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  • Matt52 wrote: View Post
    So we are on the same page.

    I nor anyone else proposing tanking with the intention of getting better long term has ever suggested trading anyone for scraps and relying on Toronto's own draft pick as the only means of acquiring talent.
    Ok looks like we agree then.

    All I was saying is re-signing Gay/Lowry and trying to cash in on 2015 cap flexibility is a better alternative to getting fleeced by other teams in trades for them and trying to tank.

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    • Xixak wrote: View Post
      .
      Discussion is much easier if you refrain from putting bold comments in the quotes.

      But you're going in circles and it is now boring.

      For the record just a couple of months ago I was advocating your opinion of staying the course on these very forums. After much more consideration, I disagreed with my original thoughts.

      Comment


      • Matt52 wrote: View Post
        Discussion is much easier if you refrain from putting bold comments in the quotes.

        But you're going in circles and it is now boring.

        For the record just a couple of months ago I was advocating your opinion of staying the course on these very forums. After much more consideration, I disagreed with my original thoughts.
        My opinion is not to "stay the course". I just thinking "staying the course" is better than trading away guys JUST to tank and selling low. Then feeling like shit when the draft rolls around and we don't get a star.

        I didn't post here much before but I remember how pissed everyone was in 2011 on RealGM when we fell from 3rd to 5th in the draft.

        Comment


        • Xixak wrote: View Post
          I am 100% in favor if this. If you can get back that kind of value for Gay/Lowry then ship them out.

          I just don't like the idea of trading them for the sake of a tank, getting out-tanked by crappier teams, not getting a star and ending up on the same 9th-12th seed treadmill for the next 5 years that we've always been on.
          I'll ask the question I dreaded asking before.... WHAT?????

          So you are ok with what would be a tank job, aslong as its not throwing Gay and Lowry away for nothing - something no one was arguing in the first place?




          No wait never mind, I absolutely don't want to know.

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          • Xixak wrote: View Post
            Ok looks like we agree then.

            All I was saying is re-signing Gay/Lowry and trying to cash in on 2015 cap flexibility is a better alternative to getting fleeced by other teams in trades for them and trying to tank.
            I don't think anybody disagrees with this: the Stuckey/Villaneuva proposal was met with widespread derision here and by pretty much every Raptors fan period because it was so awful. If Detroit had made a more serious offer for Rudy (say one of Stuckey or Villaneuva plus Brandon Knight and future first-round draft considerations) maybe that would be worth looking at, but they didn't.

            None of us advocating for rebuild think we should throw away our talented young players for scraps, because that's silly. We trade them for, yes, some garbage, but also prospects and picks. The Luis Scola trade is a great example: Phoenix traded Scola and got back a garbage contract (Green) plus a prospect (Plumlee) and a first-round pick. That's a great rebuild trade: Green's cap hit hardly hurts them and they get a young player with upside and a first-rounder. And Rudy and Kyle should net more than Scola, frankly.

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            • magoon wrote: View Post
              I don't think anybody disagrees with this: the Stuckey/Villaneuva proposal was met with widespread derision here and by pretty much every Raptors fan period because it was so awful. If Detroit had made a more serious offer for Rudy (say one of Stuckey or Villaneuva plus Brandon Knight and future first-round draft considerations) maybe that would be worth looking at, but they didn't.

              None of us advocating for rebuild think we should throw away our talented young players for scraps, because that's silly. We trade them for, yes, some garbage, but also prospects and picks. The Luis Scola trade is a great example: Phoenix traded Scola and got back a garbage contract (Green) plus a prospect (Plumlee) and a first-round pick. That's a great rebuild trade: Green's cap hit hardly hurts them and they get a young player with upside and a first-rounder. And Rudy and Kyle should net more than Scola, frankly.
              This is the only problem, moreso for Gay than Lowry. His deal makes it difficult to trade him to any legitimate contenders because they don't have the necessary contracts to send back in exchange. In Lowry's case the issue is that not many teams need a PG, and the ones that do aren't trying to contend.

              This is the fundamental problem with the tanking plan. It looks like we all agree on not trading guys away for crap value... but where are we going to get good value from?

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              • I may have missed it if anyone mentioned it...that MU also has the option of duplicating his strategy with Afflalo & Nene when he signed them to contracts considered team friendly and then traded them. Considering the expiring nature of Gay & Lowry contracts this would be more attractive to potential trade partners. But a fine line it is reading (and convincing the player) market conditions a year ahead.

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                • Bendit wrote: View Post
                  I may have missed it if anyone mentioned it...that MU also has the option of duplicating his strategy with Afflalo & Nene when he signed them to contracts considered team friendly and then traded them. Considering the expiring nature of Gay & Lowry contracts this would be more attractive to potential trade partners. But a fine line it is reading (and convincing the player) market conditions a year ahead.
                  This is another option that I failed to mention.

