SGs: Who will not return next season?

[KHD]

The Raptors are steadily adding more talent... with worse results.

That's the reality of it. The most significant problem for Toronto right now is coaching.

[mcHAPPY]

I tend to agree. I don't doubt BC is all in with this lineup. But I will argue here that this team could easily be 5th or 6th seed next year. The biggest problem is there is no flow or structure to the offense. The players aren't being used properly and there is little ball movement and little off the ball movement. None of the starters move well without the ball. Or maybe they do but the offense doesn't require it. Either way, we know our wings are being used almost exclusively in ISO, leading to alot of turnovers and contested shots. Lowry isn't being aggressive (anymore) and there could be any number of reasons for that. Nonetheless, I envision Lowry being the primary initiator of the offense. He needs the ball in his hands to be effective. Drive and kick. Draw the help and move the ball. Lowry can do this with or without screens. But he needs to be aggressive. And he needs to improve on the pick and roll. No reason why he can't be an all around PG. He needs his defense back, and thats on him completely.

JV is only going to get better in the low post. He will draw double teams, and if he can move the ball out of the post it will create open shots. I have alot of confidence in this guy. He should get minimum 12-15 FGA and 25+ touches in the post. The inside-outside game should be utilized as much as possble.

Now Rudy is the x-factor. He has all the skills to have a diversified offensive game. He can score in just about in any way, and thats why some consider him to be a great player. He has great lenght, decent ball handling skills, a good shot (arguably) and not a bad guy to go to with the shot clock down. But, the Raps tend to use him in ISO as the first option and to me this is the worst case scenario for Rudy Gay offensive utilization. They should be running sets for this guy. Get him moving without the ball and running by a screen or two for an open jumper. Have him set screens for Lowry. Could lead to a drive and kick. Or Rudy can roll to the basket. Or he gets a mismatch with the opposing PG. I'm no offensive guru obviously, but its pretty basic stuff I'm preaching here. The key is to get the guy some open looks and use him in variety of ways. Don't let him settle in and get comfortable with just taking jump shots. I'd like to see him get 3-4 post-ups, 3-4 shots off screens, 3-4 off drives, that type of situation. And if Lowry is being aggressive and JV is getting double teamed, at some point Gay will be the recipient of the kick out and that's a few more open shots right there. With 6-8 seconds left in the clock, then you clear out and let Gay go to work.

Amir doesn't need the ball offensively. He'll do all the little things to help and we know all that so I won't go into it. But he has shown a decent little hook across the lane, and heis pretty good in the pick and roll. A few attempts from Amir would only give the defense something else to look at here and there.

Now Demar is where I have a problem. I like him and his game (to an extent) but I would not have him starting on this team. If the team is run like I say above than the SG position is better suited to a spot shooter that can take advantage of JV's and Rudy's double teams and Lowry's penetrations. We have 3 options currently, Fields, Anderson, and Ross. I don't want Ross starting, he has some refining to do before he's ready for that. AA would be good if he didn't get trigger happy, but he may not be back. So I'd go with Fields. He is good defensively and if all goes well in the offseason he may regain his shooting form. I think he has struggled this year due to the injury and finding some way to fit in on a team with no identity that upgraded at his position mid-way through the season. Plus he moves well without the ball so he will give the other guys options for passes. It's arguable if he is suited as a SG, but i'd be willing to try it and see what happens.

Position Starter Bench
C Valanciunas Bargnani
PF Johnson Acy
SF Gay DeRozan
SG Fields Ross
PG Lowry Telfair

I know, I know. I see the issues. Bargs and DeRozan combine for over $20 mil and come off the bench. But not a bad duo to run the offense through. DeRozan can be a potent scorer off the bench, and Bargs can come in and (maybe) space the floor. Can Derozan play the SF position? I'm sure this could be a problem at times, but I am certainly not suggesting that we swap all 5 guys at the same time anyways. If one of Derozan or Ross come in Fields can move to the SF. And Bargs and Acy would be a weak defensive duo up front, so I wouldn't play them together. Furthermore, a couple of minor moves to upgrade the backup PG or PF could easily be made, like a Carl Landry for example.

The key is using the players skills appropriately and moving the ball around the court. There is enough talent here to win 45 games next year. Of course, I haven't addressed defense, nor will I as I know little about it. But if players hustle and rotate correctly, the defense should be pretty good. This team has shown glimpses of good defense so I believe it is possible.

