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Enough with the Tanking Rationale... This is Not a Video Game

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  • #31
    Fully wrote: View Post
    So where exactly are the draft picks that refused to come to Toronto?
    +1 I was thinking the same thing when I was reading the post.

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    • #32
      Point Guard: BJ Armstrong (1995)
      Armstrong was selected from the Chicago Bulls with the first overall pick in the 1995 Expansion Draft.

      Is there a higher number than one?
      If that is the only thing your arguing i'll consider that progress.
      I'll make my " " more bigger next time as well.

      Comment


      • #33
        RepRaptorsintheUSA wrote: View Post
        Point Guard: BJ Armstrong (1995)
        Armstrong was selected from the Chicago Bulls with the first overall pick in the 1995 Expansion Draft.

        Is there a higher number than one?
        If that is the only thing your arguing i'll consider that progress.
        I'll make my " " more bigger next time as well.
        When you refer to a "draft pick" with respect to any professional sport, it's a given that you're talking about the league-wide annual draft for players not already in the league, and not an expansion draft.
        "Stop eating your sushi."
        "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
        "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
        - Jack Armstrong

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        • #34
          Sprechen wrote: View Post
          MJ has done a hell of a lot of losing since becoming an owner, where's his OKC facsimile?
          They don't have one, because they were unlucky. That's the risk with tanking. It's a gamble. But if you win, then you've made the first step down the only path to winning a championship.
          "Stop eating your sushi."
          "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
          "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
          - Jack Armstrong

          Comment


          • #35
            @Lark Benson - Don't accuse others of that which you clearly demonstrate. You say I have no grasp of history. Lakers repeatedly buy championships, as do the Celtics. The Heat bought one last year. I have an MA in history, don't try to give me a history lesson buddy. Just shows how out of your depth you are. Someone provide me detailed evidence of a team tanking, getting an elite talent, and keeping them long enough to build a championship team around them. Go ahead, Lark Benson's of the world, I dare you to substantiate your drivel.

            @ebrian - go crack open a math text book, study it for a few days and then tell me again how Amir is getting $9 mill a year. Even if he makes all of the bonuses in the deal it's still only $34 mill over 5 years which is less than $7mill per. For someone to say Amir did "nothing" in his first two years of the deal clearly didn't watch any of those games. He was the only guy who gave 100% on every possession, regardless of the circumstances. The foul trouble limited his playing time but when he was in he was very effective.

            @JimiCliff - I respect that that may be your opinion but I'm not convinced. Where is your evidence?

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            • #36
              Sprechen wrote: View Post

              @JimiCliff - I respect that that may be your opinion but I'm not convinced. Where is your evidence?
              Every championship team in my lifetime except for the Wallace/Wallace Pistons* featured a future HOF player that they themselves drafted (and just to get this out of the way, the Hornets drafted Kobe on the Lakers' behalf, so I'm calling that a Lakers pick, even though technically he was drafted by the Hornets).

              Wade (drafted 5th) with Miami.

              Dirk (9th) with the Mavs.

              Kobe (13th) with the Lakers.

              Pierce (10th) with the Celtics.

              Duncan (1st) with the Spurs.

              MJ (3rd) with the Bulls.

              Hakeem (1st) with the Rockets.

              Thomas (2nd) with the Pistons.

              And we'll stop there.

              These teams were all assembled around that first future HOF player that they drafted (with the exception being the Shaq/Kobe Lakers; and I don't think I need to explain why we can't hope to build our teams like the Lakers did/do). That's the first domino that has to fall; after that, there are different ways to build your team.

              Also, take a look at the teams that lost in the finals. Many were built around 'franchise' picks like Durant, Lebron, Howard, Iverson and Ewing.

              It just seems to me that if there's a player coming up in a draft who is a consensus franchise player, like Duncan and Lebron were, and like Wiggins appears to be, then you should seriously consider tanking to give yourself the best possible chance at drafting that player.

              *The only example of not building your team this way, and a lot of luck went into that team coming together like it did: Ben Wallace emerging out of nowhere as a once-in-a-generation player, Billups finally figuring it out after his fiftieth team, Rasheed Wallace being traded to them for nothing (one of the most underrated bad trades that I can think of). So I don't consider it a team building model to follow.
              "Stop eating your sushi."
              "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
              "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
              - Jack Armstrong

              Comment


              • #37
                It's easy to say let's tank for this kid, but what are the chances that you actually get the #1 overall pick. I'm pretty sure you'd have competition in the tank battle and even if you finish with the worst record, it's still only a 25% chance. It's not a sure fire bullet proof plan.

