backburner incase the Lowry trade didnt pan out. And now that he got Lowry, it so happened that most of the other teams were able to acquire PGs as well, so the market for Jose got smaller.

                I think he has a plan. Of course, not all plans are executed successfully, specially in their business wherein moves are not just dependent on them, but with other GMs as well. They wanted to see if Bargnani is really a PF so they moved him to the PF spot and drafted a C in JV. They didnt add any major pieces last year to open cap space. they traded for Lowry who can address the defensive issues in the 1 spot. Seems like he had/has a plan and pieces are slowly coming together.

                Comment


                • Letter N wrote: View Post
                  Do lots of other company presidents and CEOs share their plans with you or is it just Bryan Colangelo that sits with you in the lobby discussing the future of his multi-million dollar organization?
                  Its mostly BC and ACC Staff ...sometimes I bump into the MLSE BOD walking in and out of the Condo Parking. I hear the chatter, I pay attention.
                  BC is a very good guy...humble. You have to put things into total business perpsective to excute the plan...in business you get thing coming out from left field unexpected or of low probability...BC knew that JOSE wouldnt be happy. BUT THIS DOESNT matter we're not here to baby JOSE like was done with VC...it all business

                  BC has a plan with the objective to make the team better with resources at hand...if next year we have more wins but stil dont make the playoffs...and show more progress then last....you see what i mean.

                  Things dont happen over night and you dont find Lebrons types on Yonge and Dundas..
                  It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up.


                  Muhammad Ali

                  Comment


                  • NoBan wrote: View Post
                    Calm down, big fella. I did not intend to target your post specifically.

                    This thread has a poor title, but the subject is legit - the guy doesn't want to trade our young players for perceived upgrades due to past experiences like hibbert (funny that he didnt bring up bender, haha). It's a legit (albeit wrong) point that deserves to stand alone instead of merging into an umbrella thread where many discussions are forced together. Merging threads so frequently makes it difficult to find your past discussions and ultimately drives down the posting and readship of the site.
                    No worries. I do agree that at odd times some threads are merged very quickly, but I think some things started as threads, can be brought up in others. This is a discussion specifically that has been discussed over and over again, and it just becomes annoying to see the same topics come up on an island frequently.

                    Now to the topic.
                    I have optimism towards BC's plan, I'm quite excited with the addition of Lowry, because he automatically becomes a better upgrade at the point guard, and possibly our best player, (second, behind a healthy 13 game Bargnani ;P).

                    I think patience is required, the off-season just started OFFICIALLY 2 days ago, and we are already looking for the roster to be locked up, JJ is still on the team, we have an upgrade of Lowry over Calderon, and Derozan's experience with USA should be a lock for him on this team.

                    Gonna take the cliche quote someone said in another thread (I think it was Ceez) Rome wasn't built in a day. Trading younger, higher potential players for proven studs like Iguodala is a 50/50 opinion for everyone. But saying the team sucks if we trade our players who haven't fully proven they CAN be good, is thrown too high. If you think about, we let Bayless and Forbes go to open the opportunity for Lowry to be in the fold.
                    Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

                    Comment


                    • Please note...in professional sports...your only plan if in the building stage is to nurture your kids into star etc.
                      Everything else is based on UFA, player TRade demands, availaibilities etc... This second element is very tricky as you know not when the next player is available etc...

                      Planning is one thing...but in sports its very complicated to say oh lets get him. It aint that easy.

                      BC knows this...he's a fan of analytics software stuff but also realizes some things can't be measured...you can't measure Jose's loyalty nor Nash is off court impact. Regardless its tricky game...I'm biased perhaps but I like BC

                      and reality is who else would consider for a GM

                      Peace
                      It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up.


                      Muhammad Ali

                      Comment


                      • TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
                        Except for Alabi, the 5 players you mentioned are very serviceable, and IMO, fits the Raps system and the team objectives. Of course if it means getting a superstar by trading these players is possible then of course do it, but to write them off coz theyre not "all-star" material is IMO a bit unreasonable.
                        I agree. Why do they give Bargs 7 years to get his SHHH together and then dump Bayless ( and possibly JJ, Davis, DeRozen) so quickly?

