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  • #91
    ebrian wrote: View Post
    I don't think there is anything wrong with criticizing a person's job performance without offering a better solution. We're not little kids here where "trying your best" is the only job requirement. His job is to make this team good and we haven't been good. Not by a longshot.

    He's been with us for 6 seasons and we are looking at a team that has made two playoff appearances and won 3 total playoff games. Think about this for a minute. Colangelo has dug himself in such a huge hole that for him to finish with a 0.500 record as a Raptor, we'd need to win at least 46 games for the next 6 years in a row.

    To answer the thread question -- if people are down on the Raptors this season what's their reasoning -- here it is. It's because Colangelo has yet to give us a reason to hope. We are not going to start the 46+ wins streak this season, that's for sure.

    The hope is where I disagree. There is a young roster than has by no means reached their full potential. TR and JV are high lottery picks - the holy grail of hope in basketball. There is considerable financial flexibility. Dwane Casey is in the upper third of coaches in the league, in my opinion. Last season was an incredible showing in terms of the now cliche "culture change." I see hope all around the Raptors.

    Your comments on the performance is spot on, in my opinion. The results overall are dreadful. There are numerous factors in why that is the case but at the end of the day results are what matter and they have been missing. I do hope Colangelo's team option is picked up and if by the end of next season (2013-14) the Raps are not a legit playoff team then it is time to say goodbye. For now though I do see reason for hope.... but if one is going purely on the results of the last 4 years then I can absolutely understand the lack of hope/optimism/faith/etc.

    Comment


    • #92
      ebrian wrote: View Post
      It's because Colangelo has yet to give us a reason to hope.
      Matt52 wrote: View Post
      The hope is where I disagree. There is a young roster than has by no means reached their full potential. TR and JV are high lottery picks - the holy grail of hope in basketball. There is considerable financial flexibility. Dwane Casey is in the upper third of coaches in the league, in my opinion. Last season was an incredible showing in terms of the now cliche "culture change." I see hope all around the Raptors.
      Sorry Matt, I should have clarified.. by "us" I meant those of us who are down on the Raptors and don't feel we need to justify our case by providing what should have been done instead. I could be wrong but think "we" are all in agreement. I don't think anyone is against what is happening this particular season.. it's the collective work over the past 6+ seasons that is the main cause for concern.

      Nilanka: Do you want to watch the Raptors against Washington pre-season? Oct 17 7pm. I was thinking about just giving those away.
      your pal,
      ebrian

      Comment


      • #93
        ebrian wrote: View Post
        Nilanka: Do you want to watch the Raptors against Washington pre-season? Oct 17 7pm. I was thinking about just giving those away.
        Thanks for the offer dude. But I live in the west end, and making it downtown by 7pm is kind of hectic on weeknights.

        But if you're looking to sell any "less desirable" weekend games during the season, feel free to PM me.

        Comment


        • #94
          Someone's giving away tickets?

          TORONTOOOOOO RAPTORSSSSSS

          Comment


          • #95
            ebrian wrote: View Post
            Sorry Matt, I should have clarified.. by "us" I meant those of us who are down on the Raptors and don't feel we need to justify our case by providing what should have been done instead. I could be wrong but think "we" are all in agreement. I don't think anyone is against what is happening this particular season.. it's the collective work over the past 6+ seasons that is the main cause for concern.
            I suppose what I was asking you came out wrong... you obviously aren't happy with the Raptors current state of affairs and from what I read (and some reading between the lines), it seemed like you were in the minority, being opposed to the moves made by BC this offseason.

            All I was really trying to figure out is what exactly would make you happy? I don't mean the results, as we'd obviously all like a championship caliber team, or at least a team that continuously improves (ie: fighting for playoffs, making playoffs, fighting to make 2nd round, etc...) and does so is a sustainable fashion.

            The majority of people on here admit/know/realize/accept that there have been some positives and negatives when it comes to BC's decision-making over the years, but most people have been happy with the change of direction in the post-Bosh era - ie: personnel moves, removing bad salaries, hiring Casey, etc... and see all these moves as a positive step in the right direction.

            So, aside from just having years worth of bad taste in your mouth for BC and management/ownership, I'm just struggling to understand what has you feeling so down on the future of the franchise over the next few seasons. I'm asking you out of curiosity only, not asking you to 'prove' or 'justify' your opinion, or anything like that. Without understanding your complaints/rationale, it just sounds like "BC Bashing/Hate", since it's pretty obvious that the post-Bosh BC is taking a completely different strategy than the Bosh-era BC (at least it is to me and seemingly the majority of folks on here). Maybe it's just that I'm looking only at the post-Bosh era and the future, whereas you can't get past the entirety of BC's reign... in which case we're talking about two different things and will likely never see eye-to-eye.
            Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Fri Sep 21, 2012, 05:29 PM.