Now I'm not suggesting this is the route the team should take, because I doubt it could be a contender. But if I had this lineup, that is how I would try to use it. And I also know it wouldn't happen.

That addresses offense. Many look at the full season and say there is nothing wrong with the O as OffRtg has them at 16th in the league (this has been steadily dropping). Since the Gay trade the Raps are 24th in the league in OffRtg.

But defense, surprisingly and disappointingly, is a huge fail this season. The teams idea of defense is to foul... in fact fouling is the only category the Raps destroy the rest of the league in. On the season the Raps are 22nd in DefRtg and since the Gay trade the Raps are 24th.

The Raptors are steadily adding more talent... with worse results.

[JimiCliff]

Fields starting is going to be insane with no DeMar it means the team will focus even more on Gay on the outside...losing DeMar to start a guy with a wonky potentially career ending ligament injury in his elbow that affects his game night in night out and missed layups is a great way to steer the franchise. Moving Demar will staight up cripple the team we can talk about moving DeMar when Ross has 3 years under his belt and develops some consistency.

Newsflash Ross was playing well against the Bucks back ups back ups and we weren't even in the game anymore so they stopped playing D, Ross better get some dunks in. Last games DeMar has been putting up 20 pts a night give the guy a little respect. I love Ross but lets address who is a part of the future a little bit later DeMar has been playing well as the starting 2 and 2nd option beside Gay ya he takes a lot of jumpers but more often than not those midrange shots for him are money especially on a mismatch.

If you're going to be honest, you'll admit that Demar himself sure hasn't done much to un-cripple this team over the past four years.

[isaacthompson]

I don't see any of them not being here next year. I think AA will get a new deal too. I think Klieza (since he seems to be unable to recover from his knee injury) will be gone and Pietrus wont come back.

I nearly forgot Pietrus was on the team. Geez.

[RaptorsFan4Life]

I don't see any of them not being here next year. I think AA will get a new deal too. I think Klieza (since he seems to be unable to recover from his knee injury) will be gone and Pietrus wont come back.

[JawsGT]

To Casey, Fields is a versatile SF that can play three positions, who doesn't need the ball on offense, and who can guard elite SFs. To the rest of the league, he's an overpaid claw-hand. When a player is so much more valuable to his current team, he's not going anywhere except as matching salary.

Ross is cheap and high upside. He might be a more tradeable asset than either of the others, but the Raptors need some rookie-salary guys to balance their roster. I could see him being traded for a young underperformer who fits more of a need for the Raptors, but not as a part of acquiring another big ticket player.

DeRozan is the most likely of the three to go: he's fairly-paid, skilled, and young enough that the Raptors could get a good player back, and there's the much-cited redundancy with Gay factor. However, there's also the fact that he's played some of the most effective ball of his career since Gay arrived.

My gut feeling is that none of these guys get traded in the offseason, unless it's to facilitate a Bargs trade. None of these guys are likely to actually go down in trade value, and both Ross and Fields could go up significantly over the next year. I think we'll see a quiet offseason, unless Colangelo either is fired and someone else wants to clean house, or he gets an offer he can't refuse. We'll see a very similar team to this one to start the season, but when they start to slip below .500 (which could be three weeks into the season), there will be some major moves.

I tend to agree. I don't doubt BC is all in with this lineup. But I will argue here that this team could easily be 5th or 6th seed next year. The biggest problem is there is no flow or structure to the offense. The players aren't being used properly and there is little ball movement and little off the ball movement. None of the starters move well without the ball. Or maybe they do but the offense doesn't require it. Either way, we know our wings are being used almost exclusively in ISO, leading to alot of turnovers and contested shots. Lowry isn't being aggressive (anymore) and there could be any number of reasons for that. Nonetheless, I envision Lowry being the primary initiator of the offense. He needs the ball in his hands to be effective. Drive and kick. Draw the help and move the ball. Lowry can do this with or without screens. But he needs to be aggressive. And he needs to improve on the pick and roll. No reason why he can't be an all around PG. He needs his defense back, and thats on him completely.

JV is only going to get better in the low post. He will draw double teams, and if he can move the ball out of the post it will create open shots. I have alot of confidence in this guy. He should get minimum 12-15 FGA and 25+ touches in the post. The inside-outside game should be utilized as much as possble.

