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Everything Tanking ;) Raptor still have a long shot at 3rd worst record...

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  • #31
    stretch wrote: View Post
    The current draft lottery system needs to be fixed in a big way. All this tanking is ultimately bad for business.

    My fix (until I think of something better): All teams get one ball. The first 5 balls that come up are the first 5 picks and then picks 6 onward are determined by worst records. Every team plays to get into the playoffs, losing is not necessarily rewarded, tanking becomes a non issue.
    They put a lot of thought in to the current system and I think it is the best system in an imperfect league.
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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    • #32
      A crazy idea here but one that might work.. let the draft picks be 'free agents'. Teams that are out of the playoffs get first crack at these free agents. There should be a max amount and time that can be offered of course, but let the draft pick choose where he wants to go.

      A team can only 'draft' one player per year (unless they got the rights from another team). That salary is then counted towards the cap - so some teams that are over the cap or close to it may not want to spend money on a new 'star' and/or trade their rights to some other team.

      Once the 14th team selects his guy.. then teams 15-30 go through 'free agency' for their picks.

      This takes away the power of a 'rookie salary' and emphasizes management more than luck of the draw. If you have a crappy GM/owner (*cough* Sterling *cough*).. you will continue to get cheap prospects that don't amount to much. A team like Toronto may struggle because a prospect may not want to play for them.. however they may do well in international scouting instead and get guys like JV without issue. But in this specific case as well Toronto would be competing with the bottom feeders in the league in draft 'free agency' instead of the super powers like LA, Miami, and Chicago.. and teams like NY may not be able to convince top prospects to play for them since they'd be near the cap anyways.

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      • #33
        Tanking is a lot about trading away useful assets, withholding players from playing that are coming off injury for a few more games and playing young bench players ahead of more dependable veterans.

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        • #34
          malefax wrote: View Post
          Here's a nice solution

          Rank the teams that are in the lottery (failed to make the playoffs) 1-14, with one being the worst record, etc.

          Take a ball for each team ranked 7-14. Draw one of those: the team drawn gets the 14th pick. Add the ball for team 6, draw for the 13th pick. Add the ball for team 5, draw for the 12th pick, etc. For picks 8-1, you just keep drawing from the remaining balls.

          This way, there's a bit of an advantage of having a worse record, but any team can win the lottery, and record doesn't make such a big difference in the rankings.
          This idea is interesting to me.

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          • #35
            Honestly, I couldn't care less about tanking.

            It's kind of getting on my nerves reading post-game articles make tongue-in-cheek references to "Tank Nation" or "Tank Hopes" and how this win or that win cost us damn lottery balls.

            Watching the Raptors win always lifts my spirit up so much, be it the last game of a hopeless season or against the Bobcats. I don't care. I seriously don't give a damn about tanking for Anthony Davis sweepstakes. Although him or MKG would give Raps some serious upgrade next season, I would rather see Raptors put in 100% and win as many games as possible even if they end up with the 10th pick just for the sake of confidence in your existing roster and the goddamn soul of the game. I really, really hate teams coming in with a losing mindset... the game gets decided even before the tip.

            Talking about the draft, remember what happened last year? we were pegged at #3 and dropped to #5. Thankfully, we ended up with the guy we wanted, but lottery balls fluctuate a bit too much to rely upon and commit to losing. It anyways looks like a crapshoot for the Raps if they are out of top-2 (and no, Brad Beal or Thomas Robinson is not in the same league as Davis or MKG).
            I really don't think Casey is the type of guy who'd tolerate his players losing focus, but I wouldn't be surprised if more than a couple of coaches have already mailed it in for the rest of the season. I just don't want the Raptors to do that.

            I feel teams look at Thunder and think maybe if they got a Durant-calibre player, they'll start contending. But they don't realize that in the process they lose the interest and respect of the fans for not playing the game the right way.

            Can anyone back me up on this or the tank train is running full speed?

            Comment


            • #36
              I think that if a team deliberately tanks via setting poor standards and image, they will also set a very bad precedent for their team. So if they do this, they bring that awesome drafted player into a horrible system, which would presumably persist. If that's the case, then any success the team could have is subdued by the bad mentality set by tanking. Call it the 'tanking precedent.'