                  A 18M Rudy Gay coming off an inefficient season with an opt-out clause isn't much of a valuable asset. An efficient 20-7 Rudy Gay locked up for his prime for 13-15M a season on the other hand could be. Same idea for Lowry. Which is why it might be smarter to hang onto them unless a team makes a really enticing offer.

                  Comment


                  • Xixak wrote: View Post
                    This is the only problem, moreso for Gay than Lowry. His deal makes it difficult to trade him to any legitimate contenders because they don't have the necessary contracts to send back in exchange. In Lowry's case the issue is that not many teams need a PG, and the ones that do aren't trying to contend.
                    With respect to Rudy, here are some options that work (I am not going to include picks here, but assume that we would want them in any such trade):

                    CLEVELAND (under the cap even post-Bynum): Alonzo Gee, Tristan Thompson, CJ Miles
                    CHARLOTTE: Ben Gordon (you can add any single prospect as well but this trade works with Gordon for Rudy straight up, math-wise)
                    DALLAS: Shawn Marion, Vince Carter, Jae Crowder
                    LAKERS: Steve Nash + pieces from the Lakers' low end

                    The Lakers, incidentally, are the obvious targets for a Lowry trade as well, followed by the Bucks, but Lowry we might want to hold off on trading early because I expect his value will increase across the season - especially if a PG on a trying-to-make-playoffs team gets injured. Say Ricky Rubio goes down - Minnesota will start looking. Etc.

                    Comment


                    • TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
                      From my perspective, a guy who is no capologist, statistician or number cruncher, i look at this raptors roster on the surface and see what is pretty much obvious as to why this team underperformed last season.

                      lowry was not a 100% in training camp due to injury the previous season. injuries mid season
                      6 new players (?)
                      fields injured
                      bargnani injured
                      valanciunas injury beginning to mid season
                      pg controversy
                      Gay trade mid-season
                      gay vison problems
                      roster revisions game to game basis
                      strategy conflict between GM and coach (?)

                      why are we basing a future subpar peformance of this team on a previous season that was pretty much a wash? and to think, they were only 4 games away from a playoff spot? without these issues, plus a much improved Valanciunas, dont you think this team is capable of doing more? dont know about you guys but im excited to see what this team can do.
                      It's not just based on last year's Raptors. It's based on historical performance.

                      - "Lowry was not 100% in camp"... He's always been injry-plagued. This is a concern. He's also never shown elite PG capability on a consistent basis, or done so with the calibre of team that can advance far in the playoffs. Even when healthy as a Raptor, and with Gay on board, the team was not a barn-burner.
                      - "6 new players"... Big deal. Other teams adjust. If you bring in the right players, "6 new players" is actually a good thing.
                      - "Bargnani injured"... Was this a curse, or a blessing? Not sure this backs up your argument in any way.
                      - "Val injury"... Again, not sure a rookie C is the guy you should be mentioning in terms of keeping your team from contending.
                      - "PG controversy"... Was made possible by Lowry's under-performance. And has been an issue everywhere he has played (not that he's a bad apple, just that he has never significantly out-performed his backup).
                      - "Gay trade"... That made the team better initially, then regressed again. This was a "positive" move for the team, I thought?
                      - "Gay vision problems"... Overblown. And a bad sign, in that he refused to get it fixed for 7 years because he doesn't like glasses or contacts. In other words, "I'd rather play blind than put my own finger in my eye." That's the guy you want leading your team?
                      - "Roster revisions game to game"... Because our roster wasn't very good. And it will be the same roster, essentially, this year.
                      - "Strategy conflict"... Might have had an effect on the defense, but not the offense. The team Colangelo built incl. Gay trade) was to facilitate run-and-gun, which was essentially the style of play that led them to a sub .500 record after the trade. It wasn't a "strategy" issue, it was always, and still is, a "personnel" issue.

                      I like your optimism, but everything you present as reasons for the under-performance last year will still be factors this year.
                      Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

                      Comment


                      • magoon wrote: View Post
                        With respect to Rudy, here are some options that work (I am not going to include picks here, but assume that we would want them in any such trade):

                        CLEVELAND (under the cap even post-Bynum): Alonzo Gee, Tristan Thompson, CJ Miles
                        CHARLOTTE: Ben Gordon (you can add any single prospect as well but this trade works with Gordon for Rudy straight up, math-wise)
                        DALLAS: Shawn Marion, Vince Carter, Jae Crowder
                        LAKERS: Steve Nash + pieces from the Lakers' low end

                        The Lakers, incidentally, are the obvious targets for a Lowry trade as well, followed by the Bucks, but Lowry we might want to hold off on trading early because I expect his value will increase across the season - especially if a PG on a trying-to-make-playoffs team gets injured. Say Ricky Rubio goes down - Minnesota will start looking. Etc.
                        Lakers look to be the only real option here.