Now Rudy is the x-factor. He has all the skills to have a diversified offensive game. He can score in just about in any way, and thats why some consider him to be a great player. He has great lenght, decent ball handling skills, a good shot (arguably) and not a bad guy to go to with the shot clock down. But, the Raps tend to use him in ISO as the first option and to me this is the worst case scenario for Rudy Gay offensive utilization. They should be running sets for this guy. Get him moving without the ball and running by a screen or two for an open jumper. Have him set screens for Lowry. Could lead to a drive and kick. Or Rudy can roll to the basket. Or he gets a mismatch with the opposing PG. I'm no offensive guru obviously, but its pretty basic stuff I'm preaching here. The key is to get the guy some open looks and use him in variety of ways. Don't let him settle in and get comfortable with just taking jump shots. I'd like to see him get 3-4 post-ups, 3-4 shots off screens, 3-4 off drives, that type of situation. And if Lowry is being aggressive and JV is getting double teamed, at some point Gay will be the recipient of the kick out and that's a few more open shots right there. With 6-8 seconds left in the clock, then you clear out and let Gay go to work.

Amir doesn't need the ball offensively. He'll do all the little things to help and we know all that so I won't go into it. But he has shown a decent little hook across the lane, and heis pretty good in the pick and roll. A few attempts from Amir would only give the defense something else to look at here and there.

Now Demar is where I have a problem. I like him and his game (to an extent) but I would not have him starting on this team. If the team is run like I say above than the SG position is better suited to a spot shooter that can take advantage of JV's and Rudy's double teams and Lowry's penetrations. We have 3 options currently, Fields, Anderson, and Ross. I don't want Ross starting, he has some refining to do before he's ready for that. AA would be good if he didn't get trigger happy, but he may not be back. So I'd go with Fields. He is good defensively and if all goes well in the offseason he may regain his shooting form. I think he has struggled this year due to the injury and finding some way to fit in on a team with no identity that upgraded at his position mid-way through the season. Plus he moves well without the ball so he will give the other guys options for passes. It's arguable if he is suited as a SG, but i'd be willing to try it and see what happens.

Position Starter Bench
C Valanciunas Bargnani
PF Johnson Acy
SF Gay DeRozan
SG Fields Ross
PG Lowry Telfair

I know, I know. I see the issues. Bargs and DeRozan combine for over $20 mil and come off the bench. But not a bad duo to run the offense through. DeRozan can be a potent scorer off the bench, and Bargs can come in and (maybe) space the floor. Can Derozan play the SF position? I'm sure this could be a problem at times, but I am certainly not suggesting that we swap all 5 guys at the same time anyways. If one of Derozan or Ross come in Fields can move to the SF. And Bargs and Acy would be a weak defensive duo up front, so I wouldn't play them together. Furthermore, a couple of minor moves to upgrade the backup PG or PF could easily be made, like a Carl Landry for example.

The key is using the players skills appropriately and moving the ball around the court. There is enough talent here to win 45 games next year. Of course, I haven't addressed defense, nor will I as I know little about it. But if players hustle and rotate correctly, the defense should be pretty good. This team has shown glimpses of good defense so I believe it is possible.

Now I'm not suggesting this is the route the team should take, because I doubt it could be a contender. But if I had this lineup, that is how I would try to use it. And I also know it wouldn't happen.

[mcHAPPY]

Maybe i'm hoping for too much....However, I dont believe the way to get better is to trade your better players. I would rather keep our SGs as is and hope for improvement from all of them.

DD should be here next year.

I would much rather see Fields, Ross or AA (let him walk OR sign and trade?) Go.

There should be NO ARGUMENT that DD is CURRENTLY better than all of the players above.

I understand that DD is EASILY our best trade piece.

However, I think as a GM you need to keep your best players and get rid of bad contracts/players if you truly want to compete for a championship/playoffs.

I like Ross BUT he's just potential right now....he's no better defensively than DD (I'm not sure he'll be better offensively either). DD belongs in the nba .....Ross should've gotten time in the d-league.

If DD can develop a 3 point shot (see jason kidd) he Will be dangerous. I'm not ready to give up on our 18 ppg 23 year old scorer JUST YET. We can always wait to see if he improves before we go down that road.

It really boggles my mind that people would rather trade DD over the unproven (scrubs) above BUT such is the state of affairs in raptorland.

Off topic..

I would like to see Bargs go and get a useful PF piece back if possible or just amnesty the guy. THAT is my only wish with regards to changes. I wouldnt mind packaging Lowry and Fields for Brandon Jennings (I would do that in a heartbeat).

