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  • #31
    Fully wrote: View Post
    They didn't acquire Gay for nothing - they had to give up Calderon (arguably the Raps best player this season at the time of the trade) and Davis (an emerging big on a rookie scale deal), and a 2nd round pick as well. There's also the opportunity cost of a move like this, where the team is now financially squeezed for the foreseeable future as opposed to having Calderon's deal come off the books this summer.
    With DeRozan's extension and Davis' contract, that is irrelevant except for the full versus mini-MLE. They had no financial flexibility.

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    • #32
      Yeah, he nailed it, though I will say DeRozan had his best season as a pro, for whatever that's worth. He still needs to work on the handles, defense, and 3 point shooting.

      For me, Jonas' upside, and Amir's season are the only highlights.
      Last edited by GhostDog; Tue Apr 16th, 2013, 02:30 PM.

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      • #33
        Matt52 wrote: View Post
        With DeRozan's extension and Davis' contract, that is irrelevant except for the full versus mini-MLE. They had no financial flexibility.
        Bargnani/Kleiza amnesty would give them additional flexibility. Their current situation makes it so amnestying either one of them still doesn't give them additional options.

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        • #34
          Matt52 wrote: View Post
          With DeRozan's extension and Davis' contract, that is irrelevant except for the full versus mini-MLE. They had no financial flexibility.
          And maybe my math is wrong but wouldn't they have been right around $51 million this summer (even with the DD extension & Davis deal accounted for)?

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          • #35
            Fully wrote: View Post
            Bargnani/Kleiza amnesty would give them additional flexibility. Their current situation makes it so amnestying either one of them still doesn't give them additional options.
            That's why I keep going back to the Raptors needing to make 3 moves in order to be able to significantly improve their team, both in terms of talent and financially:

            1. Amnesty Kleiza

            2. Trade Bargnani for something positive, even a good backup PG would be acceptable at this point (ie: to Minny for Ridnour & Williams would be ideal)

            3. Trade DeRozan for a starting PF (ie: S&T deal for Millsap would be ideal)

            4. depending on exact details of #2 & #3, the net effect could mean the Raps have a full MLE available for potentially an additional upgrade

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            • #36
              Fully wrote: View Post
              Bargnani/Kleiza amnesty would give them additional flexibility. Their current situation makes it so amnestying either one of them still doesn't give them additional options.
              Amnestying Bargnani is not an option, in my opinion, but you are right it would have been there. I forgot about amnestying Kleiza. The Raptors would have been around $48M I believe but without a starting SF, depth at PF/C, or backup PG. Plus the additional cap space would have meant no exceptions other than top up $2.5M.

              Fully wrote: View Post
              And maybe my math is wrong but wouldn't they have been right around $51 million this summer (even with the DD extension & Davis deal accounted for)?
              Yes, you are right. I don't agree with or think amnestying Bargnani is an option. Amnesty Kleiza and the Raps would've had about $46/47M leaving $11/12M to get a backup PG and starting SF..... and for those clamouring for Jose don't forget his cap hold and likely salary would have left peanuts for a wing.

              Any cap space Toronto had would have been used to facilitate a trade as free agency is rarely an option for Toronto because they have sucked for 5 years. Essentially, the type of deal they did for Gay was the type of deal they'd have likely done in the off season. The trade would have left them with the same cap situation they currently have, MLE, and Jose's Bird Rights.

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              • #37
                Matt52 wrote: View Post
                Amnestying Bargnani is not an option, in my opinion, but you are right it would have been there. I forgot about amnestying Kleiza. The Raptors would have been around $48M I believe but without a starting SF, depth at PF/C, or backup PG. Plus the additional cap space would have meant no exceptions other than top up $2.5M.



                Yes, you are right. I don't agree with or think amnestying Bargnani is an option. Amnesty Kleiza and the Raps would've had about $46/47M leaving $11/12M to get a backup PG and starting SF..... and for those clamouring for Jose don't forget his cap hold and likely salary would have left peanuts for a wing.

                Any cap space Toronto had would have been used to facilitate a trade as free agency is rarely an option for Toronto because they have sucked for 5 years. Essentially, the type of deal they did for Gay was the type of deal they'd have likely done in the off season. The trade would have left them with the same cap situation they currently have, MLE, and Jose's Bird Rights.
                I don't see why not. In the scenario above (actually all amnesty scenarion involving Bargnani and Kleiza), amnestying Bargnani gives approx 6 mil additional cap space.

                That would leave the team at approx. 40 mi or so, with Jonas/Amir/Ed for their bigs (Acy aswell), Ross/Fields/Demar and ofcourse Lowry. They would also have had approx 7.4 in expiring contracts in Lucas, Gray and Kleiza.

                That leaves plenty of room to go after all sorts of players, still resign Lowry and Ed etc (or the option to go in the completely opposite direction should they choose to - tank and take on bad contracts for picks. Just throwing that out there)

                Given a 'didn't trade for Gay' future, I don't see how amnestying Bargnani isn't or shouldn't be an option. (I actually still don't see why its not an option now, but from a flexibility stand point is does make less now than previously.)

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                • #38
                  Craiger wrote: View Post
                  I don't see why not. In the scenario above (actually all amnesty scenarion involving Bargnani and Kleiza), amnestying Bargnani gives approx 6 mil additional cap space.

