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  • bargnani is by no means a prototypical center and couldnt rebound a beachball so i think he is

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    • bargs is not a prototypical center by any means and couldnt rebound a beachball a one-dimensional player thats it

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      • Macc wrote: View Post
        Not true to an extent. People are going to see it as a team stat and will still pin things on is below average rebounding numbers when things go wrong. Sure it may go: when Bargnani is on the floor there are less second chance points. But when the Raptors are ranked 28th or so in the league in rebounding it will go: Bargnani should be averaging way more rebounds for a 7'. Which stat do you think people are more likely to realize?
        The average basketball fan still looks primarily at the scoring. Rebounding is nice for the average fan but they want scorers on their team. I would venture to guess that the average basketball fan might be familiar with the basic +/- now that it is the box score but as far as other advanced metrics goes forget it.

        People understand scoring. Understanding advanced basketball metrics is another story altogether. When it comes to numbers what people don't understand in sports they often poo poo as meaningless primarily because they don't understand it.

        They understand that big men should rebound and guards should get assists but again those are simple box score stats.

        I would love to see the NBA start to include "second chance points" in their team stats including the net differential. They always talk about this during games.

        I have never done a study but I bet that there is a strong correlation between team differential on "second chance points" over a season and its team winning percentage.

        In the end rebounding numbers aren't as telling because even if the other team gets a lot of offensive rebounds unless they convert them into second chance points it doesn't mean very much. Of course the more second chance opportunities that you have the greater the chance of getting more second chance points, but in the end it seems to me that it is the differential in second chance points between teams that is more important than just wining the rebounding count.

        Just my opinion.
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        “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
        Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

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        • nubreed000: Thanks for pointing out the obvious and not getting sarcasm...Considering he wasn't the number one option or maybe even number two with Hedouche around, last season he still managed almost 18 points per...Does that make it even more obvious to you?

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          • RaptorRoo wrote: View Post
            nubreed000: Thanks for pointing out the obvious and not getting sarcasm...Considering he wasn't the number one option or maybe even number two with Hedouche around, last season he still managed almost 18 points per...Does that make it even more obvious to you?
            Too many, well you can't have too many actually, scorers on the Raptors team, a number of which can shoot better than Bargnani and get to the foul line better than him.

            Barbosa and Kleiza are far superior scorers to Wright and Turk. Davis will be a far superior scorer to Reggie/Rasho
            DeRozan and Weems offense will both be significantly improved in 10-11.
            Calderon if still around and Jack will take more shots with Bosh gone.
            Even the "Garbage Man" will get a lot more touches take a lot more shots per game in 10-11 then he took last year. They will even start running plays for him in 10-11. You can put that one in the bank 4sure.

            People who think that the Raptors game plan on offense is to replace Bosh with Bargnani are in my opinion only kidding themselves and you don't need statistics to come to that conclusion.

            Of course the proof will be in the pudding as they say
            Last edited by Buddahfan; Sun Aug 15, 2010, 06:56 PM.
            Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

            Memories some so sweet, indeed

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            “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
            Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

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            • Good point Frankthetank, if you check the history of big men most didn't become great scorers or rebounders until after 5 years in the league which would put them in their late twenty's...Bargnani is still developing his body and skill set and this past summer playing with the Italian nationals will definitely help that progression...

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              • Buddahfan: I think it's safe to say that anyone with half a brain doesn't expect Bargnani to do Bosh numbers this season, but this season won't hinge on one player...This is a new era for the Raps with a new system and philosophy...It's also safe to say that regardless of your abbreviated point of measure Bargs will not go down as the worst rebounding 7 footer. In fact, He will finish his career at a very respectable level...

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                • RaptorRoo wrote: View Post
                  Buddahfan: I think it's safe to say that anyone with half a brain doesn't expect Bargnani to do Bosh numbers this season, but this season won't hinge on one player...This is a new era for the Raps with a new system and philosophy...It's also safe to say that regardless of your abbreviated point of measure Bargs will not go down as the worst rebounding 7 footer. In fact, He will finish his career at a very respectable level...
                  A number of posters here and even some bloggers and LSSM types are expecting Bargnani to have a major improvement in his scoring this coming season. You can refer to them however you want.