THAT being said - Getting rid of BARGS is my only off-season priority!

Glad you understand the first bold as that is the point of the thread. I am not debating who is the best player of the three in the poll.

The problem with DeRozan is you have a duplicate (but better) version at SF getting paid $17.9M next season and $19.3M the year after.

Fields and Ross are both more diverse players than DeRozan and offer a skill set better suited next to Gay.

The second bold goes back to your first bold. We can sit around and talk about trading Ross or Fields (or both!) for Wade or Harden but that is not reasonable. The talk about trading DeRozan is because he is the most likely trade piece given the overlap with Gay.

Putting the best or most talented players together is not going to guarantee success. The pieces need to compliment one another and there has to be some chemistry. I'm not seeing chemistry in the current "my turn, your turn" ISO offense Toronto is running.

[special1]

Fields was acquired in an attempt to screw the Knicks out of Nash.

Fields has not played SG in Toronto because they already had a SG.

Because Toronto has played Fields at SF does not necessarily make him ideally suited as one.

Fields was the starting SG on a playoff team his first 2 seasons in the NBA.... that is more than DeRozan can say in 4 years.

Maybe i'm hoping for too much....However, I dont believe the way to get better is to trade your better players. I would rather keep our SGs as is and hope for improvement from all of them.

DD should be here next year.

I would much rather see Fields, Ross or AA (let him walk OR sign and trade?) Go.

There should be NO ARGUMENT that DD is CURRENTLY better than all of the players above.

I understand that DD is EASILY our best trade piece.

However, I think as a GM you need to keep your best players and get rid of bad contracts/players if you truly want to compete for a championship/playoffs.

I like Ross BUT he's just potential right now....he's no better defensively than DD (I'm not sure he'll be better offensively either). DD belongs in the nba .....Ross should've gotten time in the d-league.

If DD can develop a 3 point shot (see jason kidd) he Will be dangerous. I'm not ready to give up on our 18 ppg 23 year old scorer JUST YET. We can always wait to see if he improves before we go down that road.

It really boggles my mind that people would rather trade DD over the unproven (scrubs) above BUT such is the state of affairs in raptorland.

Off topic..

I would like to see Bargs go and get a useful PF piece back if possible or just amnesty the guy. THAT is my only wish with regards to changes. I wouldnt mind packaging Lowry and Fields for Brandon Jennings (I would do that in a heartbeat).

THAT being said - Getting rid of BARGS is my only off-season priority!

[mcHAPPY]

Fields starting is going to be insane with no DeMar it means the team will focus even more on Gay on the outside...losing DeMar to start a guy with a wonky potentially career ending ligament injury in his elbow that affects his game night in night out and missed layups is a great way to steer the franchise. Moving Demar will staight up cripple the team we can talk about moving DeMar when Ross has 3 years under his belt and develops some consistency.

Newsflash Ross was playing well against the Bucks back ups back ups and we weren't even in the game anymore so they stopped playing D, Ross better get some dunks in. Last games DeMar has been putting up 20 pts a night give the guy a little respect. I love Ross but lets address who is a part of the future a little bit later DeMar has been playing well as the starting 2 and 2nd option beside Gay ya he takes a lot of jumpers but more often than not those midrange shots for him are money especially on a mismatch.

Do you have a source on the potentially career ending ligament injury? Because he has come back to play 43 games and his shot has shown noticeable improvement in form and mechanics as the season has progressed. An off season of strength training and shooting will hopefully see him regain his form. I can see no reasonable reason why this would not be the case.

Newsflash.... Since Fields has returned from injury December 26, here are his shooting percentages:

8ft and under: 55.2%
8-16ft: 42.1%
16-24ft: 40%
24+ft: 18.2% (11 attempts thus far)

Here are DD's on the season as he has been healthy whole season:

8ft and under: 55.1%
8-16ft: 39.0%
16-24ft: 40.6%
24+ft: 23.6% (106 attempts thus far)

Your claims on Fields effect are bogus and based on percentages I am not seeing a huge drop off from DeRozan to Fields (never mind Fields currently gets more rebounds per game in nearly half the time). Granted the sample size for Fields isn't great due to limited role and minutes so lets look at Fields last season we know was unaffected by his elbow, 2010-11:

8ft and under: 61.3%
8-16ft: 30.6%
16-24ft: 43.3%
24+ft: 39.8% (216 attempts)

[mcHAPPY]

I stand corrected on his NY experience, however his Raps' experience has not included 1 minute of time as a SG, but all of it as either a SF or small ball PF, which suits his skill set far more than him trying to cover quick SGs. Whatever the then disjointed Knicks played him as, it's pretty clear that the Raps got him to play SF, and that's what they've used him at. It makes zero sense to dump DD and move Fields into an unsuitable position. Ross is certainly not ready to start, so do the Raps start Anderson until then?