                To build a team, you need to establish a core of players that you will ride with. Next, you adapt your system in order to maximize the potential of that core. The system must be carried on by both coaches and management. Last, you surround the core with complimentary role players when fit the system.

                Miami, OKC, Indiana and San Antonio are great examples of establishing a core & with it a system, then surrounding them with players who allow the teams to carry on with their system. Each situation is a unique combination of draft picks, trades and free agent acquisitions. Each situation has a different identity and culture.

                If the Raptors are convinced that a core has been more or less established (Gay, DeRozan, Valanciunas and Lowry), then it's time to proceed with establishing a unique system that features the core. The main thing now is having the coaches and management to share the same vision in order to carry out the plan.

                My biggest worry is that management may have one vision, while coaches have another. You have to evaluate now (speaking to the owners now) whether we have the proper personnel that can showcase our core the best way possible. That, I think, is the biggest hurdle going into the off season.


                -- Charles Barkley

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                • #38
                  torch19 wrote: View Post
                  It's easy to say let's tank for this kid, but what are the chances that you actually get the #1 overall pick. I'm pretty sure you'd have competition in the tank battle and even if you finish with the worst record, it's still only a 25% chance. It's not a sure fire bullet proof plan.

                  To build a team, you need to establish a core of players that you will ride with. Next, you adapt your system in order to maximize the potential of that core. The system must be carried on by both coaches and management. Last, you surround the core with complimentary role players when fit the system.

                  Miami, OKC, Indiana and San Antonio are great examples of establishing a core & with it a system, then surrounding them with players who allow the teams to carry on with their system. Each situation is a unique combination of draft picks, trades and free agent acquisitions. Each situation has a different identity and culture.

                  If the Raptors are convinced that a core has been more or less established (Gay, DeRozan, Valanciunas and Lowry), then it's time to proceed with establishing a unique system that features the core. The main thing now is having the coaches and management to share the same vision in order to carry out the plan.

                  My biggest worry is that management may have one vision, while coaches have another. You have to evaluate now (speaking to the owners now) whether we have the proper personnel that can showcase our core the best way possible. That, I think, is the biggest hurdle going into the off season.
                  I feel that the Raptor's organization are not in agreement rather they agree to disagree, every year the roster always looks good and then they falter, it necessarily doesn't have to be negative as it can lead into tweaks in development but it's every year the same result, they have the talent, they now need production with their talent.

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                  • #39
                    Sprechen wrote: View Post
                    @ebrian - go crack open a math text book, study it for a few days and then tell me again how Amir is getting $9 mill a year. Even if he makes all of the bonuses in the deal it's still only $34 mill over 5 years which is less than $7mill per. For someone to say Amir did "nothing" in his first two years of the deal clearly didn't watch any of those games. He was the only guy who gave 100% on every possession, regardless of the circumstances. The foul trouble limited his playing time but when he was in he was very effective.
                    Unfortunately playing really really really hard in sports doesn't equate to being deserving of $30M contracts unless we're talking about over 6-8 years. In this case Colangelo overbid against himself in the same way he has done countless other times. There is absolutely no reason to give a $6M average salary (not to mention throwing in a trade-kicker) to an offensively limited player with hustle. Especially when your highest paid player (at the time) played the same position. With 5 years in the NBA you already knew what he had to offer. He's a nice complimentary player who would never start on a good team and by the 3rd year mark of the contract, this team will have won ~80 games total.

                    That he's become a decent starter on a team that will win 33-35 games is not proof that the contract was good. Rather, it's the silver lining to an otherwise poor business decision.
                    your pal,
                    ebrian

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                    • #40
                      RepRaptorsintheUSA wrote: View Post
                      Point Guard: BJ Armstrong (1995)
                      Armstrong was selected from the Chicago Bulls with the first overall pick in the 1995 Expansion Draft.

                      Is there a higher number than one?
                      If that is the only thing your arguing i'll consider that progress.
                      I'll make my " " more bigger next time as well.
                      So because BJ Armstrong didn't want to come to Canada and suit up for an expansion team 20 years ago out of the expansion draft, you've given up all hope on building through the draft lottery?

                      And even if I were to give you the benefit of the doubt by lumping the expansion draft process in the same category as the lottery draft (which I don't), that doesn't apply to any of the other names on your list which you seem to be basing your entire theory around.

                      Furthermore, there's plenty of evidence to support the contrary that is much more recent AND relevant. The Raptors 4 leading scorers (and 5 of the top 7) of all time were all drafted by the team. Pssst... most of them were lottery picks too.
                      Last edited by Fully; Fri Mar 1, 2013, 01:19 PM.