              On the other hand, I believe that Casey's Raptors are setting good precedents, by pounding the rock with a commitment to defence and toughness. In reality, I don't believe that they lose deliberately, in the sights of a higher draft pick.

              Aside from whether or not one likes the notion of tanking - Is it good, or is it bad? I believe it's unhealthy for a team, bottom line.

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              • #37
                I can't speak for all of "tank nation", but I don't want the Raps team to tank, as in purposefully lose; I want the Raptors to play hard and play at their true talent level, which should result in lots of hard-fought losses. This season is lost, as the Raptors are all but mathematically eliminated from the playoffs. Therefore, attention turns to individual player development, evaluation and then next season.

                With the NBA championship and even just a playoff performance out of reach this season, I see no rational reason why you would NOT focus on next season and beyond, doing everything you can to put the best team possible on the court to compete next season for what is long since out of reach this season. If one of the most effective ways of accomplishing that is ensuring the best possible lottery odds for the draft, then so be it, that is just reality of the NBA.

                Who's to argue that giving secondary guys more playing time and trying different 5-man lineups isn't a fair player/team assessment, which is part of every GM/coach's responsibility. If that simultaneously helps both player evaluation/development and improving lottery odds, so be it. This season is lost and wins are truly meaningless.
                Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Mar 29, 2012, 12:30 AM.

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                • #38
                  Here's a link to the players recently selected at the 10th spot in the NBA draft:

                  http://www.mynbadraft.com/nba-draft-...verall/100509/

                  There are no Durants there. It's just one slot, but I'm sure you get the point.

                  I get that people prefer wins in the present, but that comes at a cost. If you'd prefer to be the Bucks, be a scrappy team that squeaks into the playoffs here and there but never makes it past the second round, then that's your thing. But it's not mine. I want to watch a team playing for a deep playoff run, with a chance to win the championship. Difference of opinion. I'm Willing to wait for that.

                  Someday they might fix the draft system but until then high lottery picks are the best bet for turning this franchise around. A first or second pick in this year's draft is a lot different than a 5th or lower. I don't want them to stop trying either, but I want them to lose. Because when I look at the roster as constructed, I see a lot of players that were acquired based on potential and who are all struggling to consistently live up to it. Consistency is the hardest thing to master in the NBA, and being consistently elite is nearly impossible. And that's usually the difference between a first or second overall and a 5th: guys like MKG and Davis who bring huge positives every time they step on the floor, and guys like Barnes and Jones, who have the potential to but are still trying to figure out how.

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                  • #39
                    playmak3r5 wrote: View Post
                    It's kind of getting on my nerves reading post-game articles make tongue-in-cheek references to "Tank Nation" or "Tank Hopes" and how this win or that win cost us damn lottery balls.

                    Watching the Raptors win always lifts my spirit up so much, be it the last game of a hopeless season or against the Bobcats. I don't care. I seriously don't give a damn about tanking for Anthony Davis sweepstakes. Although him or MKG would give Raps some serious upgrade next season, I would rather see Raptors put in 100% and win as many games as possible even if they end up with the 10th pick just for the sake of confidence in your existing roster and the goddamn soul of the game. I really, really hate teams coming in with a losing mindset... the game gets decided even before the tip.

                    Talking about the draft, remember what happened last year? we were pegged at #3 and dropped to #5. Thankfully, we ended up with the guy we wanted, but lottery balls fluctuate a bit too much to rely upon and commit to losing. It anyways looks like a crapshoot for the Raps if they are out of top-2 (and no, Brad Beal or Thomas Robinson is not in the same league as Davis or MKG).
                    I really don't think Casey is the type of guy who'd tolerate his players losing focus, but I wouldn't be surprised if more than a couple of coaches have already mailed it in for the rest of the season. I just don't want the Raptors to do that.

                    I feel teams look at Thunder and think maybe if they got a Durant-calibre player, they'll start contending. But they don't realize that in the process they lose the interest and respect of the fans for not playing the game the right way.