Fields was acquired in an attempt to screw the Knicks out of Nash.

Fields has not played SG in Toronto because they already had a SG.... and drafted another.

Because Toronto has played Fields at SF does not necessarily make him ideally suited as one.

Fields was the starting SG on a playoff team his first 2 seasons in the NBA.... that is more than DeRozan can say in 4 years.

[Rapstor4Life]

Fields starting is going to be insane with no DeMar it means the team will focus even more on Gay on the outside...losing DeMar to start a guy with a wonky potentially career ending ligament injury in his elbow that affects his game night in night out and missed layups is a great way to steer the franchise. Moving Demar will staight up cripple the team we can talk about moving DeMar when Ross has 3 years under his belt and develops some consistency.

Newsflash Ross was playing well against the Bucks back ups back ups and we weren't even in the game anymore so they stopped playing D, Ross better get some dunks in. Last games DeMar has been putting up 20 pts a night give the guy a little respect. I love Ross but lets address who is a part of the future a little bit later DeMar has been playing well as the starting 2 and 2nd option beside Gay ya he takes a lot of jumpers but more often than not those midrange shots for him are money especially on a mismatch.

[octothorp]

To Casey, Fields is a versatile SF that can play three positions, who doesn't need the ball on offense, and who can guard elite SFs. To the rest of the league, he's an overpaid claw-hand. When a player is so much more valuable to his current team, he's not going anywhere except as matching salary.

Ross is cheap and high upside. He might be a more tradeable asset than either of the others, but the Raptors need some rookie-salary guys to balance their roster. I could see him being traded for a young underperformer who fits more of a need for the Raptors, but not as a part of acquiring another big ticket player.

DeRozan is the most likely of the three to go: he's fairly-paid, skilled, and young enough that the Raptors could get a good player back, and there's the much-cited redundancy with Gay factor. However, there's also the fact that he's played some of the most effective ball of his career since Gay arrived.

My gut feeling is that none of these guys get traded in the offseason, unless it's to facilitate a Bargs trade. None of these guys are likely to actually go down in trade value, and both Ross and Fields could go up significantly over the next year. I think we'll see a quiet offseason, unless Colangelo either is fired and someone else wants to clean house, or he gets an offer he can't refuse. We'll see a very similar team to this one to start the season, but when they start to slip below .500 (which could be three weeks into the season), there will be some major moves.

[p00ka]

He was always SG in NY.

Prior to Carmelo in NY he was paired with Wilson Chandler.

It does not mean much but Basketball-Reference has him listed as SG from the 2010-11 Knicks team as well as 2011-12 while Chandler was the SF while in 2009-10 Chandler was listed as the SG.

I stand corrected on his NY experience, however his Raps' experience has not included 1 minute of time as a SG, but all of it as either a SF or small ball PF, which suits his skill set far more than him trying to cover quick SGs. Whatever the then disjointed Knicks played him as, it's pretty clear that the Raps got him to play SF, and that's what they've used him at. It makes zero sense to dump DD and move Fields into an unsuitable position. Ross is certainly not ready to start, so do the Raps start Anderson until then?

[mcHAPPY]

Classic example from last night:



Had that been DeMar, we would've seen some sort of wonky finger roll.

Yup. I hate to say it. It is DD's inconsistencies that continue to drive me nuts. You see it on drives which affects his FT attempts. You see it on rebounds and assists. You really never know what you are going to get other than 7 or 8 21-foot jump shots a night

[isaacthompson]

If I was inclined I would go back to January when he got some burn and everyone was on the other extreme end of the discussion.

I am not sure about All-Star but I see a very good 6th man at worst for him. If the Raps actually had some motion and ball movement in their offense I am sure he'd be open for set 3's versus the curling catch and shoot type he often takes.

What I love most about Ross is he just about ALWAYS looks to dunk on a drive. If DeMar did that the same way Ross does, DD would be an All-Star by now.

Classic example from last night:



Had that been DeMar, we would've seen some sort of wonky finger roll.