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HoopsWorld.com: Should the Raptors fire Bryan Colangelo?

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  • #31
    If MLSE had decided to go a different route and hire someone else two years ago, it would have made sense. Instead they chose to extend him and allow him to rebuild. When they did so, it was clear what was going to happen. After allowing him to rebuild so far, which was why he got an extension, it makes no sense to fire him. I'm not suggesting that he gets another extension but it only makes sense to pick up his option year. If the team still fails to at least make the play-offs, then don't extend him and start afresh. I know it's frustrating to wait another year but it's the only sensible thing to do IMO.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

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    • #32
      I've always been 50/50 on Colangelo, but once he gave DeMar that extension, it was it for me. DeMar is a nice guy, and wish him a lot of success, but there was absolutely no reason to give him an extension that early and for that value. It was mind boggling at the time, and actually quite embarrassing.

      Outside of that extension you have 5 years without playoffs; the mishandling of Bosh; over valued contracts; and no concrete vision (for example, he tanks hard one year only to go all in for playoffs the next season and fail).

      This guy had cap space, a perennial all-star on the roster, and a #1 pick. He has 2 playoff losses in 7 years to show for it and as a team 8th worst in win/loss percentage for the pass 7 years. He's mediocre at being mediocre. He has failed. He does not deserve another year.

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      • #33
        Nilanka wrote: View Post
        I'd be ok with Colangelo around for another year if he actually showed the ability to learn from his mistakes. But he doesn't.

        - He incorrectly pegged Bosh as a franchise player to be built around, and then repeated the mistake with Bargnani.
        - He competed against nobody by signing Bargnani to an extension, then repeated the mistake with DeRozan.
        - He gave the head coaching reigns to an unproven/inexperienced coach in Triano, and then repeated the mistake with Casey.

        I'm going to guess that Colangelo doesn't magically figure out how to build a winner anytime soon. It'll be more of the same next year....and not a single (sane) person will be surprised.
        Why isn't Bosh a franchise player? He's a top 20 player, there are 30 teams in the league. Is it the idea of "Franchise player" that needs revisiting? The old pattern of team-building is to get the best player on your team surrounded by players that complement them. But I think this falls apart when the supporting players don't complement each other as much as they complement the "franchise player". I would have to disagree with you on Bargs, I don't think he was ever labelled as a franchise player. He was certainly the best player on the team in 2011/2012, but its not like that tenure lasted long enough to try a build a team around him.
        Welp, that sucked.

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        • #34
          Nilanka wrote: View Post
          I'd be ok with Colangelo around for another year if he actually showed the ability to learn from his mistakes. But he doesn't.

          - He incorrectly pegged Bosh as a franchise player to be built around, and then repeated the mistake with Bargnani.
          I actually think that the Bosh situation has a lot to do with luck. Every GM has to face the same sort of thing, it just depends on what falls into your lap at the time, and how much resources you have to work with.

          In the NBA, only 4-5 guys actually deserve the max contract. As in, a player who will eat up this much of your overall salary and will actually deliver. But inevitably there will be 10-15 guys who end up getting it, and still another 10-15 guys who think they deserve it and get pretty close to it. If you're in Camp B, then you're just one of the unlucky few who ended up with a guy, either through draft or trade or inherited when you got hired, that will get the max (no one will question it), but that player will never take you anywhere.

          Even if you know that player won't take you anywhere, it won't matter because he's taken such a huge chunk of your payroll that you have no other choice but to build around that player.
          your pal,
          ebrian

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          • #35
            Late to the party but....

            They want continuity by keeping around a GM that changes players every time he gets a haircut? I bet anything that over the last 7 years we have had more players on our roster than any other team in the league, and I can't imagine it even being close.