                    Can anyone back me up on this or the tank train is running full speed?
                    I Agree with you 100%. Win or lose, feel good about putting in a great effort. That game last weekend against the Bulls was one of the very best games I have ever seen the raps play and I wish every game was like that. I didn't mind them losing at all, even though it was a heart breaker, they still took the best team in the NBA to their first overtime this year and they had to win it with .00001 seconds left on the clock. When Forbes missed those free throw I knew we were done.

                    Great point my friend. Keep spreading your word and "JUST SAY NO TO TANKING!"

                    P.S. We will beat the Heat on Friday 90 - 87.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Honestly, I would rather have them keep it a close game till late in the 4th then lose. At a stage where the roster isn't set and we're lacking a superstar, i'll take the chances losing despite it being the lottery being a complete gamble especially since we will pretty much never be able to land a superstar free agent. The way I see it is that we either have to be really bad or really good. Never inbetween unless it is a 1-3 season turnaround from being bad to great which is to be expected.

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                      • #41
                        It's not the players who "tank", it's management. When we sign guys like Butler, Magloire and Carter, that means we're tanking. But the players are expected to give 100% as always.

                        Whether you agree with tanking or not, there's no denying the fact that the more losses you have, the better your chances of improving your team long-term. That's not my opinion, that's fact.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Lark Benson wrote: View Post
                          Here's a link to the players recently selected at the 10th spot in the NBA draft:

                          http://www.mynbadraft.com/nba-draft-...verall/100509/

                          There are no Durants there. It's just one slot, but I'm sure you get the point.

                          I get that people prefer wins in the present, but that comes at a cost. If you'd prefer to be the Bucks, be a scrappy team that squeaks into the playoffs here and there but never makes it past the second round, then that's your thing. But it's not mine. I want to watch a team playing for a deep playoff run, with a chance to win the championship. Difference of opinion. I'm Willing to wait for that.

                          Someday they might fix the draft system but until then high lottery picks are the best bet for turning this franchise around. A first or second pick in this year's draft is a lot different than a 5th or lower. I don't want them to stop trying either, but I want them to lose. Because when I look at the roster as constructed, I see a lot of players that were acquired based on potential and who are all struggling to consistently live up to it. Consistency is the hardest thing to master in the NBA, and being consistently elite is nearly impossible. And that's usually the difference between a first or second overall and a 5th: guys like MKG and Davis who bring huge positives every time they step on the floor, and guys like Barnes and Jones, who have the potential to but are still trying to figure out how.
                          I counted five franchise altering players in the last 13 year and one HOF...what's so bad about the tenth pick?

                          HOF - Paul Pierce Franchise Altering - Joe Johnson - Jason Terry - Caron Butler - Andrew Bynum - Brandon Jennings

                          Solid Role Players - Spencer Hawes - Paul George - Brooke Lopez...
                          For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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                          • #43
                            The irony is that the team does not have the tank mentality at all.....and neither does it's coach. Anyone who thinks that BC did not select the filler for this team (1 yr contracts) with the view to "sabotage" the season is being naive or not paying attention to the available f/as who were available when players like Carter and Butler etc were signed. This team in my view has achieved it's current record honestly so, in practical terms does it really matter that a "tank nation" exists who in reality will outlive many of the players on this team (as far as being on the team or in the league). This existential-like nation as well will NOT exist next year.
                            Last edited by Bendit; Thu Mar 29, 2012, 11:44 AM.

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                            • #44
                              I don't believe in tanking and judging by how hard the team plays night in and night out I don't think they are however a top 4 pick would be REALLY nice.
                              @sweatpantsjer

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                              • #45
                                As a few others stated, the players certainly are not tanking. And why would they? If they intentionally lose a game, or try to tank the rest of the season then they won't have a job next year. I do believe as well that near the end of a season, guys like gary forbes will step up for this reason, and we will steal some games from better opponents, such as last night because our guys are desperate to show they belong.

                                You see this with the Leafs every year, but this year, struggle at the start, win near the end as guys are playing harder to keep a spot on the roster, and playoff teams looking forward.

                                That being said, I don't care where we draft, just as long as we make the right choice at whichever spot, and build these players up for next year.

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