                        Bayless reminds me so much of Billups - it will really hurt if he realizes his potential. They did not have to give him a big role but to loose him for nothing????

                        Oh yeah I forgot it is MLSE they are all about bottom line. So to amnesty calderon and keep Bayless that would mean they would be paying for both players...
                        "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

                        Comment


                        • TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
                          To include JV, Ross and Acy in the equation and say adding them is a significant improvement from last year's team is still a bit premature, IMO. We have not seen these three play in an actual NBA so we cant really say how their play will affect the standings for the Raptors.
                          Thats just it!

                          I remember when Colangelo paraded Alabi and Davis up as being the solution to the defense rebounding and rugged interior presence.

                          so we keep getting the bait and switch.... oh no it wasn't those guys who are the answer .... it's THESE GUYS... and on we go back to ground ZERO with 2 pieces who are unknown quantities.
                          "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

                          Comment


                          • You realize Iguodala is 28 years old... it's not like he's on the decline or anything. I believe a move would actually help him and increase his production. Picking him up for the next 2 years is a great move and will benefit the team. He's the prototypical SF we've been searching for the past decade.

                            I have no issues giving up either Ed/DD plus JJ, Calderon in a package deal. I would prefer to keep DD but I feel Philly wouldn't accept the trade without him.

                            I just hope BC doesn't go overboard giving up ALL our young assets in a rumoured deal.

                            Comment


                            • charlz wrote: View Post
                              I agree. Why do they give Bargs 7 years to get his SHHH together and then dump Bayless ( and possibly JJ, Davis, DeRozen) so quickly?

                              Bayless reminds me so much of Billups - it will really hurt if he realizes his potential. They did not have to give him a big role but to loose him for nothing????

                              Oh yeah I forgot it is MLSE they are all about bottom line. So to amnesty calderon and keep Bayless that would mean they would be paying for both players...
                              Bayless was certainly not at the same level Billups was at, even when he was in Toronto. I remember him being much more of a pass-first PG than Bayless has ever shown and he wasn't nearly as out of control as Bayless was half the time. Bayless simploy wasn't worth his QO, especially once Lowry was acquired.

                              As for DD/JJ/Davis, I don't think anybody has suggested dumping them. The only suggestions I've read is to attempt to turn them (3 decent, inconsistent role players who still have 'potential' - which may or may not ever blossom) into a proven all-star type of player. I wouldn't consider that giving up on them, nor would it be a trade that would be easy to make, even when a proven veteran player is coming back in return.

                              I don't understand how trading a player suddenly equates to "dumping" him or "giving up on" him or some other emotional break-up type of let down. It's a sport, it's a business and the decisions (whether easy or hard) are not made with emotions, but rather logic and rationale. Yes the 3 players you mentioned are good and have legitimate potential. However, if they could be turned into a legit all-star caliber player, when the roster is deep enough to survive losing them (benefit of all that depth we keep talking about), then I don't get the downside?

                              Comment


                              • RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
                                No worries. I do agree that at odd times some threads are merged very quickly, but I think some things started as threads, can be brought up in others. This is a discussion specifically that has been discussed over and over again, and it just becomes annoying to see the same topics come up on an island frequently.

                                Now to the topic.
                                I have optimism towards BC's plan, I'm quite excited with the addition of Lowry, because he automatically becomes a better upgrade at the point guard, and possibly our best player, (second, behind a healthy 13 game Bargnani ;P).

                                I think patience is required, the off-season just started OFFICIALLY 2 days ago, and we are already looking for the roster to be locked up, JJ is still on the team, we have an upgrade of Lowry over Calderon, and Derozan's experience with USA should be a lock for him on this team.

                                Gonna take the cliche quote someone said in another thread (I think it was Ceez) Rome wasn't built in a day. Trading younger, higher potential players for proven studs like Iguodala is a 50/50 opinion for everyone. But saying the team sucks if we trade our players who haven't fully proven they CAN be good, is thrown too high. If you think about, we let Bayless and Forbes go to open the opportunity for Lowry to be in the fold.
                                +1

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