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            • #36
              Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
              If MLSE had decided to go a different route and hire someone else two years ago, it would have made sense. Instead they chose to extend him and allow him to rebuild. When they did so, it was clear what was going to happen. After allowing him to rebuild so far, which was why he got an extension, it makes no sense to fire him. I'm not suggesting that he gets another extension but it only makes sense to pick up his option year. If the team still fails to at least make the play-offs, then don't extend him and start afresh. I know it's frustrating to wait another year but it's the only sensible thing to do IMO.
              I don't understand this perspective. Do you think Colangelo has developed a trojan horse virus, where he will activate the minute he gets fired, and when the next GM who is hired tries to check out our roster, the files will become corrupt and unreadable? Perhaps you think the payroll records, and all the statistics recorded by statisticians and SportsVU will suddenly become locked and only Colangelo has the key? And then they will have to call Colangelo and beg him to unlock the secrets on how to run a franchise properly?
              your pal,
              ebrian

              Comment


              • #37
                ebrian wrote: View Post
                In the NBA, only 4-5 guys actually deserve the max contract. As in, a player who will eat up this much of your overall salary and will actually deliver. But inevitably there will be 10-15 guys who end up getting it, and still another 10-15 guys who think they deserve it and get pretty close to it. If you're in Camp B, then you're just one of the unlucky few who ended up with a guy, either through draft or trade or inherited when you got hired, that will get the max (no one will question it), but that player will never take you anywhere.

                Even if you know that player won't take you anywhere, it won't matter because he's taken such a huge chunk of your payroll that you have no other choice but to build around that player.
                I disagree with this, lots of players (I'd say around 20-25 players) deserve max contracts because max contracts have a cap. Lebron probably deserves $30 mil a season but it's not allowed, so he gets his 16.5 and the guy that deserves 20 gets his 16.5 and the guy that deserves 16.5 gets 16.5 as well.

                Bosh deserved (and still does) max because again he's better than the amount that max contracts pay, he's just not one of the 4 guys in the league that can take you far in the playoffs without a great coach and great supporting staff. BC's failing wasn't in believing in Bosh, it was in not making the team good enough to allow him to win in the playoffs while he was here.

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                • #38
                  Letter N wrote: View Post
                  I disagree with this, lots of players (I'd say around 20-25 players) deserve max contracts because max contracts have a cap. Lebron probably deserves $30 mil a season but it's not allowed, so he gets his 16.5 and the guy that deserves 20 gets his 16.5 and the guy that deserves 16.5 gets 16.5 as well.

                  Bosh deserved (and still does) max because again he's better than the amount that max contracts pay, he's just not one of the 4 guys in the league that can take you far in the playoffs without a great coach and great supporting staff. BC's failing wasn't in believing in Bosh, it was in not making the team good enough to allow him to win in the playoffs while he was here.
                  I'm not sure if you realize that your opinion is exactly the same as mine.
                  your pal,
                  ebrian

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    ebrian wrote: View Post
                    I'm not sure if you realize that your opinion is exactly the same as mine.
                    The 2nd part yes, I just disagreed that Bosh is always called out as being not worth a max contract.

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                    • #40
                      Fully wrote: View Post
                      Of course they should fire him. Why is this still a question anymore?

                      I'm tired of hearing the same reasons for keeping him:

                      He's a PR whiz! You know what else is good for PR? Winning.
                      He's a "mover and shaker" in the basketball world! When has this ever actually worked to the advantage of Toronto? And don't say the Rudy Gay trade... Memphis was shopping him around to half the league but no one was willing to eat the salary
                      The organization needs continuity! 7 years in and some people are still worried about pulling the rug out from underneath him? How long should he realistically get to produce even an average team? A decade?
                      please see above

                      Why is this still a question?? Are we all effin losers in Toronto?? If so, we deserve BC. Can you imagine if BC was hired by LA or Boston, or even New York??? Matter of fact - If BC was the GM for any other team, HE would've been fired at least 4 years ago! I don't understand it..... Is it a Canadian thing?? Are we just too nice? Get this loser out of here.