                        Cavs/Charlotte don't need Lowry and also have young SFs to develop in Karasev (possibly Bennett if they convert but I doubt) and MKG.

                        Dallas doesn't have their pick, OKC does.

                        I think the Lakers may have interest in both players. The only problem is we'd need to take back Gasol and Nash which would kind of defeat the purpose of the move (to get a higher pick), so maybe we could involve a 3rd team to take Gasol.

                        If the Rockets can't properly address their PF situation, something like this:

                        http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=mvzfnk7

                        With us getting a 2014 1st from both LA and HOU could work.

                        Lakers:
                        Lowry
                        Kobe
                        Gay
                        Hill
                        Kaman

                        Raptors:
                        Buycks
                        DeRozan
                        Novak
                        Amir
                        Valanciunas

                        Rockets:
                        Beverley
                        Harden
                        Parsons
                        Pau
                        Dwight

                        Comment


                        • Xixak wrote: View Post
                          This is another option that I failed to mention.

                          A 18M Rudy Gay coming off an inefficient season with an opt-out clause isn't much of a valuable asset. An efficient 20-7 Rudy Gay locked up for his prime for 13-15M a season on the other hand could be. Same idea for Lowry. Which is why it might be smarter to hang onto them unless a team makes a really enticing offer.
                          But, a 27-year-old Rudy Gay whose contract is large and expiring next season might also be more valuable than a 28-year-old, re-signed Rudy Gay earning $45M over the next 3 years.

                          Gay is currently most valuable to a contending team looking for a 3 who will fit their plans, or a rebuilding team who are content paying him for one more year in exchange for the cap space heading into 2015-16. Lowry is cheap, and also valuable to any team looking for a starting PG this year. Probably more attractive to teams looking for a placeholder starter (don't mind losing him to FA at the end of the season) than teams looking to contend, but still attractive at his price.
                          Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

                          Comment


                          • Xixak wrote: View Post
                            This is another option that I failed to mention.

                            A 18M Rudy Gay coming off an inefficient season with an opt-out clause isn't much of a valuable asset. An efficient 20-7 Rudy Gay locked up for his prime for 13-15M a season on the other hand could be. Same idea for Lowry. Which is why it might be smarter to hang onto them unless a team makes a really enticing offer.
                            So what's the plan in the meantime? I'm sure the answer will be "make the playoffs" but what if that doesn't happen? All the season previews I've read have the Raptors on the outside looking in again. We've now spent the year waiting for trade offers that never came and cost the team a top pick in the loaded 2014 draft in the process. No playoffs. No top pick. Just tire spinning.

                            And then what? Do you re-sign the two guys who couldn't take us to the playoffs next summer to "fair" contracts and cross your fingers that someone will give us a really good package for them in 2014-15? What if the perfect offers never come and you end up either a)stuck with them for 3-4 years, squarely in the middle of the treadmill mode or b) cave and take basically the same less than ideal offers that are on the table now after wasting close to two years. Do you just let them walk in free agency and receive absolutely 0 for them?

                            I don't understand how people are so dead set against a season of "intentional losing" and yet they're satisfied with spending a season floating around in no man's land.
                            Last edited by Fully; Thu Aug 8, 2013, 12:59 PM.

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                            • Xixak wrote: View Post
                              This is the only problem, moreso for Gay than Lowry. His deal makes it difficult to trade him to any legitimate contenders because they don't have the necessary contracts to send back in exchange. In Lowry's case the issue is that not many teams need a PG, and the ones that do aren't trying to contend.

                              This is the fundamental problem with the tanking plan. It looks like we all agree on not trading guys away for crap value... but where are we going to get good value from?
                              I don't think you are looking at legit contenders. Legit contenders rarely have established rookie contract players - and if they do have rookie contract players they are looking to keep them because in all likelihood they have expensive star player as they are contenders.

                              I think the teams you need to look at are the teams on the verge of making the playoffs. Cleveland, Detroit, Charlotte come immediately to mind.

                              It will be interesting the NBA landscape come the beginning of December. It will be at this point teams decide to fold, hold, or go all in. I am praying Charlotte goes all in and Gay+Lowry are in their sights.

                              Comment


                              • Charlotte is the team I would target. There's been plenty of reports this summer that they're looking to get out of the basement and the Al Jeff signing backs that up. They have young assets that should interest Ujiri in return. They have potentially three first round picks this summer - Portland's, Detroit's and their own. They have a big expiring contract in Ben Gordon. Give them Lowry/Gay for something like MKG or Walker/Gordon/Detroit & Portland's first rounders. The friends Lowry and Gay get to stay together and the Raptors assume the Bobcats spot in the race to the bottom while picking up some nice assets in the process.
                                Last edited by Fully; Thu Aug 8, 2013, 01:01 PM.

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