                  We disagree on Bargnani's potential as a good rebounder. While he eventually will probably not be the worst 7' rebounder in NBA history for players that play over 10,000 career minutes I don't think that over the next 15 years we will see many worse then him at the 7' level. Just my opinion.
                  Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

                  Memories some so sweet, indeed

                  Larger Photo of the avatar



                  “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
                  Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

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                  • He WILL have a major improvement in scoring simply because his skill set is improving. However that doesn't mean Bosh levels this season, but hopefully in the next 2-3 years...

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                    • Okay, it's been a while since I've had the time to post here, but this subject is one that will bring me back for a moment.

                      Okay, Bargnani is a very bad rebounder. No one can realistically argue against that. And after 4 years in the league, it's pretty evident that he is what he is. Players who have played the number of minutes Bargnani has in the four years he's played, and hasn't had any setbacks such as injury, don't make much of an improvement. All these excuses about him only being 24 or that big men develop late, or that someone like Andrew Bogut made a big jump after four years don't make any sense when you look at the fact that any player who has played significant minutes over his first four years and has not missed significant time to injury, don't generally make big improvements.

                      In four years, Bargnani's rebounds per 36 minutes have gone from 5.6 rpg to 6.3 rpg. At that rate, he might hit double digits when he's 40.

                      And those who believe that his offense makes up for his weak rebounding need to learn a lot more about the game of basketball, quite frankly. First of all, his offense is simply not that good. He's a good scorer, but he's not a great scorer and probably never will be. And unless Bargnani is scoring 30 ppg, and in an efficient manner, his lack of rebounding is unforgivable. I've made this argument ad nauseum, and no where better than here...
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                      • He isn't a basketball player that rebounds, we just have to get used to that.
                        Raptors fan for life....sadly.

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                        • Tim W all you need to do is go look at Shaq, garnett, J. oneal, gasol, all they're stats peak from 25-29. Its very simple go look at their stats. Why argue when you can just look it up. No one is mixing andrea for moses malone but Andrea will average 10 rebounds per 36 minutes at least ones in his career. If he does I hope that tim and buddahmolester will apologize to Andrea for judging him before he's turned 25. Maybe we should judge tim and buddah's life by how successful they were as teenagers. Oh they're teenagers

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                          • Frankthetank wrote: View Post
                            Tim W all you need to do is go look at Shaq, garnett, J. oneal, gasol, all they're stats peak from 25-29. Its very simple go look at their stats. Why argue when you can just look it up. No one is mixing andrea for moses malone but Andrea will average 10 rebounds per 36 minutes at least ones in his career. If he does I hope that tim and buddahmolester will apologize to Andrea for judging him before he's turned 25. Maybe we should judge tim and buddah's life by how successful they were as teenagers. Oh they're teenagers
                            yes, that's true, but you have to at least acknowledge that their respective 'peaks' were not that far removed from what they had each done earlier in their careers. it's not as though shaq was averaging 7 boards/game for his first 4 years & then blew up to 13 in season 5; they each merely improved (i.e. 'peaked') a modest amount over what they had previously accomplished. for bargs to get into the realm of respectability in terms of rebounding, he'd have to have a near-50% improvement in his raw #'s...and even that wouldn't put him into per-36 double-digits.
                            TRUE LOVE - Sometimes you know it the instant you see it across the bar.

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                            • Frankthetank wrote: View Post
                              Tim W all you need to do is go look at Shaq, garnett, J. oneal, gasol, all they're stats peak from 25-29. Its very simple go look at their stats. Why argue when you can just look it up. No one is mixing andrea for moses malone but Andrea will average 10 rebounds per 36 minutes at least ones in his career. If he does I hope that tim and buddahmolester will apologize to Andrea for judging him before he's turned 25. Maybe we should judge tim and buddah's life by how successful they were as teenagers. Oh they're teenagers
                              I disproved that on my other Bargnani thread. Most of them reached their peaks within their first five years.

                              I am not a NBA basketball player
                              Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

                              Memories some so sweet, indeed

                              Larger Photo of the avatar



                              “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
                              Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

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                              • Bargnani - Let me gaze into my Crystal Ball

                                .
                                This topic has been discussed ad nauseam. For all you "intuitive" Kreskins out there - give it a break.
                                .

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