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            • #96
              I've been up and down with the Raps. I was.....

              Up when Vince was here
              Down when he wanted to be traded
              Down at the result of the trade
              Up at the Babcock firing
              Up at the Colagelo hiring
              Down at the Bargnani coddling
              Up at the Sam Mitchell firing
              Down when I found out who was taking his place
              Up at the Triano "re-assigning"
              Up at the Casey hiring
              Down when the season was shortened
              Up when the season ended with more wins than 2010-2011 season
              Down at the Nash sweepstakes
              Up at the Lowry signing
              Down at the Fields signing
              UP at the prospect that Coach Casey has full training camp and a slightly better roster to work with

              Comment


              • #97
                CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                I suppose what I was asking you came out wrong... you obviously aren't happy with the Raptors current state of affairs and from what I read (and some reading between the lines), it seemed like you were in the minority, being opposed to the moves made by BC this offseason.

                All I was really trying to figure out is what exactly would make you happy? I don't mean the results, as we'd obviously all like a championship caliber team, or at least a team that continuously improves (ie: fighting for playoffs, making playoffs, fighting to make 2nd round, etc...) and does so is a sustainable fashion.

                The majority of people on here admit/know/realize/accept that there have been some positives and negatives when it comes to BC's decision-making over the years, but most people have been happy with the change of direction in the post-Bosh era - ie: personnel moves, removing bad salaries, hiring Casey, etc... and see all these moves as a positive step in the right direction.

                So, aside from just having years worth of bad taste in your mouth for BC and management/ownership, I'm just struggling to understand what has you feeling so down on the future of the franchise over the next few seasons. I'm asking you out of curiosity only, not asking you to 'prove' or 'justify' your opinion, or anything like that. Without understanding your complaints/rationale, it just sounds like "BC Bashing/Hate", since it's pretty obvious that the post-Bosh BC is taking a completely different strategy than the Bosh-era BC (at least it is to me and seemingly the majority of folks on here). Maybe it's just that I'm looking only at the post-Bosh era and the future, whereas you can't get past the entirety of BC's reign... in which case we're talking about two different things and will likely never see eye-to-eye.
                And there in lies the problem. You can't 'understand' what some people believe because you won't see 'eye to eye' with them. But when thats the case how will someone explaining their thoughts (anymore than has been) going to possible impact the debate?

                An example from this thread of what I mean. You referred to how OKC built their team as 'luck' and stated that taking that route is therefore 'not constructive'. Immediately discrediting anyone from arguing organic growth of the team around a drafted superstar as an option to follow. So how could someone who thinks that is the model to follow now explain themselves to your satisfaction? You've already blocked their preference as not feasible (lucky), therefore it shouldn't be considered (not constructive). They are left with either being content with the changes or not argue against the changes, as that would be 'whining' or 'bashing' or 'hating'.

                What you did was frame the discussion to eliminate one opinion (and probably a rather common opinion). Anyone believing something outside that mold is either not expressing their opinion fairly or expressing it without merit. So if I believed trying to do what OKC did is the preferred method for this team to follow, and trying to build another way makes me pessimistic about the Raptors future - how do I possibly argue my opinion without being considered a basher/whiner/hater?

                Sure sounds like a 'lose-lose' debate for someone to have.

                Comment


                • #98
                  That is a solid post.

                  My concern with the 'OKC model' is there are many things out of the control of management that must go right before management can have control of the situation. I think it really is a situation where all your ducks are already lined off in a row before great decisions are made.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                    I think that's a pretty fair assessment of the Raps upper echelon for the past 5-10 years, or really since they came into existence. I think a lot of BC supporters basically agree with you, but argue that BC should get the chance to continue his work, since he's really been two completely different GMS; one that inherited a roster with Bosh as the de-facto franchise player, and another that's done a true rebuild in the wake of Bosh's departure.

                    I personally thought Bosh was always overrated, in the franchise's attempt to put a new face on a young franchise that had been devestated by the departures of Mighty Mouse and Vinsanity (and his cousin), the team's only true franchise players up until that point. It wasn't only that they left, but how they left, which were such big blows to a franchise trying to grow roots for the NBA in Toronto and in Canada. Given the failure that was the Vancounver Grizzlies, there were some people in media that wrote stories about how the star players leaving Toronto was a bad omen that spelled doom for the Raptors franchise and the NBA in Canada. No wonder ownership was so desperate to unfairly heap such lofty expectations on the shoulders of a young Chris Bosh, who never should have been hailed as a franchise player. I think ownership has seen the error of its past ways, having finally given BC the green-light to do a true rebuild, as it should have been done from the moment Vinsanity left.