                  That would leave the team at approx. 40 mi or so, with Jonas/Amir/Ed for their bigs (Acy aswell), Ross/Fields/Demar and ofcourse Lowry. They would also have had approx 7.4 in expiring contracts in Lucas, Gray and Kleiza.

                  That leaves plenty of room to go after all sorts of players, still resign Lowry and Ed etc (or the option to go in the completely opposite direction should they choose to - tank and take on bad contracts for picks. Just throwing that out there)

                  Given a 'didn't trade for Gay' future, I don't see how amnestying Bargnani isn't or shouldn't be an option. (I actually still don't see why its not an option now, but from a flexibility stand point is does make less now than previously.)
                  I was going to write something very similar.

                  I'll agree that amnestying Bargnani makes less sense post-Gay-trade as they still won't have any flexibility even if they cut ties with him, but if they stayed the course of the "rebuild" (didn't trade for Gay)I think it should have been seriously considered.

                  It would have given them a significant hunk of cap space this summer to go after a guy like Millsap and fill another void as well (backup PG perhaps?). Considering what AB's trade value is right now - I think the value of cutting him would be pretty high if it meant that they could use that money to sign a player(s) that would step into their rotation for the next few seasons. What exactly would the other options be? Keep paying him $12 million and hope that he magically turns it around? Trade him to another team for their unwanted and overpaid garbage? I know you're a big proponent of the Boozer trade but the need for a guy like that goes way down if Colangelo hadn't backed himself into this "win now over the next 2 years" corner.
                  Last edited by Fully; Tue Apr 16th, 2013, 03:52 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Craiger wrote: View Post
                    I don't see why not. In the scenario above (actually all amnesty scenarion involving Bargnani and Kleiza), amnestying Bargnani gives approx 6 mil additional cap space.

                    That would leave the team at approx. 40 mi or so, with Jonas/Amir/Ed for their bigs (Acy aswell), Ross/Fields/Demar and ofcourse Lowry. They would also have had approx 7.4 in expiring contracts in Lucas, Gray and Kleiza.

                    That leaves plenty of room to go after all sorts of players, still resign Lowry and Ed etc (or the option to go in the completely opposite direction should they choose to - tank and take on bad contracts for picks. Just throwing that out there)

                    Given a 'didn't trade for Gay' future, I don't see how amnestying Bargnani isn't or shouldn't be an option. (I actually still don't see why its not an option now, but from a flexibility stand point is does make less now than previously.)
                    Is the team trying to win?

                    PG: Lowry, JL3
                    SG: DD, Ross
                    SF: Fields, Kleiza
                    PF: Davis, Amir
                    C: JV, Gray

                    plus $18M in cap space to be used in free agency or trades.

                    I am sorry but this does not give me tingles or cause for excitement. This team (plus St. Jose) was still only 17-30 prior to getting Gay.

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                    • #40
                      Matt52 wrote: View Post
                      Is the team trying to win?

                      PG: Lowry, JL3
                      SG: DD, Ross
                      SF: Fields, Kleiza
                      PF: Davis, Amir
                      C: JV, Gray

                      plus $18M in cap space to be used in free agency or trades.

                      I am sorry but this does not give me tingles or cause for excitement. This team (plus St. Jose) was still only 17-30 prior to getting Gay.
                      and .500 sans-Bargnani.


                      But honestly, does this team now gives you the tingles? I ask myself the very same question about this team - are they trying to win ? And if they are what is it? The right to lose in the first round of the playoffs if everything goes their way? The above team, with reasonable use of the cap space that would have been created, could do the same to. Not because they are anything special, but because the east after the top few teams sucks.

                      Atleast with the other roster they had a lot more flexibility to make significant changes over this offseason, and/or during the season. Not only in terms of possibly adding peices, but completely changing direction if necessary.

                      Anyway more to the point, amnestying Bargnani in that scenario still makes sense.
                      Last edited by Craiger; Tue Apr 16th, 2013, 06:40 PM.

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                      • #41
                        Craiger wrote: View Post
                        and .500 sans-Bargnani.


                        But honestly, does this team now gives you the tingles? I ask myself the very same question about this team - are they trying to win ? And if they are what is it? The right to lose in the first round of the playoffs if everything goes their way? The above team, with reasonable use of the cap space that would have been created, could do the same to. Not because they are anything special, but because the east after the top few teams sucks.

                        Atleast with the other roster they had a lot more flexibility to make significant changes over this offseason, and/or during the season. Not only in terms of possibly adding peices, but completely changing direction if necessary.

                        Anyway more to the point, amnestying Bargnani in that scenario still makes sense.
                        Bargnani was amnestied so I didn't include him in roster. Still don't think they win more than .400 games even without him.

                        Does current make up of team give me tingles? No.

                        Swap Boozer for Bargnan, get a backup PG, and have Casey go back to defense first and I think you have a playoff team capable of a 5-6 seed for next 2 years and A LOT of flexibility heading in to 2015-16 with hopefully an all-star C.... hope is all we have after all.

                        PG: Lowry, mystery, JL3/Telfair
                        SG: DeRozan, Ross
                        SF: Gay, Fields
                        PF: Boozer, Amir, Acy
                        C: JV, Gray

                        Not lofty goals but better than what has been seen in Raptorland of late.

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