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                      • #41
                        Letter N wrote: View Post
                        The 2nd part yes, I just disagreed that Bosh is always called out as being not worth a max contract.
                        No, I definitely agree that he is worth it. As in, no one else in the league at that time would question giving him a max contract. Like I said, I don't think that part is Colangelo's fault -- he was just unlucky. The unlucky part being that Glen Grunwald wasn't picking first overall in the 2003 NBA Draft.
                        your pal,
                        ebrian

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Letter N wrote: View Post
                          The 2nd part yes, I just disagreed that Bosh is always called out as being not worth a max contract.
                          I have always felt that Bosh was a solid player, but not a 'max player' to be built around. I think he'd be borderline to make the list of top-30 players in the NBA (I don't feel like doing a list right now) at best, plus I don't like the idea of building around a PF in this current NBA. He's one of the top PF in the league, a solid player, good teammate and was always a great team rep in the city, but I certainly don't think he's worth more than $15M per season (max would be roughly $20M+, pending the new salary cap).

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                          • #43
                            CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                            I have always felt that Bosh was a solid player, but not a 'max player' to be built around. I think he'd be borderline to make the list of top-30 players in the NBA (I don't feel like doing a list right now) at best, plus I don't like the idea of building around a PF in this current NBA. He's one of the top PF in the league, a solid player, good teammate and was always a great team rep in the city, but I certainly don't think he's worth more than $15M per season (max would be roughly $20M+, pending the new salary cap).
                            Here is my thing with Bosh:

                            What he did in Toronto (and in general) at a absolute level (ie. 20-10 on 50% shooting) is rare. But on a marginal level (ie. 21-9 on 50% or 18-11 on 48% etc) its rather common.

                            There are lots of players who can do what he did. Not quite as good ofcourse, but very close, and often for much cheaper.

                            Then we have a matter of 'the details'. He is a rather average rebounder, an average to below average defender and doesn't do much to make his teammates better at either end.

                            Bosh is a very efficient and consistent player, specifically offensively. There is alot of value in that. He deserves to be a perennial all-star. But he doesn't have that unique quality true superstars or franchise players do. He doesn't dominate in any one, or numerous, aspects of the game. He doesn't have unique physical attributes that allows him to control either end of the floor. He doesn't have that cold blooded instinct/mental toughness others do. He just sort of 'is'.

                            Its the guys who are unique, who are dominant in areas, who can control the outcome of games who deserve the max deals. Having him as your franchise/best player means your team isn't going to be "elite" without filling your roster with almost equivalent level talent across the board. Now if you pay him max dollars, you are going to have a much more difficult time filling out that roster with equivalent level talent.

                            Just looking at guys who are PFs I'd rather have:

                            -Ibaka
                            -Pau
                            -Lee
                            -Love
                            -Monroe
                            -Horford
                            -Aldridge

                            They can all do what Bosh does, at differing levels ofcourse, but each have something more above and beyond Bosh.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              ebrian wrote: View Post
                              I don't understand this perspective. Do you think Colangelo has developed a trojan horse virus, where he will activate the minute he gets fired, and when the next GM who is hired tries to check out our roster, the files will become corrupt and unreadable? Perhaps you think the payroll records, and all the statistics recorded by statisticians and SportsVU will suddenly become locked and only Colangelo has the key? And then they will have to call Colangelo and beg him to unlock the secrets on how to run a franchise properly?
                              None of the above.

                              I personally wold prefer not to do something AT ALL than to HAVE to leave it half done or incomplete. Same applies when I ask someone to do something for me. That person would appreciate if I allowed him/her to complete the task than being asked to stop half way.
                              Attitude Is A Choice.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                                I have always felt that Bosh was a solid player, but not a 'max player' to be built around. I think he'd be borderline to make the list of top-30 players in the NBA (I don't feel like doing a list right now) at best, plus I don't like the idea of building around a PF in this current NBA. He's one of the top PF in the league, a solid player, good teammate and was always a great team rep in the city, but I certainly don't think he's worth more than $15M per season (max would be roughly $20M+, pending the new salary cap).
                                Bosh I think is worth max money but not one a team can be built around. Miami(the way they're built) is the best example. If Bosh was on the present Raps. team along with Gay, it would be quite a team.
                                Attitude Is A Choice.

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