                    I am extremely happy with the job BC has done since the Bosh era ended, with his rebuild and complete overhaul of the roster. He has improved the team, made it younger, added talent/potential, added character, avoided stop-gap solutions and done it all while maintaining short and long term financial flexibility. Is the job done? Nope. But I'm happy with the direction and think the team is poised for a strong future over the next 2-8 years. I also think the team is in better shape, both in terms of talent and flexibility (ie: cap space and trade chips), than a lot of other teams in the league.

                    The Raptors need to show serious signs of improvement this season, at least fighting for a playoff spot, with several of the young guys stepping up and improving significantly. If that is accomplished, then I expect the Raptors to be a playoff caliber team for the next several years, which will be the expectation and measure of success that BC will be held accountable to, IMO.
                    Which players would you say have to improve, and by how much? I think if you look at league history, this isn't a good thing to rely on. "I am hoping for today's middling benchwarmer to be tomorrow's all-star" isn't going to happen. It sometimes happens in very technical sports like baseball or golf, but basketball is very much about athleticism and natural talent cannot be suppressed for very long. If the ball players you have aren't getting it done, they should be replaced, and once you have great players, the thing to do is add more.

                    If you take a look at the movers and shakers in the league, they have a lot of players in ESPN's top 30. So, for example, OKC has 3 in the top 26, Miami 3 in the top 20, including the league's best player by a mile, Boston 3 in the top 30, San Antonio 3 in the top 27, the Lakers have 4 in the top 20, including the #2 player in the league. The Raptors have Lowry at 51 and Bargs at 58. Calderon barely hangs onto top 100 status. Obviously JV and Ross are unknowns. If you're talking about them, fine. If you're talking about Davis/Fields/Derozan, forget it. That's who they are.

                    Comment


                    • I'm down on the Raptors because I am hearing rumours about JV hurting his ankle and I have learned with the Raptors to expect the worst possible outcome of any rumour.

                      Comment


                      • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                        I suppose what I was asking you came out wrong... you obviously aren't happy with the Raptors current state of affairs and from what I read (and some reading between the lines), it seemed like you were in the minority, being opposed to the moves made by BC this offseason.
                        Minority/majority means nothing to me. Majority of people still think it's the right thing to have Bargnani on the team when in reality he should have been traded a long time ago. Somehow those 13 games justifies it now? But that is beside the point..

                        I think Terrence Ross was a good choice. I'd forgotten about him after March but I had him on my short list months before as a potential guy we should look at. Lowry -- we still have to wait and see. He can play defense but can he run an offense? We were one of the worst offensive teams last year and near top 10 defensively. Now we add a defensive point guard which improves an already good defense, but can Lowry shoot? Can he pass? Or will he be more in the shoot-my-way-out, a 42% career shooter? I guess we'll find out. Even if Landry Fields is decent, he's a product of a huge error in judgment by Colangelo.. something I've gotten used to over the years. I don't understand why Acy is still on the team. Casey is the lone move that I would say was absolutely a good thing, but that was done last year.

                        CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                        All I was really trying to figure out is what exactly would make you happy? I don't mean the results, as we'd obviously all like a championship caliber team, or at least a team that continuously improves (ie: fighting for playoffs, making playoffs, fighting to make 2nd round, etc...) and does so is a sustainable fashion.

                        The majority of people on here admit/know/realize/accept that there have been some positives and negatives when it comes to BC's decision-making over the years, but most people have been happy with the change of direction in the post-Bosh era - ie: personnel moves, removing bad salaries, hiring Casey, etc... and see all these moves as a positive step in the right direction.
                        Interesting question. I need to see results. A winning record would be nice, but probably too much to ask for this season. Some people have said it'd be nice if we can stay with teams during games and keep it close. We did that a lot last year so I'd want more than that. I've seen some reasons for fans to be optimistic throughout Colangelo's 6 years only to end in disappointment, so excuse me for not having the same optimism as "most people". There are definitely some positive steps to be seen here, but we've seen positives throughout the past 6 years that turned out to be mirages.