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                      • #41
                        Of the examples, only Alonzo Mourning and John Salmons were in the past decade.

                        Mourning is a story we're all familiar with that has nothing to do with risk of a player not willing to play for us. He was nearly the twilight of his career and he'd just been traded to a team that was gutted. I myself would not want to go there. No one would.

                        John Salmons saw a better deal from the Kings and went for it. It's no different that Jordan changing his mind and not doing a trade. It ain't final until the man signs on the dotted line.

                        The BJ Armstrong situation is extremely unique, because likely the only reason Armstrong refused to come to the Raptors was because we're in Canada and we were an unknown at the time of the expansion. Let's face it even now there are Americans who think we live in igloos.
                        your pal,
                        ebrian

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          @JImiCliff - How many of those teams intentionally tanked to get those picks and how many players selected within the range of players you listed have turned out to be busts or even mediocre players. As I mentioned earlier, we have five guys on our roster within that range. Often times a draft class is devoid of true franchise players. The odds of landing a franchise guy to build around are very slim and a lot of luck has to come into play. Can't believe Kobe was 13th! Tanking is no surefire, tried and true method of becoming a contender in this league. I still say fight for every win possible regardless of the fall out.

                          @RaptorsRepublic - Thanks for making this thread a feature. I'll have to contribute more it seems.
                          Last edited by Sprechen; Fri Mar 1, 2013, 10:58 PM.

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                          • #43
                            Fully wrote: View Post
                            So because BJ Armstrong didn't want to come to Canada and suit up for an expansion team 20 years ago out of the expansion draft, you've given up all hope on building through the draft lottery?

                            And even if I were to give you the benefit of the doubt by lumping the expansion draft process in the same category as the lottery draft (which I don't), that doesn't apply to any of the other names on your list which you seem to be basing your entire theory around.

                            Furthermore, there's plenty of evidence to support the contrary that is much more recent AND relevant. The Raptors 4 leading scorers (and 5 of the top 7) of all time were all drafted by the team. Pssst... most of them were lottery picks too.
                            WOW. Your stats are cute....but not really relevant. How can you be proud of that? Our leading scorers? To me, you are proving why we need to change our approach. Let's start with what really matters.

                            Championships & Playoff appearances. You must be trying to win a scoring title. I want to win the NBA CHAMPIONSHIP. The one given to the winning TEAM. OUR current formula has brought ONE (1) Eastern Conference SEMI Final Playoff series & FOUR (4) first round knockouts. 5/18 is not good enough. Developing talent for other teams is not good enough. Time for a change of approach don't you think?

                            Just take a look at our 30 draft picks. Read the entire list. We take the best player, they don't stay. We take what we need, we get rid of them. We've been pissing in the wind. Let's look at the team that got us the furthest into the playoffs. The 2000-2001 Toronto Raptors. Charles Oakley, Chris Childs, Keon Clark, Antonio Davis. Drafted? By Toronto? Hmmmm. Let's look at the Grizzlies. Same amount of time in the league. Same playoff experience. Marc Gasol was drafted by the Grizzlies? No. Zach Randolph was drafted by the Grizzles? Nooooooooo.

                            If you think i'm gonna wait another 20 years for the NEXT "franchise player" to build around your sick. Is there a higher probability THIS FRANCHISE is gonna the draft the next Lebron James or the next Araujo?

                            Seriously? Fer real? Please. TRADES & FREE AGENCY. End of story.
                            Last edited by RepRaptorsintheUSA; Sat Mar 2, 2013, 07:20 AM. Reason: Spelling issues because of red hot anger

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                            • #44
                              Sprechen wrote: View Post
                              @RaptorsRepublic - Thanks for making this thread a feature. I'll have to contribute more it seems.
                              No prob Sprechen. Good discussion.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Sprechen wrote: View Post
                                @JImiCliff - How many of those teams intentionally tanked to get those picks
                                That's an excellent point - not many. Seattle/OKC and Cleveland (twice [! {now with Irving}]) are the only examples that really jump out at me.

                                But my feeling is, if there's a player who looks like surefire franchise player, you should tank if it improve your odds. Wiggins looks like that kind of player. Also - and this is so important - he's a Canadian, from this city. So he'd probably stick around after his rookie contract. If the Raptors are serious about becoming a championship team, and not just a good team, they should do everything they possibly can to increase the chance that they get Wiggins. Which means tanking.
                                "Stop eating your sushi."
                                "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                                "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                                - Jack Armstrong

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