                        CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                        So, aside from just having years worth of bad taste in your mouth for BC and management/ownership, I'm just struggling to understand what has you feeling so down on the future of the franchise over the next few seasons. I'm asking you out of curiosity only, not asking you to 'prove' or 'justify' your opinion, or anything like that. Without understanding your complaints/rationale, it just sounds like "BC Bashing/Hate", since it's pretty obvious that the post-Bosh BC is taking a completely different strategy than the Bosh-era BC (at least it is to me and seemingly the majority of folks on here). Maybe it's just that I'm looking only at the post-Bosh era and the future, whereas you can't get past the entirety of BC's reign... in which case we're talking about two different things and will likely never see eye-to-eye.
                        Aside from it?! Why would you take away the premise of my reasoning to argue your point? How about this -- aside from a few positive changes after FIVE AND A HALF years of terrible decision making, what's YOUR reason to be optimistic?

                        Seriously man, you need to learn how to argue a point without dismissing the basis of the other person's argument.

                        It's not bashing or hate -- it's doubt based on a proven track record. Bashing or hate would be unjustified negativity. Until you can show me results of something BC has done that has been a positive influence towards the team (ie a winning record), there is very little you can do to prove to me that he is doing anything right.
                        your pal,
                        ebrian

                        Comment


                        • Nilanka wrote: View Post
                          Thanks for the offer dude. But I live in the west end, and making it downtown by 7pm is kind of hectic on weeknights.

                          But if you're looking to sell any "less desirable" weekend games during the season, feel free to PM me.
                          I will keep you in mind but unfortunately most of my less desirable games are on weekdays. I targeted the weekends to try to bring my son who is still young enough to go to games for free.

                          We live up in Markham which means weeknights harder for us as well, but fortunately I work downtown so I'll still be able to see a few games this way. Does the GO bus not reach your area?
                          your pal,
                          ebrian

                          Comment


                          • ebrian wrote: View Post
                            I will keep you in mind but unfortunately most of my less desirable games are on weekdays. I targeted the weekends to try to bring my son who is still young enough to go to games for free.

                            We live up in Markham which means weeknights harder for us as well, but fortunately I work downtown so I'll still be able to see a few games this way. Does the GO bus not reach your area?
                            We do have access to GO, but it's a matter of not wanting to pay $35 (for two people) for a return trip to Union Station. $20 for parking is a much better deal, and ensures you get home at a decent hour

                            Comment


                            • Nilanka wrote: View Post
                              We do have access to GO, but it's a matter of not wanting to pay $35 (for two people) for a return trip to Union Station. $20 for parking is a much better deal, and ensures you get home at a decent hour
                              $20 for parking!?!?!? You need to do a bit more hunting.

                              https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=25+The...o+M5W+3S3&z=16

                              Comment


                              • Craiger wrote: View Post
                                And there in lies the problem. You can't 'understand' what some people believe because you won't see 'eye to eye' with them. But when thats the case how will someone explaining their thoughts (anymore than has been) going to possible impact the debate?

                                An example from this thread of what I mean. You referred to how OKC built their team as 'luck' and stated that taking that route is therefore 'not constructive'. Immediately discrediting anyone from arguing organic growth of the team around a drafted superstar as an option to follow. So how could someone who thinks that is the model to follow now explain themselves to your satisfaction? You've already blocked their preference as not feasible (lucky), therefore it shouldn't be considered (not constructive). They are left with either being content with the changes or not argue against the changes, as that would be 'whining' or 'bashing' or 'hating'.

                                What you did was frame the discussion to eliminate one opinion (and probably a rather common opinion). Anyone believing something outside that mold is either not expressing their opinion fairly or expressing it without merit. So if I believed trying to do what OKC did is the preferred method for this team to follow, and trying to build another way makes me pessimistic about the Raptors future - how do I possibly argue my opinion without being considered a basher/whiner/hater?

                                Sure sounds like a 'lose-lose' debate for someone to have.
                                I never said the OKC model was luck. I said that OKC lucked into drafting Durant (since Portland went with Oden @ #1 instead), then continued to build through the draft. The reason I don't understand the OKC comparison argument, is that I think the Raptors have actually been following that model for the past few years since Bosh left, which is building through the draft and avoiding any bad contracts. For me, the only difference between the OKC model and the post-Bosh TOR model is that Toronto hasn't been lucky enough to have a superstar caliber player like Durant fall into their laps. I think Toronto has done a good job of drafting the past 4 years (DeRozan, Davis, Valanciunas and Ross), which seems to be totally in-line with a build-through-the-draft model, be it the OKC model or any other.

                                That's why I don't completely understand your argument, because I happen to think that the Raptors are doing exactly what you want them to do, just not with the luck (ie: no superstar) or success (yet).

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